And what of people like me who have chosen to never create a Facebook account? How do you think that would go over??
As the corrections officer in question points out in the video, this is very dangerous ground. When you ask for someone's Facebook account as a condition of employment you are getting access to a tremendous amount of information about that person. Very likely including information such as marital status, religion, sexual orientation and the existence of children - all things which, as a matter of law, prospective employers are not allowed to ask employees in the hiring process.
If you're not allowed to ask it directly, you shouldn't be allowed to ask it indirectly either.
You say they are getting access to information about that person.
Actually, it is much worse than that. They are getting access to information about all the person's friends, including some very private information.
I might trust my friends with ages, photos, and school locations of my children, but I shouldn't have to worry about whether that same information is being given to some creepy bureaucrat working in a department of corrections office.
And to be clear, I'm not at all talking about the risk faced by a job applicant. I'm talking about the risk incurred by a friend of the person.
"Should Employers Be Allowed to Ask for Your Facebook Login?"
I say yes, they should be allowed, and you should be allowed to refuse, and they should be allowed to not hire, and you should be allowed to find a better place to work and breath a sigh of relief since you just dodged a bullet.
What recourse do you think that leaves for people whose Facebook friends do not refuse? If one of my Facebook friends allows this, they are, unbeknownst to me, sharing information that I consider private with that employer. I choose to put certain information on Facebook, trusting Facebook, its partners, and my friends with that information. I do not choose to trust random employees of random prospective places of employment with that same information, so this is a violation of my privacy expectations as a user of Facebook, and as a friend.
"You shouldn't put information into Facebook if you are afraid of that information getting out." I don't.
But people (including you, by your response) do not fully understand the risks they are taking.
No, they should not be allowed to even ask. The problem is that when some people are allowed to give up certain rights for a potential advantage in hiring, then it becomes the de facto standard that everyone has to give up that right in order to have a chance. In most industries the employer holds all the card, so that everyone will just go along with it because they feel they must in order to be considered.
You're naive if you think the "market" will correct itself such that these types of invasions of privacy are eliminated. When we're talking about people's livelihood you can't expect them to act in such a way that maximizes their rights. They act in a way that maximizes their livelihood, potentially giving up rights that they otherwise would not have. Government is the only thing able to keep employers from having that power.
How about login information to your email account(s)? Do you think they should be able to ask for that and refuse to hire if you refuse to capitulate? After all, your correspondence will give them lots of useful character information about you that would be useful for an employer.
How about your online banking login information?
Where do you draw the line? Is there any aspect of your private life that they should not be able to ask about and refuse to hire if you do not provide access?
I would think that this should be obvious, but sharing your password in such a circumstance appears prohibited by the Facebook terms of service[1]. More specifically:
You will not share your password, (or in the case of developers,
your secret key), let anyone else access your account, or do anything
else that might jeopardize the security of your account.
And there is a fantastic answer to such a question: "As a responsible worker, I take my contractual obligations seriously. The Facebook terms of service which I agreed to legally prohibit me from giving that information to anyone. I [have the terms here|can get them for you] if you would like to read them."
If they reply, "Well we want it anyway." then the next reply is "I don't understand why you are asking me to break a contract. That is unethical. Do you routinely ask employees here to perform unethical or illegal acts?"
It's a shame that people are so desperate for jobs and willing to sacrifice privacy for the illusion of security; if it weren't so, things like this would never have a chance to become real problems, because everyone would just walk out of the interview at that point. The interviewers would report to their superiors, "Everyone is running full-speed in the opposite direction when we ask for their Facebook password," and the policy would be changed almost immediately.
Basically what you're saying is, you wish privacy didn't have an economic value, which it must so long as people are willing to concede it for slightly higher wages.
This reminds me a bit of Scientology's policy of collecting and archiving secret information from their members, so that threats of blackmail could be made later on if needed.
I think a good solution to this situation is to in turn request the screener/interviewer's credentials. After all, it's no big deal right?
Great points. Rather than the interviewer, the interviewer and the board of directors and the CEO. I've done that a few times when I get requests for salary history, I ask to see theirs first. When they say that it's not relevant then I respond "Well there you go." I can't say that this tactic always works, but it doesn't really matter. I've never gone long without a job. Skills has its benefits.
Would you give a potential employer your GMail password? Hell no. Your Facebook login is not only a trove of information that employers aren't supposed to ask about, it's a login gateway to many other sites. Facebook is probably the largest delegated authentication provider on the internet, and you expect me to hand that info over?
The only person that has my Facebook login info is my wife, and she's also the only person that has my email login info. I don't care if you're the Pope, you're not getting access to any information that gives you the keys to the kingdom.
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a government job† should demand a Facebook login, because I generally feel like they (a) should be held to a higher standard, (b) involve the people's relationship with the government, which is inherently adversarial, and (c) have an outsize impact on the standards and practices used in the private sector --- so "if it's ok at the DoC, it must be OK at Bank of America".
On the other hand, in the private sector, I don't see how this is any of our business. Should employer be "allowed" to "ask" for Facebook logins? You mean, should employers be "disallowed" from asking? Of course not. And candidates should say "no" if they don't want to give the login up. Employment in the US is at will, and outside of race, nationality, religion, gender, &c, hiring is totally at the discretion of the company.
No, they should not be allowed to even ask. The problem is that when some people are allowed to give up certain rights for a potential advantage in hiring, then it becomes the de facto standard that everyone has to give up that right in order to have a chance. In most industries the employer holds all the card, so that everyone will just go along with it because they feel they must in order to be considered.
You're naive if you think the "market" will correct itself such that these types of invasions of privacy are eliminated. When we're talking about people's livelihood you can't expect them to act in such a way that maximizes their rights. They act in a way that maximizes their livelihood, potentially giving up rights that they otherwise would not have. Government is the only thing able to keep employers from having that power.
Of course it's our business, the difference between fringe cases and common procedure is whether we're willing to put up with the practice. And don't pretend that the prospective employer has no power over the applicant.
Additional nitpick: Employment statuses are generally determined at the state level.
It's equivalent to in the pre-internet era asking a job applicant to hand over all their private snail mail so that a prospective employer can read them and approve or disapprove of their private life and personal or political opinions.
Should they be allowed to ask to search your house? I'd guess this is an irrelevant question, because nobody would say "yes" to that except for the least qualified, least employable people in the market, and the kinds of businesses that hire the least qualified people don't so much care about what's in your house.
Ah, but you just shifted from asking to just doing it.
No, they should not be allowed to just do it. But should they be allowed to ask if they can search your house and private things (which is indeed comparable to requesting to be friended)? I say, yes, they should be allowed to ask, and all intelligent people that value their privacy should be allowed to say no, laugh, mock, walk out of the interview, and then post their feelings about that company on their Facebook page, or on HN, or reddit, or their personal blog so that others may be warned from wasting time applying at such a place.
... That alone isn't going to derail the Facebook juggernaut, but it might slow down people's engagement on the site as they realize maybe a private, unknown email account is a better way of sending sensitive messages.
That isn't going to happen either. It's like saying that because people are aware that smoking is a cause of cancer they'll only smoke half a cigarette.
I like what he said in the video, and he's right. Asking for this kind of information is just like asking a woman, "Are you pregnant?" Or, asking people to take "IQ tests" that favor whites. In fact you could write a law that simply said:
"An employer may not compel an applicant for any access to private information that may indirectly lead to a violation of existing Equal Opportunity Employment laws."
Ideally this law would amount to:
"Paying someone to do a job does not make them your fucking lifetime slave asshole."
Do you background checks the GOOD old-fashioned way, and get some actual results. Or, waste your time in someone's facebook account they set up specifically for you to check for this job interview.
[+] [-] btilly|15 years ago|reply
As the corrections officer in question points out in the video, this is very dangerous ground. When you ask for someone's Facebook account as a condition of employment you are getting access to a tremendous amount of information about that person. Very likely including information such as marital status, religion, sexual orientation and the existence of children - all things which, as a matter of law, prospective employers are not allowed to ask employees in the hiring process.
If you're not allowed to ask it directly, you shouldn't be allowed to ask it indirectly either.
[+] [-] natch|15 years ago|reply
Actually, it is much worse than that. They are getting access to information about all the person's friends, including some very private information.
I might trust my friends with ages, photos, and school locations of my children, but I shouldn't have to worry about whether that same information is being given to some creepy bureaucrat working in a department of corrections office.
And to be clear, I'm not at all talking about the risk faced by a job applicant. I'm talking about the risk incurred by a friend of the person.
[+] [-] bugsy|15 years ago|reply
I say yes, they should be allowed, and you should be allowed to refuse, and they should be allowed to not hire, and you should be allowed to find a better place to work and breath a sigh of relief since you just dodged a bullet.
[+] [-] natch|15 years ago|reply
"You shouldn't put information into Facebook if you are afraid of that information getting out." I don't.
But people (including you, by your response) do not fully understand the risks they are taking.
[+] [-] hackinthebochs|15 years ago|reply
You're naive if you think the "market" will correct itself such that these types of invasions of privacy are eliminated. When we're talking about people's livelihood you can't expect them to act in such a way that maximizes their rights. They act in a way that maximizes their livelihood, potentially giving up rights that they otherwise would not have. Government is the only thing able to keep employers from having that power.
[+] [-] tzs|15 years ago|reply
How about your online banking login information?
Where do you draw the line? Is there any aspect of your private life that they should not be able to ask about and refuse to hire if you do not provide access?
[+] [-] beoba|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bayareaguy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bugsy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcantor|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tptacek|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beoba|15 years ago|reply
I think a good solution to this situation is to in turn request the screener/interviewer's credentials. After all, it's no big deal right?
[+] [-] bugsy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cheald|15 years ago|reply
The only person that has my Facebook login info is my wife, and she's also the only person that has my email login info. I don't care if you're the Pope, you're not getting access to any information that gives you the keys to the kingdom.
[+] [-] tptacek|15 years ago|reply
On the other hand, in the private sector, I don't see how this is any of our business. Should employer be "allowed" to "ask" for Facebook logins? You mean, should employers be "disallowed" from asking? Of course not. And candidates should say "no" if they don't want to give the login up. Employment in the US is at will, and outside of race, nationality, religion, gender, &c, hiring is totally at the discretion of the company.
†(at least, one that doesn't require clearance)
[+] [-] hackinthebochs|15 years ago|reply
You're naive if you think the "market" will correct itself such that these types of invasions of privacy are eliminated. When we're talking about people's livelihood you can't expect them to act in such a way that maximizes their rights. They act in a way that maximizes their livelihood, potentially giving up rights that they otherwise would not have. Government is the only thing able to keep employers from having that power.
[+] [-] beoba|15 years ago|reply
Additional nitpick: Employment statuses are generally determined at the state level.
[+] [-] motters|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kilimanjaro|15 years ago|reply
Where do we draw the line between a real or virtual invasion of privacy?
[+] [-] tptacek|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bugsy|15 years ago|reply
No, they should not be allowed to just do it. But should they be allowed to ask if they can search your house and private things (which is indeed comparable to requesting to be friended)? I say, yes, they should be allowed to ask, and all intelligent people that value their privacy should be allowed to say no, laugh, mock, walk out of the interview, and then post their feelings about that company on their Facebook page, or on HN, or reddit, or their personal blog so that others may be warned from wasting time applying at such a place.
[+] [-] verysimple|15 years ago|reply
... That alone isn't going to derail the Facebook juggernaut, but it might slow down people's engagement on the site as they realize maybe a private, unknown email account is a better way of sending sensitive messages.
That isn't going to happen either. It's like saying that because people are aware that smoking is a cause of cancer they'll only smoke half a cigarette.
[+] [-] beoba|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zedshaw|15 years ago|reply
"An employer may not compel an applicant for any access to private information that may indirectly lead to a violation of existing Equal Opportunity Employment laws."
Ideally this law would amount to:
"Paying someone to do a job does not make them your fucking lifetime slave asshole."
[+] [-] beej71|15 years ago|reply
Do you background checks the GOOD old-fashioned way, and get some actual results. Or, waste your time in someone's facebook account they set up specifically for you to check for this job interview.
[+] [-] thyrsus|15 years ago|reply
Of course it violates the Facebook terms of service. Handing over your password already broke that.