At some point, I hope we can get past this argument. Learning a new language for rudimentary tasks is not particularly hard. I'm not sure why people decided that JavaScript of all things was what we had to all latch onto.
I have a friend that wanted to learn programming. I suggested Python, but they wanted to go directly into making web apps.
I don't think they finished the class. Javascript just has too many weird concepts (what's the difference between null and undefined and false and 0 and "") that distract from the mechanics of learning what a computer program is, and I also think that the desire to make something others can use too early on leads to going too quickly through the basics ("yeah yeah, add numbers, who needs to do that") and are then overwhelmed when things like objects and promises show up. You have to crawl before you walk.
I think if I were going to introduce someone to programming today, I'd probably pick CircuitPython. Python is simple and makes sense almost immediately. Doing it on a microcontroller lets you make something "neat" almost immediately, and you're spared a lot of the complicated externalities of the real world. (HTML, CSS, dev servers, npm modules, etc.) Some day you can learn all that stuff, but you need to know about if statements and loops and variables first.
I also miss the days of BASIC and Logo. I think those would be fun for the younger generation... but now everyone just wants to make a mobile app and those don't get you there. Ahh, for simpler times.
Since we are in a VBA thread, I'd argue that VBA is a great introduction itself into programming; especially with its macro recorder.
Progamming by clicking (in the spreadsheets) and seeing how the code changes instantly is arguably better for beginners than what normal programming languages usually offer.
You're right, we should automate everything with Rust \s
People both over and underestimate the ability of users to learn a language for quick scripting/automation. Languages like Bash, Python, JS, VBA... they're extremely accessible for quick and dirty work, which is why people latch on to them compared to others.
Because it’s the new Franca lingua of programming. Everyone knows it whether they like it or not. There’s value in not have to switch context while programming. Also there’s typescript which makes JavaScript usable. I don’t like JavaScript either but typescript isn’t terrible and the ecosystem is much bigger than any Microsoft programming ecosystem which results in less reinventions of the wheel. MS has also been treating JavaScript as a 1st class citizen on Windows
> MS has also been treating JavaScript as a 1st class citizen on Windows
Eh what now?
The ActiveSctipt host for JScript (for shell and Classic ASP scripting) hasn’t been updated since Windows 2000, and for shell scripting in-general Microsoft has been (“was” at this point?) pushing PowerShell since its demo at PDC 2003.
WinJS for Windows 8 was a huge waste of money for the company that people always seem to forget.
And their Chakra JS engine is effectively now retired given Chromium+V8 replaced EdgeHTML earlier this year.
The only places Microsoft has been using JS are for their current set of Electron-based applications (VS Code, Skype, MS Teams, Azure Storage Explorer, etc). TypeScript is nice and all (and I really love it and I hope it brings algebraic typing and structural typing to more languages) but it’s only popular because Google, of all people, adopted it for Angular.
I suspect that we are reaching peak javascript, that wasm will open the browser to all languages and that javascript will compete based on its own merits rather than its historical monopoly.
It kind of won in a lot of ways... biggest package ecosystem. The most developers using it. Highly optimized runtime. Supports the use of OO, Functional and Procedural paradigms. Able to run in the browser for online versions. Cross platform and nearly ubiquitous.
I don't understand how you can be proud of having the most unusable package ecosystem. Sure the numbers are large but can you actually safely use those packages? No, you can't. Just add a single library and you will include a huge amount of transitive dependencies from random package maintainers over which you have no control.
Other languages like Java or Rust have the same problem but this is a problem with exponential impact and NPM is the leader in tree depth. Having a 10 layer deep dependency tree is far worse than a 7 layer deep dependency tree. When I look at the dependency tree of my own projects more than 50% of the libraries are first party and from a vendor with a good reputation. (spring, apache commons, tomcat). The rest are less trust worthy but each project has a small opensource community that consists of more than just a random guy that may randomly throw emotional fits like in the leftpad scenario.
jrockway|6 years ago
I don't think they finished the class. Javascript just has too many weird concepts (what's the difference between null and undefined and false and 0 and "") that distract from the mechanics of learning what a computer program is, and I also think that the desire to make something others can use too early on leads to going too quickly through the basics ("yeah yeah, add numbers, who needs to do that") and are then overwhelmed when things like objects and promises show up. You have to crawl before you walk.
I think if I were going to introduce someone to programming today, I'd probably pick CircuitPython. Python is simple and makes sense almost immediately. Doing it on a microcontroller lets you make something "neat" almost immediately, and you're spared a lot of the complicated externalities of the real world. (HTML, CSS, dev servers, npm modules, etc.) Some day you can learn all that stuff, but you need to know about if statements and loops and variables first.
I also miss the days of BASIC and Logo. I think those would be fun for the younger generation... but now everyone just wants to make a mobile app and those don't get you there. Ahh, for simpler times.
Tarsul|6 years ago
Progamming by clicking (in the spreadsheets) and seeing how the code changes instantly is arguably better for beginners than what normal programming languages usually offer.
unlinked_dll|6 years ago
People both over and underestimate the ability of users to learn a language for quick scripting/automation. Languages like Bash, Python, JS, VBA... they're extremely accessible for quick and dirty work, which is why people latch on to them compared to others.
bilekas|6 years ago
I did chuckle a bit.
Accessibility is key, so is documentation, so is flexibility, but again I re-itterate, the right tool for the job matters most.
chaostheory|6 years ago
DaiPlusPlus|6 years ago
Eh what now?
The ActiveSctipt host for JScript (for shell and Classic ASP scripting) hasn’t been updated since Windows 2000, and for shell scripting in-general Microsoft has been (“was” at this point?) pushing PowerShell since its demo at PDC 2003.
WinJS for Windows 8 was a huge waste of money for the company that people always seem to forget.
And their Chakra JS engine is effectively now retired given Chromium+V8 replaced EdgeHTML earlier this year.
The only places Microsoft has been using JS are for their current set of Electron-based applications (VS Code, Skype, MS Teams, Azure Storage Explorer, etc). TypeScript is nice and all (and I really love it and I hope it brings algebraic typing and structural typing to more languages) but it’s only popular because Google, of all people, adopted it for Angular.
cm2187|6 years ago
tracker1|6 years ago
imtringued|6 years ago
I don't understand how you can be proud of having the most unusable package ecosystem. Sure the numbers are large but can you actually safely use those packages? No, you can't. Just add a single library and you will include a huge amount of transitive dependencies from random package maintainers over which you have no control.
Other languages like Java or Rust have the same problem but this is a problem with exponential impact and NPM is the leader in tree depth. Having a 10 layer deep dependency tree is far worse than a 7 layer deep dependency tree. When I look at the dependency tree of my own projects more than 50% of the libraries are first party and from a vendor with a good reputation. (spring, apache commons, tomcat). The rest are less trust worthy but each project has a small opensource community that consists of more than just a random guy that may randomly throw emotional fits like in the leftpad scenario.