[throwaway_tech]

The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain.

"Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result in ketosis, in protein rich diets your body will convert the protein to glucose which will continue to be the primary fuel for the cells in the brain/body.

If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones.

[bad_user]

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones.

I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I've also seen values going over 4 mmol/L.

In spite of popular belief, nothing happens, there's no magic at the end of that rainbow for most people. If you felt anything different, there's a high likelihood it was just self suggestion, aka placebo.

Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two (aka starvation ketosis). People with a healthy metabolism cycle in and out of ketosis all the time.

Also the idea that your microbiome has to change and your body/brain to adapt for you to feel any better and that it takes months ... is a complete myth. Your body takes only mere days to adjust to any dietary strategy. Also the dreaded keto flu is just dehydration from all the lost glycogen, which pulls a lot of water on its way out.

[_brnu]

I actually agree with most all of your posts. The one big difference, though, in my opinion, is that when adapted to a very low carbohydrate diet, it's actually easier for me to not eat. That's it. To me, it's the lone advantage. It's not about the palatability of the low-carb meals. It's that I just seem to be less hungry. I can skip a meal and it's no big deal. When I'm higher carb, missing a meal takes a way bigger toll.

One other thing I'd offer -- for long endurance activities at higher heart rates (e.g., cycling in zone 4 for more than an hour), you absolutely have to supplement with carbs. You can go a long time in Zone 3 on a low carb diet, but as exertion increases, you burn through those sugar stores and bonk. I've tested this repeatedly. In case it's helpful to others, you can consume quite a bit of sugar on a hard ride and be right back in ketosis hours later as your muscles take up the glucose first.

[orange8]

Sorry it did not work for you as an individual, but turning that around to say that anyone else with a more positive experience is just placebo is a bit of a logical fallacy. Why do you think your own personal experience should be the one source of truth for the whole universe? Don't you know the 7 billion people alive all have unique bodies that respond to things differently?

Have you tried anything else health-wise (diets, medicine, exercise plan etc)after Keto? And is it working? If it is, its most likely just a placebo and not really beneficial in of itself. Thats according to the crux of your argument: if something works, its very likely just a placebo.

[ctoscano]

> most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two

There are two claims here that are pretty important and contrary to my understanding and experience: 1) Liver is depleted after usual sleep 2) Fasting is the fastest way to enter ketosis

Even when practicing a very low carb diet your liver is "topped up" through gluconeogenesis while you are sleeping.

If by ketosis you mean the body is producing enough ketones to power itself than the fastest way I know of kickstarting that process is not having carbs for 6 hours then going for a run or lifting heavy weights.

You don't need to starve yourself, you just need to put your body in a scenario where the energy demands overtake the available energy in the form of blood glucose (and strain the stores in the muscle and liver).

[wtetzner]

> In spite of popular belief, nothing happens, there's no magic at the end of that rainbow for most people. If you felt anything different, there's a high likelihood it was just self suggestion, aka placebo.

I absolutely noticed a change, and there's no way it's just a placebo. The change I've noticed is that I don't get hungry nearly as quickly as I do when I'm eating carbs, and I don't get "hangry" anymore, either. I do still get hungry, but it's a much more mild effect.

I also used to get headaches quite frequently, especially if I waited too long to eat. That has also stopped since I started doing keto.

> Also the idea that your microbiome has to change and your body/brain to adapt for you to feel any better and that it takes months ... is a complete myth. Your body takes only mere days to adjust to any dietary strategy. Also the dreaded keto flu is just dehydration from all the lost glycogen, which pulls a lot of water on its way out.

Is this something you have a source for, or just something you believe?

> Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two (aka starvation ketosis). People with a healthy metabolism cycle in and out of ketosis all the time.

I'm not sure I buy this. Usually if I've been eating carbs for a while, and try to get back into ketosis, it takes me a day or two. If you don't eat for 16 hours, then sure, maybe you enter ketosis near the end, but most people don't go that long without food.

[LanceH]

So anecdote extrapolated to everyone and anyone who disagrees is just imagining it.

Not being hungry until meal time? Placebo effect caused me to not want a nap in the afternoon? Did I imagine the 60 pounds weight loss, too?

[tracker1]

It's also a large part electrolyte imbalance from some dehydration... drinking more water with salts can help a lot. It isn't magic, but can help with glucose control without medication, or without as much... eating enough protein, which keto people tend to get plenty, also has higher satiety, which can lead to eating less. Going to 1-2 meals a day will have mostly the same effects.

I think keto and carnivore are really better depending on one's specific metabolic and/or autoimmune issues. For most people, eating less processed crap (junk/fast food and trans fats particularly), less modern grains, less seed oils. Instead, having a well balanced diet which imho should include at least eggs, butter and fish is a great starting point.

[runjake]

You're spending a lot of time in here making accusations of myths and placebos, but none of your counters offer any form of citation.

You'd make much stronger points if you included citations. If your points are in fact correct, they would be highly useful.

[Jach]

Your body is composed of many hierarchical control systems. Some of them have feedback loops that imply minimum adaptation times longer than days. For a dietary related one (keto), one such adaptation is liver efficiency to produce fewer ketones + kidney efficiency to filter out uric acid. People who never have had gout but go on a keto diet sometimes get gout flareups because of a uric acid spike from the diet change, and it takes a number of weeks for uric acid levels to subside: https://www.virtahealth.com/blog/keto-adapted

[com2kid]

There is plenty of work showing that physical endurance increases after extended periods on keto. Athletes have carefully tracked their performance numbers day by day and demonstrated real changes.

And as someone who participates in activities that require large amounts of endurance, I know on keto my ability to perform for extended periods of time is higher. These aren't "I think" numbers, they are "polar heart rate monitor strapped to my chest" numbers.

The very nature of keto leads to improved endurance, fat is a much more plentiful energy source than glucose, it may be less efficient (lifting heavy on keto is a well known problem), but it /never/ runs out. If someone is doing an activity that doesn't cause excessive lactic acid build up or complete muscle fatigue, then a keto will give an endurance advantage.

[spion]

This depends a lot on the individual. I would suggest it to anyone who often has post-meal slumps, for example - its likely to work wonders for them.

[crazygringo]

Your last paragraph is just unbelievably flat-out wrong. Maybe you didn't suffer from keto flu, but it can last for a couple weeks to a couple months (my case) and has zero to do with dehydration.

You're literally retraining your body to efficiently burn stored body fat when it never had to much before. This takes time. The idea that it happens in days is laughable, as is the idea that your microbiome adjusts that quickly.

Please don't spread blatant misinformation.

[sizzle]

Why did you give up? How we your energy levels? Did you drop weight easily?

[throwaway_tech]

>Also most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight

This is true...but it gets to my point, just because your body begins breaking down fat and producing ketones (as shown in your tests) does not mean your cells have adapted to using ketones as fuel, that requires the body to adapt.

Based on your numbers you were clearly breaking down fat and making ketones, but based on your not feeling any different I'd say your cells never adapted to ketones as the primary fuel source. This is the same for people depleting their glucose stores over night, yes they are in "ketosis", meaning they are breaking down fat and producing ketones, but that does not mean their cells are efficiently running on ketones.

My guess with you, not knowing more, is you are pretty inactive. At least I would be surprised to learn you engage in lets say an hour of cardio 4-5 times a week. I am not saying keto is the end all be all, or that everyone prefers it, but I have not met anyone who does aerobic cardio and experimented with Ketosis and not experienced a different (again good or bad). On the other hand I have met many people who tried Keto and never noticed any difference, like you describe, and the commonality seems to be they were inactive.

[teilo]

It is true that ketosis is more than low carb, but Gluconeogensis has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is a lot of wrong information out there about GNG.

GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. GNG provides enough glucose for the tissues that cannot run on ketones (such as the kidneys). Without GNG, ketosis would not be possible. In fact, ketones regulate GNG, and prevent it from exceeding the needed maintenance levels.

Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis.

What prevent ketosis in stubborn cases? Insulin resistance. To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress. The process can be dramatically sped up with intermittent fasting.

[amanaplanacanal]

Thank you! I see claims all the time that eating too much protein will kick you out of ketosis, without any actual science to back it up.

[throwaway_tech]

>GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose.

I never said GNG kicks people out of ketosis, I said protein to fat ratios will prohibit ketosis. Yes, in ketosis your body continues to produce minimal amounts of glucose, I never said anything to the contrary.

However, GNG has a lot to do with ketosis vis-a-vis protein to fat ratios, protein to fat intake can not be to high or it will kick you out of ketosis because of GNG

>Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis.

If you over consume fat or carbs, they get stored as fat in fat cells. What happens when you over consume protein? Protein can not be stored as fat, it must first be converted to glucose, which the body will try to burn before it is stored in fat cells. This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet (again I never said the body stops producing glucose from protein in that situation, but the glucose production is minimal in ketosis because of the ratios and ketones remain the primary fuel source).

>To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress.

While generally true and correct, I can even come up with examples where this breaks down...whey oxalate being a perfect example. Whey oxalate will typically have 25g of protein and may have as low as 1 gram of carbs, but Whey oxalate will spike insulin in most people and throw most people out of ketosis.

[uberduper]

> in protein rich diets your body will convert the protein to glucose which will continue to be the primary fuel for the cells in the brain/body.

This is completely incorrect. Gluconeogenesis is stimulated by the pancreas releasing glucagon in response to low blood sugar. GNG happens in everyone regardless of diet when blood sugar is too low. It has nothing at all to do with the amount of dietary protein you consume.

GNG happens in people in ketosis pretty constantly without stopping ketosis.

[skizm]

How does working out at a high intensity work when in a state of Ketosis? I lift weights and/or do HIIT 5x per week and occasionally add running on top of that. I've always been weary of going low carb or trying a keto diet because I feel like I just won't have the energy to continue my training regimen at its current intensity. The typical advice is to eat your allocated carbs 1-2 hours prior to your workout, however I feel like by not getting the right amount of carbs post-workout I'm basically wasting my time in the gym at best, and at worst asking for an injury due to not being able to recover completely in time for the next workout.

Thoughts?

[throwaway_tech]

I run marathons and prefer running in ketosis. In ketosis I will follow a long run with some protein for muscle recovery with fats just to maintain ratios rather than carbs to refill depleted glucose stores.

For lifting/HIIT training ketosis may not be ideal. I have done it and its fine, basically I swap whey for hemp protein powder and continue using creatine post workout.

I think for most people unless they are competing or trying to gain mass they would really like the results of ketosis and lifting. You will lean out (both fat loss and less water retention) and maintain muscle mass, don't be afraid of losing your gains. On the down side the adjustment period will probably be a little longer/harder than a relatively inactive person and initially you will likely notice a decline in energy in the gym, but it will be temporary (again your body is learning to use ketones as primary fuel source and that takes time). That said once you adjust you won't find any trouble lifting heavy or running sprints, in fact you will probably be able to go longer. One benefit you really notice is lack of inflammation and soreness following workouts, in my experience the body recovers faster, though this is still about the actual food you consume (healthy omega 3s and green leafy vegetables) and not some automatic benefit of ketosis.

[teraku]

Don't go low-carb. There is no need, it's not unhealthy. Especially if you are sporty (as it sounds).

The current state of affairs is: If you are insulin resistant (either because of genetics, obesity, whatever) then having a low-carb high fat diet is better for you. If your insulin resistance is high, then your pancreas produces much more insulin, meaning your cells will start storing energy instead of using it up. If this keeps up for a long period, your fat tissues, which are supposed to be your fat/energy storage, will fill up and your body (or rather the particles transporting the transformed sugar from the liver) will start sticking to your organs. This starts inflammations and makes your organs weaker, and in turn also raising your insulin resistance. And these malfunctions also spread to the brain and can cause alzheimer and the like. The exact chain of effects is not yet confirmed, so from here on it's a lot of speculation. But if you now are trying to lose weight, and you just reduce calories, but keeping a "high-carb/low-fat" diet, then you will be hungry. Because either you have too little protein to feed yourself, or you eat enough protein and you automatically eat too many carbs again, producing more and more insulin. This is how high-fat diets come in handy, as they don't spur liver activity and don't impact insulin as much. This in turn means you can reach ketosis, starting to work the fat on your organs (which is a lot more dangerous then some fat in fat tissues like your belly). Your body will recover, inflammation will go away and your insulin sensitivity goes up again (unless you are genetically diabetic). And with a healthy body your brain can also recover.

The studies for this are still coming in, but I find this explanation very logic and even this study, although the article is weirdly phrased, plays into it.

Some remarks at the end: - If you do a lot of sports, your muscles use energy even without insulin - Glucose is spread through the body, while fructose is directly converted to fat (tissue) - Sport also increases insulin sensitivity - Diets are very personal, try out things for yourself and see how it works! - Protein is also increasing insulin (since protein intake signals the body to start storing energy, i. e. protein into muscle cells)

[lhl]

There is a keto adaptation [1] period of at least 6-8 weeks where you might take a hit, but there are several studies that show that it's generally not a concern.

Cipryan, Lukas, Daniel J. Plews, Alessandro Ferretti, Phil B. Maffetone, and Paul B. Laursen. “Effects of a 4-Week Very Low-Carbohydrate Diet on High-Intensity Interval Training Responses.” Journal of Sports Science & Medicine 17, no. 2 (May 14, 2018): 259–68.

Greene, David A., Benjamin J. Varley, Timothy B. Hartwig, Phillip Chapman, and Michael Rigney. “A Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Reduces Body Weight Without Compromising Performance in Powerlifting and Olympic Weightlifting Athletes.” The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research Publish Ahead of Print (October 17, 2018). https://doi.org/10.1519/JSC.0000000000002904.

Paoli, Antonio, Keith Grimaldi, Dominic D’Agostino, Lorenzo Cenci, Tatiana Moro, Antonino Bianco, and Antonio Palma. “Ketogenic Diet Does Not Affect Strength Performance in Elite Artistic Gymnasts.” Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 9 (July 26, 2012): 34. https://doi.org/10.1186/1550-2783-9-34.

Kephart, Wesley C., Coree D. Pledge, Paul A. Roberson, Petey W. Mumford, Matthew A. Romero, Christopher B. Mobley, Jeffrey S. Martin, et al. “The Three-Month Effects of a Ketogenic Diet on Body Composition, Blood Parameters, and Performance Metrics in CrossFit Trainees: A Pilot Study.” Sports 6, no. 1 (January 9, 2018). https://doi.org/10.3390/sports6010001.

If you're interested in the topic of human performance and ketosis, I enjoy Volek's talks - here's one from a relatively recent Jumpstart event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeS_dhM8dsY

Anecdotally, I find my workout recovery to be much better on keto/fasting diet, but all my markers (and overall inflammation) has improved so much and I'm being mindful of other aspects like stress, sleep, etc that it's hard to necessarily pin down to one cause.

[1] https://blog.virtahealth.com/keto-adapted/

[Enginerrrd]

It seems people have pretty individualized responses to this. In general, the research shows decreases in performance except for endurance events. Personally, I found my recovery was great on keto. Better than normal even. I was doing a strength cycle so my weights were increasing at the time and I was getting stronger. I actually felt better in the gym, and I lift pretty heavy. A lot of the aches and pains in my joints seemed to go away. Downsides: my gut felt weird, and you have work hard at getting adequate fiber and stuff. Also, it's hard to eat socially.

I was eating a higher protein diet than usually considered keto, but urinalysis confirmed ketosis.

[ebg13]

> How does working out at a high intensity work when in a state of Ketosis?

I've done this. You get tired much faster, you will not be able to sprint for nearly as long, your maximum lift significantly decreases, you hit the muscle fatigue point (can't lift again unless you lower the weight) very quickly.

The usual solution among keto lifters is to have a carbload cheat day once per week _or_ to carb spike with I think (it's been a while) pure glucose syrup a measured amount just before your workout according to how much you think you'll actually use during the workout. The cheat day in practice works pretty well, because if you're slamming your body at the gym every day you can get back into ketosis very quickly after the initial induction phase is done, so you end up with a couple of days of keto per week but not the full week.

[sputknick]

Not the author, but I have experience with this. For me it takes about a week of slugishness before my body adjusts. Once I'm adapted, my performance is actually better. This goes for heavy weights, low weight/high rep weights, and cardio.

[wirrbel]

You have a very stable energy supply on keto. I am on keto right now and went for a run in the morning. For lifting weights and muscle building I am not quite sure whether I can give advice, but have a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/ and the subreddits community as this subreddit is focused on working out with keto.

[ravenstine]

Depends on the diet. Low carb on its own can work because you can eat between 20 and 50 grams of carbs in a day, but ketosis is limited.(which might be okay depending on one's goals)

Keto is shit for working out, in my personal opinion. Some people claim they can have effective workouts on keto, but I hate it, and a lot of others have a hard time having energy when training on keto. Keto is good for weight loss, and I lost 60 lbs in 5 months doing keto, but it's total crap for building muscle, in my experience.

The best compromise, in my experience, is fasting. I'm talking ideally 48 hours between meals. I'll keep it short because I've been spamming threads about this topic recently; because fasting forces the body to solely burn through its glycogen stores, and then body fat once that runs out, ketosis becomes easier to achieve even if there are some carbs in meals, and the presence of carbs in meals provides glycogen for when you workout and train your muscles. I believe this is needed, especially for HIIT. In my experience, you can eat a modest amount of carbs when breaking a fast and still manage to get back into ketosis(fat burning mode!) within a few days. It totally outperforms keto in that it often takes people several days, possibly weeks, to get into deep ketosis.

That said, a low carb, but not necessarily keto, diet can work for someone doing HIIT. Everyone's body is different. A person may find that they want more carbs in order to be effective in the gym, but if they're trying to get lean, then that can compromise their goal, in which case they should reduce their eating frequency a la fasting. A person who is either building muscle or maintaining body composition may not need to do a low carb diet at all.

[wpietri]

I confess I don't measure ketosis, and it sounds like we do different sorts of workout. But I do the intermittent fasting variant known as eTRF; I generally eat 7 am - 1 pm. I was worried about how that would interact with my runs, which I usually do in the morning before eating. Enough people online were positive about it that I tried it out and it has been great. On recent Sundays I've done 2-hour runs with little or no food. My times improved and I felt amazing. And the meal after running? Fantastic!

[tokamak-teapot]

I do similar exercise and when I started keto 8 months ago I had a dip in performance for about 3 weeks.

I do a similar set of exercises on the same day/time every week and it ends with 30 seconds of burpees.

Prior to going on keto I was doing 16 burpees in that 30 seconds. After the first week I was down to twelve. After a couple more weeks I was back to 16 - and two weeks after that I was on 17. I’m now on 18.

I’ve gone from 103kg to 88kg in that time, so it seems likely the weight loss has been a (or the) factor in the improved performance.

[rtkaratekid]

I’ve done it. I got extremely ripped and looked great, but actual performance suffered and I started feeling pretty terrible. I like how carbs solve those problems for me. However, if I’m doing 6+ hour efforts, I just eat fats and around hour 7 or 8 I’m still burning hot when I used to burn out when I was feeding with carbs.

[wtetzner]

I think it really depends on how long you've been in ketosis, and how well adapted you body is to running on fat.

At first you will absolutely have less energy, but it seems like the more fat-adapted you are, the more energy you'll have. At some point it seems like you actually have more energy to work out.

[timbit42]

Sami Inkonen and his SO rowed to Hawaii on a keto diet but were fat adapted first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v

[teraku]

For my understanding this is mostly attributed to insuline resistance vs sensitivity. As you get older and overexposed to sugar, your resistance raises and in order to reverse a lot of the internal inflammations your body has produced from over-intake of sugar you need to force ketosis and burn calories with a low-carb diet. This in turn helps reduce internal fat and repair organ functions, fundamentally restoring hormone production and refreshing your brain as well.

It does not mean that carbs in general are toxic, nor that this diet is recommended for everybody! Diets are very personal, it just becomes more and more common because sugar is added everywhere, people are getting older and older and obesity is a global problem. As such, most people are very insulin resistant and work better with low-carb/high-fat diets.

This headline is one of the reasons there is so much misinformation in food and diets

[rconti]

Anything that requires me to radically change my diet to experiment with myself "just to see", that takes a minimum of 2-3 months, is a hard pass. It's just not that interesting to most of us for a vaguely hand-wavey possibly useful experiment.

[ryanSrich]

Full-on keto may not be worth it, but I would highly suggest removing most carbs from your diet (<= 30g per meal). You'll feel completely different within 5 days. This is especially noticeable after the age of 30. I have no scientific backing or research for this, but I've had a number of friends and family make this small change and every single one has not gone back. It's not even that difficult if you already have a somewhat healthy diet.

[wpietri]

I think that's fine; not everybody has to be an early adopter of everything. If what you're doing is working for you, keep doing it!

But for people who feel vaguely but persistently like things aren't working anymore, I really recommend experimenting with diet. I've tried a variety of things over the years, and have ended up with a combination that has made my life hugely better: better mood, more even-tempered, much more energetic, and physical exercise has gotten a lot more fun. I recently went back to my old diet for a week and felt like warmed-over garbage.

But yes, expect it will take 1-3 months for your body and habits to really adapt. E.g., when I quit refined carbs, I experience 1-3 weeks of withdrawal symptoms. Headaches, low energy, enormously cranky. And it's even longer for the habits to really get established, so I stop feeling like I'm missing out on the old things.

[collyw]

I was about to ask if intermittent fasting would have the same effects as I get the impression that its a healthier way of getting into ketosis.

(When I look, I don't see negative effects associated with IF, and I do with keto diets. The research changes a lot and the conclusions don't seem definitive, but I thought someone on here might have an educated opinion on the matter).

[ypcx]

In my personal case I'm not really able to enter and maintain good ketosis levels without also fasting intermittently.

Intermittent fasting is key to enabling me to lower my caloric input because of the momentum of the fasting phase carried over into the eating phase, e.g. smaller stomach and more effective metabolism. I currently fast about 12 hours per day (including the sleep phase), which doesn't sound like much but with the lowered caloric input it's actually pretty good. I can go longer easily when the circumstances demand it, and after crossing 16 hours I actually stop experiencing hunger completely. I plan to extend the fasting periods in the future, if easy and convenient.

As for whether ketosis is necessary - I believe I would not be able to fast intermittently without it, or at least not comfortably, which is necessary for any lifestyle change to be sustainable.

I'm not aware of any negative effects of being in ketosis for prolonged periods of time, and quite the opposite. I don't crave sugary foods anymore, and I dislike anything with even a trace of sweetness. I was surprised to discover how good the body really is at detecting what food is good for it, once in ketosis.

My main food sources currently are avocado, egg, tahini and drinks based on almond or walnut milk. I'm also using vitamin and mineral supplements, mostly in fluid forms. I'm 42 and I wish I had known about keto as early in my life as possible, not when I was forced to explore it due to declining health. Ketosis gives you a stable level of energy through the day and allows you to fully focus on life and the tasks at hand.

[wirrbel]

I do water fasting (rather "bone broth fasting" like Dr. Jason Fung advocates in his talks on youtube and in his books), and also have done and will do keto when I am not fasting.

I am not quite sure about the "health" class. So roughly speaking I am obese and I do think with every 3 kilograms I loose per month, I am healthier. So keto as a tool for loosing weight is really without a doubt healthy. The correlations between being overweight and associated risks are MUCH stronger than the correlations between food and associated risks.

Now, if you dig deeper into books on keto and fasting by doctors, you see how fragile certain conclusions are that are now the consensus opinion in nutritional science. I am a data-scientist, trained biophysicist and I know I am not an epidemiologist and not a biologist, but I can tell "creative statistics" apart from not-suspicious ones, and a lot of central nutritional science studies that triggered the fat-fear seem to be highly deficient from a statistical perspective, hardly proving any causality.

So I tend to be rather sceptical about dietary advice after 1950 unless it has been (a) shown in humans and not just in experiments with animals (b) based on studies that do interventions, i.e. change the behavior of humans rather than just surveying or asking what people do.

What I also find fascinating is, how the fasting community and the keto community often reach similar conclusion while actually being kind of different communities advocating for different "resolutions".

Anyway, what I was trying to say: If keto and fasting helps the normal weight range at steady 3kg/month, I do think it is healthy for me, when I am in a normal weight range, the priorities may change from "weight loss is really important" to other aspects.

[cagenut]

Your body goes into ketosis when it "runs out" of blood-sugar for long enough. It usually takes me 2 - 3 days of staying below 30 net grams (i'm a larger guy, for many people it requires going below 20).

IF can be a part of that, in terms of helping you to control your eating and making the time-period at the end of those 2 - 3 days happen maybe a half-day sooner, but fundamentally it doesn't change carbs are carbs.

Also you might find the relationship almost works the other way. Ketosis makes IF much easier. I haven't eaten breakfast in years. I don't even really consider that an IF regimen as much as like... once you get rid of the habit for a month or two you completely don't miss it and forget why you bothered.

[koolba]

Vigorous exercise, in particular sustained cardio, is the surest way to burn through your glycogen stores. Combined with intermittent fasting and a near-zero carb diet, it’s the fastest way to resume ketosis.

[jvanderbot]

Yes. Perhaps stronger effects w IF, according to this.

https://www.businessinsider.com/fasting-diet-ketosis-brain-b...

[wyager]

Everyone I know who is on a carnivore diet has a high enough fat:protein ratio to stay in ketosis most of/all the time. The value of that seems to be pretty common wisdom among carnivores.

[throwaway_tech]

It is possible, I have done it myself eating a lot of eggs and fatty red meat. Also, in my case I was also already in ketosis for an extended period of time, meaning my microbiome and cells were primed for ketosis.

That said I have also done carnivore and also not been in ketosis, which I think is probably the norm for most people on carnivore because the protein/fat ratios aren't right.

The commonality in ketosis carnivore and non-ketosis carnivore is removal of refined sugar/carbs which means no insulin spikes, which means steady levels of energy without crashing.

[1MachineElf]

Unless one has too much lean meat. The body will convert excess protien into carbs. It's better to stick with fatty cuts only.

[consp]

I have but in my case it is not caused by continued low carbon diet and should be avoided and is not so nice due all the side effects it has. Everyone who takes any form of diabetic medication should ask their physician about the consequences as it might interfere with the medication or require adjustment and can cause acidosis even if you have normal glucose levels. On the other hand, especially for type 2 diabetics, there is some indication it might be beneficial (if done properly and coordinated).

[wirrbel]

Ketoacidosis is of course a medical condition and not something one seeks out.

Ketosis is fundamentally different, your bodies mode of metabolizing (body) fat in the state of fasting, which can also be provoked when eating a high-fat moderate protein and <20-30g carbohydrates diet.

And yes, asking a physician may be a good idea if you suffer under certain conditions. Sometimes it may be valuable to find a physician that has knowledge on keto-diets, because that's not really something every physician learns about as a dietary choice.

[hellofunk]

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself.

How do you do that? If the low-carb diet isn't enough, what is?

[kaibee]

Low carb is generally considered to be under 100g carbs/day. Ketosis requires under 20g carbs/day.

[CuriouslyC]

Fasting

[text70]

I am having trouble agreeing with the statement that "...your body will convert the protein to glucose..."

Could you elaborate on that logic?

[pc86]

This[0] is a good starting point. Dietary protein can readily be converted to glucose in the body and either stored as fat or used as energy.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3636610/

[letharion]

While several people refer to gluconeogenesis, to the best of my knowledge we _can_ make glucose from protein, but rarely do in practice. I have yet to see anyone convincingly show that we do.

Also check out diet doctors take on it which refers to actual studies. "Does protein adversely affect blood sugar?" https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein

[johnkpaul]

This is a very well understood pathway in biochemistry called gluconeonesis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

[jnwatson]

A few parts of your body can't operate on ketones, so there's a backup mechanism to produce glucose from protein (from muscle breakdown, if necessary) called gluconeogenesis.

However, There's no evidence I've see that gluconeogenesis can kick you out of ketosis. As far as I know, gluconeogensis is demand-driven, not supply-driven, so there won't be any extra glucose running around for your ketone-consuming cells to use, regardless of your protein intake.

Disclaimer: I'm not a nutritionist or biologist.

[dnhz]

"The production of glucose from glucogenic amino acids involves these amino acids being converted to alpha keto acids and then to glucose, with both processes occurring in the liver. This mechanism predominates during catabolysis, rising as fasting and starvation increase in severity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid

[Dumblydorr]

The body can use protein to make glucose, it only will switch into that mode under low carbohydrate conditions like fasting or very low carb diets. It's less energy efficient of a pathway though.

[_vn5r]

gluconeogenesis

[whiddershins]

I would like a citation on the protein to glucose claim.

My understanding is the body would much rather run on ketones than go down that path.

[wtetzner]

My understanding is that the body will convert protein to Glucose when needed, but it is very carefully regulated, and will prefer ketones for cells that can run on them. However, some cells require glucose, and gluconeogenesis is important for that if you're eating low carb/in ketosis.

[lanternslight]

No citation, but If you think about it it makes sense: is you have no fat left, and aren't ingesting enough calories, your body would rather burn muscle than organs.

[ebg13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

[simonebrunozzi]

Any specific reading on how to get into ketosis that you would suggest? Something that you find scientifically sound?

[projektfu]

https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

[lanternslight]

Join the CSK group on FB.

[brightball]

I always thought it wasn't recommended to stay in ketosis for more than 2 weeks at a time?

[wirrbel]

I cannot say that it isn't recommended, because recommendations are quite diverse. But I haven't seen that recommendation before.

Orthodox nutritionists would definitely advice against ketosis, potentially they may be fine with fasting-induced ketosis every once in a while (depends a bit on how they were trained).

People who embrace a low-carb ketosis-inducing diet (aka "Keto diet") or embrace multi-day fasting don't consider it harmful really. For fasting there are of course certain limits but not due to ketosis but for other effects of not eating (refeed effect, general weight-considerations, etc. but there have been overweight people successfully fasting for months under supervision).

[agumonkey]

isn't ketosis very subtle to maintain otherwise it can harmful effects ?

[stjohnswarts]

No, like other people have said that's ketoacidosis. Both involve some ketones, but one is healthy and natural(ketosis) the other is very bad and you should talk to your doctor about it (or he is most likely the one to find it) that is ketoacidosis.

[PaulHoule]

People confuse it with ketoacidosis, which is very dangerous. Ketosis is benign.

[cies]

Afaik there is no top athlete on keto when performing: they are all on high-carb.

Keto is the "burn your body fat" mode. Staying in keto by eating high fat low carb is a trick. Humans never had such easy access to fats as today. Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates.

[amanaplanacanal]

> Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates.

This can't possibly be true. Agriculture is only 12,000 years old or so, but people have been living in Europe for much longer than that. I'm in North America, and there are no fruits available locally for six months out of the year. Before agriculture people must have been living mostly from hunting.

[DrScump]

You know the dietary practices of "all" top athletes?

Athletes in sports favoring fast-twitch muscle presumably wouldn't do keto, but endurance athletes, sure.

The SF Giants' Hunter Pence is a vocal keto practitioner.