[mech1234]

The most interesting bit of misinformation that I've seen develop is the claim that N95 masks do not help when you are in public, despite the fact that they factually do help. The chain of events:

1. Concerns arise that respirator inventories will be depleted, leaving few or none available for medical personel. Media outlets spread this news.

2a. Thorough and factual news outlets spread the news that respirators have some effectiveness but are not a silver bullet. They may be used among other preventative measures. They talk about the differences between levels of effectiveness of dust masks and respirators.

2b. Sloppy outlets, and the ones more interested in helping the greater good (preventing hording), start lying, claiming that the dust masks do not work and respirators do not work. They often conflate the two. They go to the effort to shame hoarders and praise other people who practice washing and sanitizing hands, not touching your face, etc.

It's been fun and terrifying to watch. News outlets do not have an interest in giving a nuanced message. They are willing to lie if they think it helps. It's a good case study of when you should explicitly not trust a claim made by the media.

Meanwhile, I have a stack of 20 N95 respirators I bought for woodworking a year ago that I've been offering to friends and family. I've had no takers yet.

[Reedx]

Saying "they don't work" followed with "we need them" is especially blatant. It cancels itself out. After all, no one would need them if they didn't work.

Another recent example was this on CNN and others: "38% of Americans wouldn't buy Corona beer "under any circumstances" because of the coronavirus, according to a recent survey."

This spread like... well, a virus. Even after it was debunked[1], CNN didn't remove or correct it[2].

1. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/about-coro...

2. https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1233406525491814400 https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/28/business/corona-beer-marketin...

[waterhouse]

I was finally able to get access to the full questions asked in the poll. These make clear that the survey was a fishing expedition designed to elicit viral stats. The questions asked in the poll include “Is Corona related to the coronavirus?” and “In light of the coronavirus, do you plan to stop drinking Corona?” Those presumably didn't get interesting answers, so they omitted them from the report, and instead published on the question of whether people "would not buy Corona under any circumstances now" and made it sound like the first questions. Good lord, it really is like the "Yes, Prime Minister" clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA&t=28s

[xiphias2]

> Saying "they don't work" followed with "we need them" is especially blatant. It cancels itself out.

I have seen this lie/conflict of interest being told by Harvard medical board by the leaders of the disease fighting squad and I realized that I can't even know what other information I should believe from them.

[notacoward]

Is that really misinformation, or just people having different information (or understanding of information) than you have? I have talked to actual front-line doctors who have mentioned running out of medical-use-approved masks and have had to get emergency exemptions allowing them to use other N95s wherever they can find any. The shortage is already real, and likely to get worse since we're likely still in the early stages of this outbreak.

So yes, it's true that widespread use of masks is somewhat beneficial. It's also true that we don't have enough for absolutely everyone, and that health care workers being unable to procure masks would be detrimental. The question is not which is true, because both are. The question is what allocation best serves our public-health interest. People - even people much better informed and closer to the issue than either of us - can reasonably disagree without slinging the "misinformation" label. If that belongs anywhere, it's with people who present only one side of the story and then follow up by attributing motives they couldn't possibly know. ;)

[thaumasiotes]

> it's true that widespread use of masks is somewhat beneficial. It's also true that we don't have enough for absolutely everyone, and that health care workers being unable to procure masks would be detrimental. The question is not which is true, because both are.

But the misinformation at issue is the idea that masks don't help, not the idea that they do help.

[otterley]

The question isn't whether N95 masks are/are not effective against transmission of the COVID-19 virus as a boolean yes/no answer.

The question is who should be supplied with the masks in a time of extreme shortage in a way that is most effective for the public at large, in terms of maximum effectiveness and lifesaving. It's all about ranking - what's the priority ordering for distribution?

The CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last.

Popular greed combined with ineffective controls are upsetting this logical ordering, and increase the overall risk for the population as a whole.

[PeterisP]

If we're talking about the media claims that the masks are ineffective, then it's completely orthogonal to the issue of who should be supplied with the masks. If CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last, that still does not excuse lying to the public, as that erodes trust in these organizations and ensures that all other information (e.g. regarding quarantines) would be distrusted.

[exolymph]

> The CDC and other well-educated organizations believe they should go to hospitals and other health care providers first, infected people second, vulnerable populations third, and others last.

> Popular greed combined with ineffective controls are upsetting this logical ordering, and increase the overall risk for the population as a whole.

Look, it's not my fault that gov't didn't prepare for this situation — high demand for masks — and that I did.

[petre]

In France, president Macron signed an presidential order last week requisitioning surgical masks and their production for healthcare use. Why isn't this possible in the US? Japan's prime minister, Abe Shinzo, altered the law to be able to declare formal state of emergency. He came under fire for poorly handling the outbreak.

[zachguo]

Yup, it's not about the effectiveness of the masks, it's simply because the US doesn't have enough stockpile and capacity to produce them. All east Asian countries recommend citizens to wear masks.

[Aeolun]

A while ago I saw some research that came out of China. One department consistently used N95 when dealing with Corona patients daily, and one department used no protection when dealing with patients occasionally.

The department with masks had zero personnel infections, the department without masks had 20.

I don’t know, but until someone proves to me otherwise, the N95 and up rated masks are super effective.

[notacoward]

Which side of the debate were you trying to support? I don't think anyone disagrees that medical personnel should have masks. Some might say that's all the more reason that a finite supply should be allocated to them first.

[bsder]

Medical personnel also have training to not touch their face, wash their hands repeatedly, and use disposable gloves.

Standard people do none of these.

N95 masks are useful in two cases: 1) medical personnel with training and 2) people actually sick so they don't cough it onto others.

For normal people, N95 masks have significantly decreased effectiveness since they don't cover your eyes.

[nnq]

Masks ALWAY help, a little or more, in one way or other. Any masks. Period. If you have them or you can get them easily, use them!

They help because:

1. you have a significant chance of being already infected with a mild form and contagious even if you don't know it - wear a damn mask to protect the really vulnerable people around from your viruses!

2. any masks reduces even by a tiny amount the chance of infection - you eat more veggie fibers to reduce your chance of colon cancer by a single digit percent ...wear a goddam mask to reduce even if by very little the risk of catching (and then spreading) COVID-19!

3. by wearing a mask you'll be imitated by a few others and make it socially more acceptable for others to wear too - some of the people who end up wearing makes because of you are probably already infected and don't know it, so you'll have limited spread by promoting the "fashion"! (also, a few are probably immunodepressed or otherwise sensitive and might not even know it so simply copying a "fashion" could save their lives)

PLEASE, wear a mask, any masks, even wear it badly, but do! Do it for others and to slow the spread of disease worldwide enough to allow healthcare systems to have a chance of coping with it, and to give vulnerable or unlucky people developing the rare severe cases a decent chance of survival!

And wash your hands!

(Yeah, 50-70% of the human population will get this, eventually. But it's incredibly stupid if we get it all at fucking once! Unless you're shorting some stocks or pursuing a dubious political agenda, you don't want this to happen.)

EDIT+: ...but don't go the other extreme, buying them at exorbitant prices despite being healthy and not at high risk, or hoarding them.

[yellowstuff]

I read something saying that people with masks had been observed to take them off to eat, put them down on a dirty table, and then put them back on their face. So you should add the caveat that properly used masks always help, all else equal.

[blackflame7000]

> News outlets do not have an interest in giving a nuanced message. They are willing to lie if they think it helps.

Too many journalists today believe the ends justify the means.

[scarejunba]

I too, have a box N95 and some P100 I bought in preparation for California fire season way before this crisis. On the Internet, everyone is super concerned with insight porn style stuff. So "actually X won't" or "actually Y will". Well, they're welcome to that.

If the masks were useless healthcare workers wouldn't wear them because they do hinder working. So that leaves me, with my stack of masks from before the crisis. Yeah, I'm not going to throw them away.

EDIT: I'm rate-limited but I feel the same as user lvturner below.

Here's a fit test video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdqcKHSIrrM

The following things are true:

* Masks are fantastic

* If you have them, use them

* The distribution of masks should prioritize healthcare workers for public health reasons

* Healthcare workers will not take a half-opened box of N95s and P100s.

There is precisely one conclusion: If you have masks, use the masks. They are great.

[lvturner]

Around 90% of the population of Hong Kong is wearing a mask right now. Despite the proximity to China, it's use as a transit hub and it's densely packed population - there are only 115 cases there.

While it's far from conclusive, I'd suggest this as valid evidence that the use of masks is helpful in reducing the spread of the virus.

[maccard]

> If the masks were useless healthcare workers wouldn't wear them

That's not how that works. The masks are less effective when used outside of a clinical setting, must be changed regularly (pretty much every time you take it off), and may prevent the transfer of disease from an infected healthcare worker to an otherwise vulnerable person.

Just because they're not effective for one situation doesn't mean all the advice is moot

[m3kw9]

There is disinformation about n95s. N95 is generally not useful for the public because they need to be fit tested to be effective. Front line workers needs them and use them properly and they are short of them because of the public. The public should use level 1-3 masks so they don’t spread viruses

[jogundas]

The most extensive writeup with references that I have seen so far is at https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/ . Not sure if this is an original summary, or ripped off from some other site though.

[newtoday]

As others have corrected you on point 1 below, I know from a first hand account of 1 medical supply company in the US Midwest that is out of stock of surgical masks.

[PeterCorless]

The virus itself is too small to be stopped by an N95 mask.

An N95 mask stops 95% of 0.3 micron particles. But the virus itself is far smaller. Healthcare workers exposed to SARS-CoV got the disease even wearing N95s.

https://www.apsf.org/news-updates/perioperative-consideratio...

[ajross]

ARRGH, NO, STOP, THIS IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. Sorry for the caps, but this stuff is important, and you are spreading exactly the kind of misinformation that the linked article complains about.

The study you link absolutely does not say that masks do not work. Here's what it ACTUALLY SAYS:

> N95 masks fulfill the filtering efficiency criteria of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) and are approved for protection against droplet and airborne transmission of 95% of particles greater than 0.3 microns in size. N95 masks, which must be fit tested, are believed to offer protection against the contact and droplet spread of the coronavirus. At a minimum, N95 masks should be used for all known or suspected cases of 2019-nCoV, as well as for any asymptomatic “open airway’’ cases, e.g.: interventional pulmonology procedures

Basically: masks work. They don't work perfectly. You should use them if you are at risk.

Your nonsense about the virus itself being small is irrelevant. Respiratory transfer doesn't happen by virus molecules flying through the air, it happens on water droplets. The masks stop droplets. That's what they're for.

(They also prevent you from touching your nose and mouth, which is another preventative mechanism.)

[PeterisP]

Masks stop droplets, and reduce the spread by coughs and sneezes.

If everyone on your bus who's coughing is wearing a mask - even a simple 'surgical' mask not an N95 one - that means less chances of getting infected from them.

[wskinner]

The article you shared directly contradicts your claim.

> N95 masks fulfill the filtering efficiency criteria of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) and are approved for protection against droplet and airborne transmission of 95% of particles greater than 0.3 microns in size. N95 masks, which must be fit tested, are believed to offer protection against the contact and droplet spread of the coronavirus. At a minimum, N95 masks should be used for all known or suspected cases of 2019-nCoV, as well as for any asymptomatic “open airway’’ cases...

[bad_user]

> "Meanwhile, I have a stack of 20 N95 respirators I bought for woodworking a year ago that I've been offering to friends and family. I've had no takers yet."

In absence of a sterilization method, they are going to last for only 20 days at most — since you can only use them once, for 8 hours max. I'd sell them for a premium actually to people thinking those 20 masks will save them.

Prevention methods need to be economically sustainable and practical. N95 masks are not only expensive and with an unreliable supply, but they are also pretty uncomfortable and most people don't wear them or dispose of them correctly.

[allovernow]

The idea is to stay at home and only wear a mask when you have to go outside, say, for groceries.

[jbob2000]

Here's why masks are useless: You are going to take your mask off with your dirty hands. You're going to wear your mask dutifully while outside, then you're going to walk inside your house and the first thing you will do is take your mask off - with your dirty hands.

There are so many gotchas with wearing masks that it's best to just leave them for the people who are closest to the crisis. They're the ones with the greatest need and they have the training to make them effective.

And besides... the coronavirus is not airborne, you need to be hit with a droplet from an infected person's cough or sneeze. There's such a small chance of that happening while you're out-and-about that it's not worth it to wear these things. The real solution is to wash your hands because that's the main vector of infection.

[mech1234]

You are claiming that the masks are useless. They are not. They have some effectiveness, and that effectiveness is limited. This is well-understood. Aerosol-based transmission is well-understood. Claiming that there are "gotchas" does not change the fact that wearing a mask reduces your risk.

You are doing the very thing that I pointed out as incorrect: removing nuance.

A more honest expression of your position would be "the limited effectiveness of the masks and their limited supply means that it is reasonable for the masks to be reserved for those who need them most." The honest debate around this position regards how much supply there is, how much individual liberty should dictate demand, and other such factors. The latter half of your post comes around to this, even though the first half is incorrect.

[whatshisface]

>You are going to take your mask off with your dirty hands. You're going to wear your mask dutifully while outside, then you're going to walk inside your house and the first thing you will do is take your mask off - with your dirty hands.

Now that you've warned me not to do that, won't masks work? I can access the same training materials as hospital workers.

Also, what if I get a little cough? If I'm walking by your house, I'm sure you would like me to be wearing a mask.

[Seenso]

> Here's why masks are useless: You are going to take your mask off with your dirty hands. You're going to wear your mask dutifully while outside, then you're going to walk inside your house and the first thing you will do is take your mask off - with your dirty hands.

The problem isn't so much touching the respirator with dirty hands, its getting your hands dirty by touching a contaminated respirator.

Here's how to remove a mask without touching the (possibly contaminated) front:

N95 3M mask: How to Wear & Remove (by Singapore General Hospital):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoxpvDVo_NI

[knzhou]

Come on, this is a trivially refutable opinion. If masks don't work, then why do healthcare workers need them?

[playpause]

It is possible to encourage positive collective behaviour without sacrificing making sense.