So far the comments have been about people's prior experiences with the topic (which is great), or prior opinions about the topic (which is ok). But the more interesting story is being overlooked: this is heavy-duty new research that overturns previous conclusions, including the prior expectations of at least one of the lead authors. It would be good to discuss the specifics of the article and the new study.
Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4]
In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to treat alcoholism, with promising results:
"Osmond treated more than 700 chronically alcoholic patients with LSD and ended up with around a 50 percent overall success rate. One of Osmond's most compelling studies took place in the late 1950s with a cohort of subjects from the group Alcoholics Anonymous. This cohort was comprised of individuals that had failed the famous 12-step program, and again Osmond hit his 50 percent success rate, this time with a 12-month follow-up period."[5]
In 2012 a meta-analysis of studies with a total of 536 participants found "evidence for a beneficial effect of LSD on alcohol misuse".[6]
I just finished Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind and found this bit of history to be one of the most interesting pieces of an overall super interesting book. So frustrating that a moral panic essentially wound up locking away this research for 50 years.
Ibduilast, which is a drug that has been on the market in Japan and safely used for 30 years, has also been used to treat alcohol and opioid addiction.[1][2]
A year ago, for two weeks, I binged on five grams of some drug. It seems it saturated the NMDA receptors (my own uninformed explanation) so for six months alcohol was same as water to me. Cannabis and benzos were also useless.
Now alcohol does make its effect again, but I just drink some beer occasionaly, no more hard liquors. I haven't had any mj in a year, the best part. Oh, and the drug in question... I tried it again a month ago and found it unpleasant, and keeps building that crappy cross-tolerance.
I won't name the drug because I wouldn't like to encourage anyone to try this kind of "treatment", I'm pretty sure my reaction is not typical at all. But it would be nice if there was research about this.
Jungian psychology (shadow work) and the occult have been absolutely critical for me to work through the internal contradictions that led me to seek out drugs in the first place.
The AA way was described in The Power of Habit as one of the examples of successful habit change. Basically: keep the habit's cue(e.g. feeling depressesed) and the reward(social interaction) but replace the bad habit(drinking) with a better one(meeting with the sponsor).
My alcoholism (if it can be called that - it is a spectrum) is driven in part by the social interaction of fellow drinkers. The predictability of seeing each other at the bar, of hanging out and not worrying about the day.
I've talked to one or two of them about doing tea on Tuesdays, or some other thing that could get us from drinking 3-7 stouts a night.
recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling.
i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc).
i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most.
ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety.
if you're not sure if it's right for you and struggling with addiction, i highly recommend having an open mind, and trying 90 meetings and 90 days. see how you feel after. it's the daily practice that is transformative.
there is something powerful about being focused on a purpose with a group of similarly motivated people.
the people in the rooms of AA understand the challenge you're facing in a way that friends and family often don't.
you quickly realize that the 'higher power' thing is a pretty easy to move beyond, regardless of your religious orientation. a 'higher power' can even be a conceptual device - e.g. the wisdom of the people in your meeting who have achieved a life of sobriety.
it's also not to say that AA in itself is a savior. it's a healthy component to integrate as part of a balanced recovery of body, mind, and spirit.
eating well, exercising often, and finding ways to be helpful are other important pillars to incorporate along your journey.
I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong.
I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. Absolutely ridiculous.
When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.
I always fancied the stoic concept of “higher power” basically a combination of the Universe and “reason”. This is what I turn to in any theological discussions.
It’s great you’re willing to overcome the technicalities for a greater good. Too many people are restrained by their own ego. Keep up on your righteous path.
After 15yrs of a-abuse, 4 bottles of alcover (sodium oxibate? i believe available - prescription only - only in one country) cured me. I bought 2 cases of xtra-strong beer 'just in case', have had 2 cans on my desk for months now. 0 interest in drinking.
AA's 12 Steps use the word God four times. They also refer to "Him" three times, to a higher "Power," a "spiritual awakening," and prayer.
Nearly every step has a reference to spirituality of some kind and most of them are laced with Christian undertones.
More generally the idea behind the 12 steps is to place yourself in the hands of this higher power and allow it to guide you. Basically it requires a belief in prayer.
AA has worked for many many people--which is wonderful and it is demonstrably a great tool for them! But an atheist, humanist, or more generally someone who doesn't believe in spirituality is going to have to go through significant mental gymnastics to deal with the 12 Steps.
It seems to me that if someone doesn't believe in God or a higher power of any kind, there are probably better first line treatments for alcohol addiction. It isn't necessary for an atheist to change their spiritual or religious beliefs in order to recover. Therapy, medication and secular support groups all exist.
I drove someone close to me to a 12 step program, and stayed with them for a session. It was a remarkably positive group of people helping each other through problems.
> Keith Humphreys, Ph.D., professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences, and his fellow investigators determined that AA was nearly always found to be more effective than psychotherapy in achieving abstinence.
This does not appear to include other programs like pharmacological extinction or the Sinclair method.
> We included randomized controlled trials (RCTs), quasi‐RCTs and non‐randomized studies that compared AA or TSF (AA/TSF) with other interventions, such as motivational enhancement therapy (MET) or cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), TSF treatment variants, or no treatment.
Ok, I've edited the title to mention psychotherapy, since that's the alternative that the submitted article (at least) focuses on. Which is still an interesting finding.
Outsider's uninformed opinion: if you attend AA then regardless of any official narrative or agenda this means you're spending important time with people who (a) used to drink, and (b) don't drink any more. Their example plus hearing what they've got to say seems like an excellent approach.
I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind.
Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF that have been great and usually hosted by churches.
> the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly
This is highly dependent on where you are. I experienced verbal abuse and was made to feel unwelcome at meetings when people found out I'm an atheist. People have told me, verbatim, "You don't belong here if you're denying God".
Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that little cult. I'm doing fine without it.
My understanding is that they don't even need you to acknowledge a God, just that "there is cosmically something bigger than you and you have no power to govern it"
Same here, been to Al-Anon meetings in London UK, all hosted in church basements and with zero religious nonsense being spouted... just the Serenity Prayer and tbh that one is just plain good advice so I did not mind :)
I have nothing but praise for the 12-step system as I experienced it
If you're one of those for whom AA didn't work I would encourage you to look at the The Sinclair Method. It has changed many lives for the better (including mine).
This is how I quit and it's a profoundly disappointing and discouraging thing that this is not more broadly known. I should have quit 15-20 years before I actually did and had I known about The Sinclair Method the first time I was subjected to AA and did that instead, I'm convinced I would have been able to quit then. However, I wasn't aware of this and continued drinking for another 17 years.
It's the community. Half the members of AA can't even name all the steps, but in AA they find kinship with other people with similar experiences and similar struggles.
Humans are hyper-social. We live better, grow better, heal better, and confront difficulties better when we have others. This is true for introverts too. Introverts are not anti-social, they just have a more muted less intense social style.
I’m unsure about this meta analysis because it’s presumably based on AA publications.
The thing is That numerous prior AA publications have treated “falling off the wagon” or missing one of the steps to mean that you weren’t doing AA properly, and so they dont report it as a failure.
Essentially they end up getting close to just filtering out all the treatment failures, which inflates their success rate.
So I got sober in AA just as pagers were becoming a thing. I was lucky and found a young people’s group in Pasadena.
If you have problems with Meetings, that’s cool. Find another one. Nothing is going to be handed to u cause you want to get sober. It took a little while before I found the right meetings. Or you can find a sponsor, no where in the big book does it say that u have to go to meetings.
But if anybody is telling what you can and can’t do then, start talking to Someone else... that’s just nonsense.
I’m always suspect of people with a grudge against AA. I’m here to help and if it’s not for you that’s cool to. I’m not Christian but if works for some and doesn’t hurt other then who am I to judge.
I am 7 years sober via the AA path after trying just about everything else.
I really, really didn't want to go into an AA room the first time and even when I mustered the courage to try it I almost drove out of the parking lot :).
The decision to walk into the room changed my life.
There are many paths to recovery but if you are at a point or have questions you would like to ask privately please reach out to me anonymously.
There's a lesser known study in which someone who is optimistic about their behavior performs worse. The people who think they have the most willpower are likely to give in. The more people lose will, the more they view that failure as an anomaly, work harder at it, and spiral worse.
When smokers were asked to smoke the same number of cigarettes every day, and explicitly told not to smoke less, they gradually smoke less.
The people who are pessimistic about their odds often do well. It's likely that AA's approach of making people to feel powerless is what ironically gives them more willpower.
Sources: Howard Rachlin, The Science of Self-Control; Kelly McGonigal, Maximum Willpower.
Interesting. I was never a fan of AA and I was very critical in the lack of science and rigor in addiction treatment, and actually for mental health in general. I always felt there were better treatments, but CBT-based group therapy / 12-step alternatives are pretty rare. All you really need to start a chapter of AA is to not have one nearby and a place to host it. It's comforting that AA at least doesn't make things worse, on average, even if its not amazing. I'm still not comfortable with the fact that the government will require people to attend what is essentially a religious service as criminal punishment, and there are certain aspects of AA that they should probably at least de-emphasize.
Those interested in A.A.'s official position on atheism and agnosticism should check out the pamphlet[0] Many Paths to Spirituality published recently by AA World Services, the legal entity responsible to North American A.A.. The link is to a product page - click on the picture of the pamphlet to download a pdf. There are sober atheists in AA. To anyone who gets a bad reaction to professed atheism in an AA meeting, remind the offenders of AA's Tradiion 3: "THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR AA MEMBERSHIP IS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING". If they persist, find or start another meeting.
I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective.
But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power.
I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful.
Anecdotally, I've known someone who used to be stressed out and controlling. Last time I saw him he was not so stressed. He said his life changed once he surrendered and accepted his destiny. He didn't go religious or anything, just 'accepted' his fate.
It reminds me of the old saying: The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man adapts the world to himself, therefore all progress is due to the unreasonable man.
I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of the universe.
The point is surrendering to something "bigger" than yourself. Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives.
Does anyone else feel like this study is a bit tautological in that it's measuring attributes that are valued by the AA method? Many other methods don't preach abstinence so of course they're going to get less total abstinence duration. But I wonder if there are better ways to measure overall effectiveness and well-being. Some people learn to manage their drink and would fare poorly on that metric.
The studies in this space are notoriously bad(AA has a lot of true believers, which can lead to publication bias, and psychotherapy research in general is pretty poor). And one the best and largest studies(MATCH) on the topic show that pretty much every non-pharmacological treatment is the same.
[+] [-] dang|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmoriarty|6 years ago|reply
Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4]
In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to treat alcoholism, with promising results:
"Osmond treated more than 700 chronically alcoholic patients with LSD and ended up with around a 50 percent overall success rate. One of Osmond's most compelling studies took place in the late 1950s with a cohort of subjects from the group Alcoholics Anonymous. This cohort was comprised of individuals that had failed the famous 12-step program, and again Osmond hit his 50 percent success rate, this time with a 12-month follow-up period."[5]
In 2012 a meta-analysis of studies with a total of 536 participants found "evidence for a beneficial effect of LSD on alcohol misuse".[6]
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_W.
[2] - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alc...
[3] - http://barefootsworld.org/wilsonletter.html
[4] - https://aaagnostica.org/2015/05/10/bill-wilsons-experience-w...
[5] - [6] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22406913
[+] [-] macNchz|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] narrator|6 years ago|reply
[1]https://www.nature.com/articles/npp201710?draft\\u003dcollec... [2]https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/adb.12261
[+] [-] cies|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmoriarty|6 years ago|reply
[5] - https://newatlas.com/psychedelic-medicine-lsd-psilocybin-alc...
[+] [-] throwawayaway23|6 years ago|reply
Now alcohol does make its effect again, but I just drink some beer occasionaly, no more hard liquors. I haven't had any mj in a year, the best part. Oh, and the drug in question... I tried it again a month ago and found it unpleasant, and keeps building that crappy cross-tolerance.
I won't name the drug because I wouldn't like to encourage anyone to try this kind of "treatment", I'm pretty sure my reaction is not typical at all. But it would be nice if there was research about this.
[+] [-] nabnob|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anovikov|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] didymospl|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unethical_ban|6 years ago|reply
I've talked to one or two of them about doing tea on Tuesdays, or some other thing that could get us from drinking 3-7 stouts a night.
That book may be worth a read.
[+] [-] ulshv|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elixanchor|6 years ago|reply
i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc).
i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most.
ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety.
if you're not sure if it's right for you and struggling with addiction, i highly recommend having an open mind, and trying 90 meetings and 90 days. see how you feel after. it's the daily practice that is transformative.
there is something powerful about being focused on a purpose with a group of similarly motivated people.
the people in the rooms of AA understand the challenge you're facing in a way that friends and family often don't.
you quickly realize that the 'higher power' thing is a pretty easy to move beyond, regardless of your religious orientation. a 'higher power' can even be a conceptual device - e.g. the wisdom of the people in your meeting who have achieved a life of sobriety.
it's also not to say that AA in itself is a savior. it's a healthy component to integrate as part of a balanced recovery of body, mind, and spirit.
eating well, exercising often, and finding ways to be helpful are other important pillars to incorporate along your journey.
good luck, be well.
[+] [-] athrowaway69|6 years ago|reply
I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. Absolutely ridiculous.
When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.
[+] [-] mdrachuk|6 years ago|reply
It’s great you’re willing to overcome the technicalities for a greater good. Too many people are restrained by their own ego. Keep up on your righteous path.
[+] [-] C19is20|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] apatters|6 years ago|reply
Nearly every step has a reference to spirituality of some kind and most of them are laced with Christian undertones.
More generally the idea behind the 12 steps is to place yourself in the hands of this higher power and allow it to guide you. Basically it requires a belief in prayer.
AA has worked for many many people--which is wonderful and it is demonstrably a great tool for them! But an atheist, humanist, or more generally someone who doesn't believe in spirituality is going to have to go through significant mental gymnastics to deal with the 12 Steps.
It seems to me that if someone doesn't believe in God or a higher power of any kind, there are probably better first line treatments for alcohol addiction. It isn't necessary for an atheist to change their spiritual or religious beliefs in order to recover. Therapy, medication and secular support groups all exist.
[+] [-] mathattack|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RickJWagner|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] suifbwish|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] suifbwish|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] foxyv|6 years ago|reply
This does not appear to include other programs like pharmacological extinction or the Sinclair method.
> We included randomized controlled trials (RCTs), quasi‐RCTs and non‐randomized studies that compared AA or TSF (AA/TSF) with other interventions, such as motivational enhancement therapy (MET) or cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), TSF treatment variants, or no treatment.
[+] [-] dang|6 years ago|reply
Edit: we've since changed the URL and therefore also the title (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22550789)
[+] [-] grabbalacious|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] frumiousirc|6 years ago|reply
The "brand name" of the group is not so relevant.
[+] [-] sbilstein|6 years ago|reply
Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF that have been great and usually hosted by churches.
[+] [-] athrowaway69|6 years ago|reply
This is highly dependent on where you are. I experienced verbal abuse and was made to feel unwelcome at meetings when people found out I'm an atheist. People have told me, verbatim, "You don't belong here if you're denying God".
Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that little cult. I'm doing fine without it.
[+] [-] kilroy123|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kuraj|6 years ago|reply
Thank you for telling me about Al-Anon - I will look into it myself.
[+] [-] Waterluvian|6 years ago|reply
Is that about what you experienced?
[+] [-] GiuseppaAcciaio|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] towaway|6 years ago|reply
https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ https://cthreefoundation.org/
[+] [-] Quequau|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] openfuture|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidandgoliath|6 years ago|reply
I've since returned to drinking periodically, but, it's nice knowing I can cease at any given moment using this methodology if I choose.
[+] [-] api|6 years ago|reply
Humans are hyper-social. We live better, grow better, heal better, and confront difficulties better when we have others. This is true for introverts too. Introverts are not anti-social, they just have a more muted less intense social style.
[+] [-] olliej|6 years ago|reply
The thing is That numerous prior AA publications have treated “falling off the wagon” or missing one of the steps to mean that you weren’t doing AA properly, and so they dont report it as a failure.
Essentially they end up getting close to just filtering out all the treatment failures, which inflates their success rate.
[+] [-] chad_strategic|6 years ago|reply
If you have problems with Meetings, that’s cool. Find another one. Nothing is going to be handed to u cause you want to get sober. It took a little while before I found the right meetings. Or you can find a sponsor, no where in the big book does it say that u have to go to meetings.
But if anybody is telling what you can and can’t do then, start talking to Someone else... that’s just nonsense.
I’m always suspect of people with a grudge against AA. I’m here to help and if it’s not for you that’s cool to. I’m not Christian but if works for some and doesn’t hurt other then who am I to judge.
[+] [-] recoveredtoday|6 years ago|reply
I really, really didn't want to go into an AA room the first time and even when I mustered the courage to try it I almost drove out of the parking lot :).
The decision to walk into the room changed my life.
There are many paths to recovery but if you are at a point or have questions you would like to ask privately please reach out to me anonymously.
I set up an email [email protected] to go with this anon account.
[+] [-] blast|6 years ago|reply
https://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/my-name-is-roger-a...
[+] [-] muzani|6 years ago|reply
When smokers were asked to smoke the same number of cigarettes every day, and explicitly told not to smoke less, they gradually smoke less.
The people who are pessimistic about their odds often do well. It's likely that AA's approach of making people to feel powerless is what ironically gives them more willpower.
Sources: Howard Rachlin, The Science of Self-Control; Kelly McGonigal, Maximum Willpower.
[+] [-] neonate|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] c3534l|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MaysonL|6 years ago|reply
[0]https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/aa-literature/p-84-many-path...
[+] [-] NicolasGorden|6 years ago|reply
But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power.
I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful.
Anecdotally, I've known someone who used to be stressed out and controlling. Last time I saw him he was not so stressed. He said his life changed once he surrendered and accepted his destiny. He didn't go religious or anything, just 'accepted' his fate.
It reminds me of the old saying: The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man adapts the world to himself, therefore all progress is due to the unreasonable man.
[+] [-] saberience|6 years ago|reply
The point is surrendering to something "bigger" than yourself. Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives.
[+] [-] manifestsilence|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snurfer|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JamesBarney|6 years ago|reply
For a different take on the literature look at https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/10/26/alcoholics-anonymous-m...