In New York, specifically, it's not much of a mystery - the incredibly close stop spacing and inefficient boarding procedures make it so the bus is barely faster than walking.
Most buses stop almost every block, they board through a single door, and they use the two slowest payment methods available in almost any system (cash and magnetic strip cards).
However, I don't expect this to change anytime soon, because many existing riders are very invested in keeping buses the way they are. To be clear, their concerns are valid - for a variety of reasons, it may be difficult for many people to walk an additional block to their local bus stop, vs. having a stop in front of their building. Many of the current riders are also long-time residents who are more likely to go to community board meetings, contact their city council members, and protest changes in other ways. If you're a policymaker, it's hard to weight the costs that would be imposed on this vocal set of people vs. the benefits that would accrue to a much less vocal group of people who would benefit from a faster and more consistent bus.
I think it can be done if you pair changes like removing stops with other improvements that bus riders will appreciate. For example, in my neighborhood the city recently introduced a dedicated bus lane down a major road, and removed a couple stops at the same time to streamline the bus route. I've been following the results somewhat closely, and I haven't heard any complaints about missing stops, only complaints from car drivers.
It's hard to complain about your stop moving a block at the committee meeting if they have hard data that everyone's commute is an average of 10 minutes faster.
For some reason car drivers always think that bus service needs to be reduced (fewer stops) in order to provide "better" bus service.
The studies show that decreasing stops has minimal effect on transit times. Two stops with ten people each only takes a bit longer to board than one stop with twenty people. You save a couple of minutes across the entire length of a bus route.
And each stop removal increases rider commute times - now I have to walk 5 minutes longer to get a bus that's 2 minutes faster. Overall commute: 3 minutes longer. Plus each stop removal decreases the number of people served - if the old stop was a ten minute walk and the new one is a fifteen minute walk, you'll just stop taking transit altogether.
So in general, stop removal is not at all a panacea and is often a 100% negative to transit riders.
What actually works: getting rid of ride-hailing and other things that tend to clog the streets with empty, dead-heading vehicles; dedicated bus lanes and general banning of single-passenger automobiles; congestion charges; making sure transit is frequent and inexpensive so that it works well for people; etc.
That's why most efficient public transports use two tier system. There is long and short distance tiers. Long distance can be metro or express busses (busses that skip most stops). This gets you relatively close to the destination where you have option to take a bus that has very short distances between stops.
I work in NYC and the Select bus has all door boarding. I'm sure you already know that. What surprised me was finding the 14A, which is one of the routes I take weekly, just switched over to Select service.
What's more, NYC is rolling out contactless payment for subways. Some of the select buses _appear_ to be equipped for this service as well. Currently, to use the Select service you must buy a ticket curbside at the stop.
Fun fact for folks in Seattle, San Diego, Tampa, Washington, D.C., Spokane, etc: Professor Kari Watkins, mentioned in the article, is the co-creator of OneBusAway.
OneBusAway, or OBA, in case you aren't familiar with it, is an open source real time transit information system, and includes a full backend, plus iOS and Android client apps. OBA had belonged to the University of Washington until recently, when it was spun out into a new 501(c)(3) non-profit, called the Open Transit Software Foundation: https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org
(n.b. I'm the maintainer of OneBusAway for iOS, and a member of the OTSF board.)
I think transit apps is a really interesting problem. Transit App was a favorite until a redesign they did a few years ago. And they have never tackled the user interaction challenge of making transfers make any sense.
This space has very tangible information/ux problems.
Just too inconvenient. I was tired of driving my teenager 15 minutes to her job, so I looked up the bus route. From our house it is basically straight down a single major road to her job. But to get there on the bus meant transferring two times and would take her an hour and a half. Insane.
I live in one of the cities in the article about a mile away from the city center and this is 100% the problem. It's 3-4 times as slow as driving and comparable to a brisk walk. And that's assuming that a bus isn't behind or I just miss one and the next one isn't for 30 minutes. For example, there's a popular restaurant/bar area 2.5 miles away from my house. Driving is 10 minutes, bus is 50 with a transfer, and walking is 50.
Nearly every comment on the NYT site makes the same point: buses are unreliable, and filled with homeless, mentally unstable or drugged people who make them a terrifying experience. What is the response of cities? Kneecap the alternatives like Uber/Lyft, or spend taxpayers' money not on fixing those two problems but on ridiculous ideas like paying people to take the bus. Almost as if the people are here to serve the bus and not the other way around.
In our area it has been a cycle for the last 10 years. Lower funding means route contraction. Route contraction means lower ridership leading to lower funding. Lower funding leads to route contraction. Wash. Rinse Repeat.
It is a metro area where most of the jobs are spread out among distinct suburb areas. The remaining routes do not travel among the suburbs with regularity; the focus is on suburbs to downtown and within the city proper.
We did the opposite in Seattle and have seen impressive results. In 2014, we voted--in the city, after a countywide measure failed--to tax ourselves to buy a whole lot more service hours from the county transit agency. Originally this was because slumping sales tax income was going to force the county to cut service but, instead, sales tax income came roaring back and the city was able to buy so much extra service from the county that we hit the limit for number of buses, places to put them, and drivers to drive them.
Routes that had been 15-minute some of the day and dropping to 30-minute or an hour on weekends (or did not run at all) were upgraded. Major trunk routes, not just ones to downtown but crosstown routes and routes through underserved areas, got upgraded to sub-10-minute frequency during peak commute and many now run all day at no less often than every 15 minutes. Add in two new light rail stations opening in the densest part of the city and ridership has been up.
But, of course, no good thing goes untouched. Last year, statewide voters approved an initiative that guts Seattle's ability to tax ourselves for transit ("$30" car tabs, which are nothing of the sort since even that initiative doesn't reduce vehicle registration costs to $30). If the initiative is upheld--still in doubt because the sponsor of the initiative is not known for writing initiatives that are legally sound, because if they stayed in effect he wouldn't get paid to keep running them--it's going to not only blow a hole in our light rail construction but also cut local bus service by 20-30%.
In any rate, we've proven that if you invest in good service that runs a lot of the time, people will use it.
This sounds like NICE bus in Nassau County, Long Island, NY. Nassau county bus system was subcontracted to MTA about 8 years ago. NICE is a for-profit company [1] and they are constantly tweaking the schedules. Bus frequency here was 30 minutes during peak and 60 minutes off-pead, 5 days a week with reduced Saturday and more reduced Sunday schedules.
Now, in addition to eliminating routes which predated their contract, they have dead times in the middle of the day, gaps after "peak" times (which in my case put a 2 hour hole between 1800h and 2000h on my line). And they've canceled service on Sunday and on some lines both Saturday and Sunday.
In the latter case I'm sure NICE would say the LIRR is an alternative, but on the weekend that runs every 2 hours and costs $9 one way versus $2.75
And if you're fortunate enough to make some use of the system, there is no expectation it will still work for you later, because of the contraction cycle the parent described--Every 6-12 months schedules change.
I can't help thinking of companies like Walmart who move into areas, drive out small businesses, and then decide to pull out of town. Of course, it's a free market and they can do that, but in the case of public transit in the hands of private for profit companies it's a terrible burden on anyone who doesn't have a car.
And Nassau County has some of the highest taxes in the nation. Go figure.
Busses are very very slow. Unless you're in a very dense urban area, the extra time to take the bus is unpalatable. The segment of the population that doesn't have a car but can afford Uber Pool will take it because it's about 3x faster and more reliable.
it's more nuanced than that. shared/pool rides being faster is a function of distance (which is correlated to delays).
from my experience (in LA), they're often no faster than buses for short trips (up to ~4 miles). between 4-6, it's typically breakeven. for trips over ~6 miles, shared/pool rides are usually faster (and gets more so with longer distances).
but note that the bulk of bus trips are under 10 miles, so it takes some thought to get the best bang for buck.
I stopped riding the bus mainly due to social reasons: there was always somebody on every trip watching TV on their phone without headphones.
And people stopped waiting for others to disembark before boarding. That's the weirdest thing: the bus stops, the doors open, and the people waiting to board just start piling in before the people coming off have left. Maybe that's only in SF.
And then there's this:
> In Gavin Newsom’s book Citizenville he talked about how, after becoming SF mayor, he discovered that fare collection cost as much as the revenue generated from fares. He started the process of making the bus free but was told by so many advisors that the busses would become “dumpsters on wheels,” from a combination of homeless people using them for shelter and people not respecting services that are free, that the plan was scrapped.
I stopped taking the bus regularly, then permanently during this time period.
At first it was because my personal schedule, and my bus schedule changed just enough to make it annoying to make it to work on time, and almost impossible to avoid routes that spent most of their time in an extremely high crime area. So most of the time I drove to the train.
Then I got a new job working from home, and I stopped taking the bus and the train. I must say that I miss the bus quite a bit. It was the most books I've ever read recreationally. I even taught myself python on the bus, which lead to the new job.
I also used to take the bus when I thought I would be drinking, and uber/lyft have completely replaced that.
Chicago buses have an estimated arrival at most stops along the major routes. Every single but stop also has a unique number on the sign that you can text to a service and get estimates back by text. It makes using buses so much easier and less of a hassle because there's less guessing involved. I had my usual stop numbers memorized so I could text ahead of time and see when to leave, or maybe decide to just walk the route instead of waiting if it was going to be a while. They have that info on a website but texting was faster.
> How about a button at each stop, with a live estimate when the bus will arrive?
There are already many, many apps for that.
Google Maps will give you some decent good route mapping and alternatives, though less realtime than apps that use data back ends like NextBus.
You can do better routing than Google if you're familiar with a route/combination and its intricacies, but if you're in a part of town you don't know as much, Google Maps' transit routing is a godsend.
The bus system in Taiwan is amazing. You see all ages represented from school kids to the elderly. They don't smell and have dedicated lanes in places. There are so many of them that you rarely have to wait more than 10 minutes at any stop. It's a great alternative to the subway for shorter rides.
It seems like cities like NY and San Francisco have the density to support similar systems.
Busses are great in NYC. I take them regularly. They are nice and clean and fairly quick. They're not always as fast as Uber but they're much cheaper, so you have a tradeoff. And, sometimes they are faster than Uber, since they have their own lane in some places!
Interesting - I thought that mapping apps on smartphones would change the trend of decline at least a little. One of the challenges of buses is knowing which routes are which, which is often far more difficult to figure out than subway if you are not a regular user. But mapping apps say, "catch the XYZ bus at this stop and get off here" and real-time bus prediction apps that tell you when the bus coming solve those problems. I guess that hypothesis was wrong (though it has been true for me personally that I take the bus a lot more often).
As a bus rider in San Francisco for the last 30 years, there a a few things that made the experience way worse.
The design of munis modern fleet has reduced the seat and isle space. Standing is hard because your always in the way, and the redesign to accommodate more handicap seating has really reduced regular seating that could be perpendicular to the length of the bus.
Reliability is the other issue. Main lines are very reliable, but meandering cross town routes make a two bus commute undesirable.
A very thorough analysis. I'd assume that the newer generation, the ecologically-conscious one, will be taking public transportation more, for sure. And even though many of these people also fall into the category of those 'working from home', they're also the more outgoing ones. So there's not really a reason to say buses will keep suffering, it's likely to be a cyclical thing.
The bus is pretty usable in LA. Most major roads have a bus line going up and down them every 10 minutes. High capacity routes are given articulating busses.
Despite the proportions of ridership being low, functionally it is pretty high, and the entire transit network does hit capacity during rush hours.
It's kind of incredible the article doesn't mention it, but the typical city bus makes sounds at a decibel level that is harmful to the human body (anything above 85 dB is harmful).
There's a scene in Mad Men that I always like to bring up when it comes to things like this, where the Drapers are having a picnic in a bucolic park, and then they just get up and walk away, leaving their trash behind. It looks crazy and stupid to us now, because we all collectively woke up and realized that damaging the world around us makes life worse.
People are using buses less partly for the same reason that they stopped littering, and normal cars have gotten steadily quieter over the years: they're waking up to how painfully awful city buses are.
The day will come when someone will make a show about our times, and it will feature a city bus pulling up and drowning out a conversation, and all the characters in the scene, who ignore it or just start shouting over it without thinking, will look as ridiculous to future viewers, as the Drapers did to us in that scene.
Bus companies are investing in EVs since it is likely fossil fuels will be banned in city centers pretty soon.
Perhaps the culture really is that diffrent in the U.S., that I never expected someone to prefer personal vehicles to public transit for environmental reasons.
[+] [-] alexhutcheson|6 years ago|reply
Most buses stop almost every block, they board through a single door, and they use the two slowest payment methods available in almost any system (cash and magnetic strip cards).
However, I don't expect this to change anytime soon, because many existing riders are very invested in keeping buses the way they are. To be clear, their concerns are valid - for a variety of reasons, it may be difficult for many people to walk an additional block to their local bus stop, vs. having a stop in front of their building. Many of the current riders are also long-time residents who are more likely to go to community board meetings, contact their city council members, and protest changes in other ways. If you're a policymaker, it's hard to weight the costs that would be imposed on this vocal set of people vs. the benefits that would accrue to a much less vocal group of people who would benefit from a faster and more consistent bus.
[+] [-] burkaman|6 years ago|reply
It's hard to complain about your stop moving a block at the committee meeting if they have hard data that everyone's commute is an average of 10 minutes faster.
[+] [-] jellicle|6 years ago|reply
The studies show that decreasing stops has minimal effect on transit times. Two stops with ten people each only takes a bit longer to board than one stop with twenty people. You save a couple of minutes across the entire length of a bus route.
And each stop removal increases rider commute times - now I have to walk 5 minutes longer to get a bus that's 2 minutes faster. Overall commute: 3 minutes longer. Plus each stop removal decreases the number of people served - if the old stop was a ten minute walk and the new one is a fifteen minute walk, you'll just stop taking transit altogether.
So in general, stop removal is not at all a panacea and is often a 100% negative to transit riders.
What actually works: getting rid of ride-hailing and other things that tend to clog the streets with empty, dead-heading vehicles; dedicated bus lanes and general banning of single-passenger automobiles; congestion charges; making sure transit is frequent and inexpensive so that it works well for people; etc.
[+] [-] lmilcin|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xtiansimon|6 years ago|reply
What's more, NYC is rolling out contactless payment for subways. Some of the select buses _appear_ to be equipped for this service as well. Currently, to use the Select service you must buy a ticket curbside at the stop.
[+] [-] mirimir|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaronbrethorst|6 years ago|reply
OneBusAway, or OBA, in case you aren't familiar with it, is an open source real time transit information system, and includes a full backend, plus iOS and Android client apps. OBA had belonged to the University of Washington until recently, when it was spun out into a new 501(c)(3) non-profit, called the Open Transit Software Foundation: https://opentransitsoftwarefoundation.org
(n.b. I'm the maintainer of OneBusAway for iOS, and a member of the OTSF board.)
[+] [-] xtiansimon|6 years ago|reply
This space has very tangible information/ux problems.
[+] [-] windthrown|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] irrational|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] treis|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fmajid|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duxup|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] linuxftw|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pgrote|6 years ago|reply
It is a metro area where most of the jobs are spread out among distinct suburb areas. The remaining routes do not travel among the suburbs with regularity; the focus is on suburbs to downtown and within the city proper.
[+] [-] techsupporter|6 years ago|reply
Routes that had been 15-minute some of the day and dropping to 30-minute or an hour on weekends (or did not run at all) were upgraded. Major trunk routes, not just ones to downtown but crosstown routes and routes through underserved areas, got upgraded to sub-10-minute frequency during peak commute and many now run all day at no less often than every 15 minutes. Add in two new light rail stations opening in the densest part of the city and ridership has been up.
But, of course, no good thing goes untouched. Last year, statewide voters approved an initiative that guts Seattle's ability to tax ourselves for transit ("$30" car tabs, which are nothing of the sort since even that initiative doesn't reduce vehicle registration costs to $30). If the initiative is upheld--still in doubt because the sponsor of the initiative is not known for writing initiatives that are legally sound, because if they stayed in effect he wouldn't get paid to keep running them--it's going to not only blow a hole in our light rail construction but also cut local bus service by 20-30%.
In any rate, we've proven that if you invest in good service that runs a lot of the time, people will use it.
[+] [-] xtiansimon|6 years ago|reply
Now, in addition to eliminating routes which predated their contract, they have dead times in the middle of the day, gaps after "peak" times (which in my case put a 2 hour hole between 1800h and 2000h on my line). And they've canceled service on Sunday and on some lines both Saturday and Sunday.
In the latter case I'm sure NICE would say the LIRR is an alternative, but on the weekend that runs every 2 hours and costs $9 one way versus $2.75
And if you're fortunate enough to make some use of the system, there is no expectation it will still work for you later, because of the contraction cycle the parent described--Every 6-12 months schedules change.
I can't help thinking of companies like Walmart who move into areas, drive out small businesses, and then decide to pull out of town. Of course, it's a free market and they can do that, but in the case of public transit in the hands of private for profit companies it's a terrible burden on anyone who doesn't have a car.
And Nassau County has some of the highest taxes in the nation. Go figure.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transdev
[+] [-] cameldrv|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] clairity|6 years ago|reply
from my experience (in LA), they're often no faster than buses for short trips (up to ~4 miles). between 4-6, it's typically breakeven. for trips over ~6 miles, shared/pool rides are usually faster (and gets more so with longer distances).
but note that the bulk of bus trips are under 10 miles, so it takes some thought to get the best bang for buck.
[+] [-] freepor|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carapace|6 years ago|reply
And people stopped waiting for others to disembark before boarding. That's the weirdest thing: the bus stops, the doors open, and the people waiting to board just start piling in before the people coming off have left. Maybe that's only in SF.
And then there's this:
> In Gavin Newsom’s book Citizenville he talked about how, after becoming SF mayor, he discovered that fare collection cost as much as the revenue generated from fares. He started the process of making the bus free but was told by so many advisors that the busses would become “dumpsters on wheels,” from a combination of homeless people using them for shelter and people not respecting services that are free, that the plan was scrapped.
~ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21808851
It blows my mind, and it makes me resent paying the fares at all.
[+] [-] dec0dedab0de|6 years ago|reply
At first it was because my personal schedule, and my bus schedule changed just enough to make it annoying to make it to work on time, and almost impossible to avoid routes that spent most of their time in an extremely high crime area. So most of the time I drove to the train.
Then I got a new job working from home, and I stopped taking the bus and the train. I must say that I miss the bus quite a bit. It was the most books I've ever read recreationally. I even taught myself python on the bus, which lead to the new job.
I also used to take the bus when I thought I would be drinking, and uber/lyft have completely replaced that.
[+] [-] ArtDev|6 years ago|reply
How about a button at each stop, with a live estimate when the bus will arrive?
Currently, the bus system is like a newspaper. Inconvenient, messy and smells bad.
[+] [-] nkrisc|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frandroid|6 years ago|reply
There are already many, many apps for that.
Google Maps will give you some decent good route mapping and alternatives, though less realtime than apps that use data back ends like NextBus.
You can do better routing than Google if you're familiar with a route/combination and its intricacies, but if you're in a part of town you don't know as much, Google Maps' transit routing is a godsend.
[+] [-] longtimegoogler|6 years ago|reply
It seems like cities like NY and San Francisco have the density to support similar systems.
[+] [-] gmmeyer|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pge|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gpapilion|6 years ago|reply
The design of munis modern fleet has reduced the seat and isle space. Standing is hard because your always in the way, and the redesign to accommodate more handicap seating has really reduced regular seating that could be perpendicular to the length of the bus.
Reliability is the other issue. Main lines are very reliable, but meandering cross town routes make a two bus commute undesirable.
[+] [-] benatkin|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ConsiderCrying|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] asdff|6 years ago|reply
Despite the proportions of ridership being low, functionally it is pretty high, and the entire transit network does hit capacity during rush hours.
[+] [-] ycombonator|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Sam_Harris|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] lenepp|6 years ago|reply
There's a scene in Mad Men that I always like to bring up when it comes to things like this, where the Drapers are having a picnic in a bucolic park, and then they just get up and walk away, leaving their trash behind. It looks crazy and stupid to us now, because we all collectively woke up and realized that damaging the world around us makes life worse.
People are using buses less partly for the same reason that they stopped littering, and normal cars have gotten steadily quieter over the years: they're waking up to how painfully awful city buses are.
The day will come when someone will make a show about our times, and it will feature a city bus pulling up and drowning out a conversation, and all the characters in the scene, who ignore it or just start shouting over it without thinking, will look as ridiculous to future viewers, as the Drapers did to us in that scene.
[+] [-] BubRoss|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ganzuul|6 years ago|reply
Perhaps the culture really is that diffrent in the U.S., that I never expected someone to prefer personal vehicles to public transit for environmental reasons.