Sorry, I can't hear about gender in engineering jobs anymore.
The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker".
We do not need to artificially try to bring in more engineers of a certain gender just because the numbers don't make sense.
And we do not need more blog posts calling out our oddities as engineers. We all dress like dorks. We all have our quirks. Get over it.
She doesn't mention it, but another great thing about being an engineer is that engineers are quite egalitarian and the evaluation criteria is often very objective (speed of the code, complexity of the algorithm, etc.). As a result, women just have to be good at what they do, and there's hardly any discrimination. In other fields, often, for a woman to just be good is not enough; there is overt (or covert) discrimination, "old boys" networks, etc.
// male here, but with several female engineer friends
I don't know. Engineers in general may be more impressed with skill than non-engineers, but as a woman in a technical field, I do feel constant pressure to not merely meet, but exceed, the abilities of my male peers in order to receive the same level of respect. I've felt it all my life, even as far back as middle and high school, competing in math competitions and our school's academic team, and being in the honors and AP classes.
It's not an overt thing. There's never any one comment or specific action by an individual you can point at and say, "See! Right there! You aren't giving me equal respect!" but the pressure is definitely there.
Also, the converse is true. Not only do you have to be better, to be seen as equal, anything you do wrong is magnified. Would Leah Culver's "creative" rounding method have been nearly a big deal if she'd been male? I have the feeling that while people would still have joked about it, it wouldn't have been as widespread or for as long.
That's a nice thought, but the real promotions often happen on the grounds of "leadership", "management" and "communication skills", which women are often perceived to lack.
Or maybe you work in a more egalitarian place than me.
I'm going to assume both you and Jean Hsu wouldn't be serious when they said that. In that case, if you were to say that, the angry horde would consist of women that didn't know you and were taking your words at face value, because guys have been known to actually feel that way. Those women would give Jean Hsu the benefit of the doubt, because there are few women known to have actually ever felt that way. However, with people you know, who understood the broader context of what you were saying, it wouldn't (shouldn't) be a problem.
"I like some female colleagues among my male colleagues for a number of reasons, but the fact that they tend to bring brownies definitely stands out for me, because I love brownies." There, defused the entire problem?
When people ask me how it is to work in a male-dominated workplace, I always point out "no drama". I've gotten away with it so far.
To contrast, my wife works in a female-dominated kindergarden. There's so much "did you see the way X Looked at me", "Y ran crying from the meeting", "Z said Good Morning to W, but did you hear the tone of her voice?" going on it's making my head spin.
I also used to work in a logistic firm that was staffed pretty 50/50. Some days, there was enough drama to put a soap opera writer to shame. Though I suspect constant layoffs and competitive promotion jostling did its bit to fuel that.
I'm sorry if this makes me come out as sexist, but to the best of my empirical knowledge, women are more drama-prone than men.
A lot of people are not going to like this type of post (as witnessed by the response here), but like any news outlet, sensationalist news sells. Jean Hsu is just following Gary V's advice and building up brand equity. There is no better way than to use your various circumstances in life to build a considerable amount of valley buzz.
Well played. I would do it too if I were in your shoes.
PS. Out of the last 10 hires I made for my previous startup, 3 of them were woman. I believe that's higher than industry standards.
As for the casual attire, I think it goes both ways. I'm totally into casual most of the times (to the point of wearing my head-to-toe footed pajamas to work), but then the days when I want to dress up or wear a mini-skirt or whatever, I feel like I'm standing out a bit too much and wish I was in the pop music industry instead. But alas, I have no singing talent and no autotune device, so back to coding I go.
Sometimes the men want to dress up too. If I wore a tie every day I'm sure I'd hate the bloody thing, but it is nice to occasionally get the boost one gets from dressing up. But a tie at work is definitely taboo, much more than a mini-skirt, since it sends really strong signals.
The only time I've worn a tie at work is when I've had a funeral in the afternoon, and when I drove straight to work after a party in Montreal. A suit with that slept-in look sends signals, but it doesn't imply to your co-workers that you have political ambitions.
>..when I want to dress up or wear a mini-skirt or whatever, I feel like I'm standing out a bit too much..
This is my experience too. Whenever I think about wearing something a bit fancy (that would be totally acceptable in another field) I feel a bit self conscious.
"You also get the added bonus of seeing people's confused reactions when they ask you if you're in marketing, and you tell them that you are a developer."
This sentence really surprised me. How often does this happen? Female engineers are a minority, but I wouldn't have imagined it would be that big a deal to run into a female engineer.
I recently wrote an autobiographical paper from the perspective of women in technology for class. I found that women represent under 9% of the developers/designers at the company I work for, under 5% of the core developers on open source projects I contribute to, and under 3% of the contributors to those projects. So while I personally wouldn't make that assumption, it's probably not a bad one, statically speaking, for many software engineers.
In 14 years, this has never happened to me. Never in a corporate environment nor in a geek conference.
Frankly, everywhere I worked, be it a startup or a huge corporation, I never felt discrimination or disbelief at what I do. In the corporate world, particularly in finance and insurance, there are a lot of female developers. They're around 60% of the IT staff, from what I've personally seen in the places where I've consulted at. In the startup and more "geeky" environments, female devs are very rare. Currently I'm going on the theory that the type of person that seeks an IT job in the corporate world is different from the one that goes to startups. The degrees they have are subtly different (Business CS vs CS), their professional needs are different (stable long term employment with low risk, low % of innovation, high % of project/code maintenance in the corporate world). To me it seems obvious that there are many more women leaning towards the corporate profile than there are for the startup profile. Why this is, I'm still working on that.
Regardless of how many women there are, I have never witnessed the sort of disbelief that that phrase shows. I don't know why she says this happens, maybe it's a cultural thing where she's from.
Happens mostly at conferences for me, sometimes at networking events. Especially if I'm at an open source software booth. I don't look like "a hacker", so prevailing stereotypes apply. Last year it happened at least once at each of 3 conferences I attended and staffed a booth at last year.
I've gotten this a couple of times. I wouldn't think it would happen in the valley as much, but I'm from Texas where you really don't see that many female software developers.
Add to the list another 'benefit': Getting immediate attention from any male dominated forum (case in point: HN).
Having worked with female colleagues (EEs), I have found much more diversity than common behavior. These sort of articles certainly do not reflect my experience (as a male).
I'm very glad my girlfriend is not a developer (and she is very glad I'm not a geologist). I quite enjoy the escape from coding that she provides for me.
Until recently, I've found that claims of sexism in software were strange (I'll share a story below to explain). If anything, I've generally found that men tend to be thrilled at having women working with them, and not for the seedy sort of ways that might be expected. Most of the male software engineers I've known honestly wonder why their field has so few women in it -- known that women are full and well as smart and capable as they. I've heard of no (until recently) cases of misconduct, or uncomfortable work environments -- on the contrary, I've usually heard that when a woman engineer claims that she'd like something to make her environment better, her management will bend over backwards to try and accommodate. I have heard of the usual pay issues and promotion problems. But in most cases it seems to just be a matter of not asking for them.
At any rate, the lack of representation of women in software is a huge problem in the field since it cuts off effectively half of the possible work force. More importantly, software that might better reach the female audience doesn't get written, services don't get created, etc.
Now the story.
My wife is a software engineer, her last job was a technical department head at a company with about 40% female software engineers. It wasn't super high-end work, but it provided services and data worth about $30-40million/yr to some very major institutions, so it had to be rock solid.
Her immediate boss was a woman, and 3 out of 4 department heads were women. Her boss's boss was a man.
Before that she worked for a $2billion dollar large company. In her department, there were about 30% female engineers (though in another technical department there were none, go fig). (her immediate super was a woman, but later changed to a man).
Before that she worked at an e-commerce company, of the engineering staff were women, her boss was a man, but his boss was a woman.
In every case they produced great, solid work, the companies were wildly profitable, her career progressed fantastically -- and she never complained about problems with sexism. Maybe she's been lucky, she never sought out these places, but that's where she ended up. (it could be that having so many women in the first placed altered the hiring dynamics so that they would tend to hire more women later)
Late last year, at the company she worked for, they brought in a new COO and within 4 months everything changed. Women managers were promoted up and over or moved laterally into diminished positions. Men with no engineering experience were brought in as department supervisors. My wife had her department entirely eliminated and her staff placed under all new male supervisors. One woman engineer was fired because she botched a minor product management job while a male engineer was promoted to department head right after complaints of rampant racism and sexism were formally filed against him.
My wife was devastated, she tried to stick it out, but the writing was on the wall and after a few miserable, tortuous months, I convinced her to resign. It was the first time she (or I for that matter) had seen or experienced such rampant and overt sexism.
Three months after she leaves we find out from her former colleagues that the COO was fired, and that 3 out of 4 major development projects have to be scrapped (at a total loss of $7-9 million) and the company is running in the red (in a recession proof industry).
If she had stayed her problems would now be over and she might have been able to work the problem to her advantage.
But, the good side is that she's now trying to startup her own company, brushing the dust off of long dormant engineering talents, and is happier than I've ever known her to be since she's doing her own thing and writing her own rules. Her job satisfaction appears to be off the charts and I don't think I've ever seen her work so hard.
Honestly, your story sounds like a typical corporate power struggle which happened to affect a department which was (by some fluke) full of women.
If you read about HP under Fiorina, you hear a similar story. Techies were pushed aside and replaced by Fiorina's cronies (mostly marketers), and the company suffered horribly. Such stories don't always end in disaster - a certain investment bank recently brought on a new IT chief who is well known for destroying a broken department and rebuilding a highly efficient one in it's place.
The process also involves firing many managers and replacing them with people loyal to him, pushing out lots of insiders, huge numbers of formerly comfortable people quitting in disgust, etc.
The only unusual element in your story ("her staff placed under new male supervisors") sounds like reversion to the mean - as you noted, "in another technical department there were none [women]". Perhaps there are other elements to the story that you haven't mentioned, but your description just sounds like normal corporate politics.
Yes, there is sexism. It exists everywhere, not confined to any particular profession. The company where she suffered that probably had women in totally different areas that also suffered from that. That is despicable, dishonest and repulsive. But it doesn't have much to do with the culture of software engineering itself, which on a technical level is very egalitarian in terms of really not caring whether you're male, female or a super intelligent shade of the color blue.
Regarding the part about being lucky at working in companies with a large % of women in It, there are a surprising number of women in engineering departments in large companies, especially when the companies are not actual software companies, they do business in other areas and have large IT departments to support the business internally. Because the culture in these is not really a startup culture, you really don't hear about most people in there. For the most part they aren't posting in HN or doing technical blogs or participating much in the "geek" community - and so this community doesn't actually realize they exist, and when people talk about the lack of women in IT, they're really talking about the lack of women in the open source and startup cultures.
In the end, it sounds like she had a really hard time, but she got out in time and in one piece, and she's more productive than ever, which is great. And good to hear that the COO got kicked out, it's good to know insanity doesn't go unnoticed forever. Thanks for sharing! Best of luck with the new startup!
Pretty much the same benefits when you're a guy working in a company filled with women. I just take the extra drama with the infinite supply of brownies every day.
Another relatively male-dominated field is banking (although probably less so than programming), yet one can argue that there's plenty of drama operating within those concrete towers.
What differentiates the level of "drama" between the banking industry from the software programming industry? Is it because engineering is inherently more meritocratic and less egotistical? Or is there just too much money and power at stake when it comes to banking that one can't help but get involved in more politicking? Does the (presence or absence of any one)gender come into play at all?
Beggars can't be choosers perhaps but couldn't both halves of a relationship being similar get ubalanced? Maybe just a little bit more understanding, or opportunitiy, makes up for that...
The few women I've worked alongside as a software engineer have been fantastic. Easy to get along with, able to focus on work tasks and still have a great lunchtime conversation, with no alpha-nerd pedantic B.S.
The women I've worked for (three) have been universally terrible. Each in slightly different ways, but all had a strange, overcompensating quality to them. I'll just have to say it: bitchiness. Strange, control-freak tendencies and subsequent drama.
I've worked for two great male bosses, two idiots, and one brilliant guy who was an asshole (but at least he could be reasoned with). I would take all but one of the male bosses over any of the female bosses.
My conclusion isn't that women are bad managers, or anything like that. Rather, I believe it shows that people with lousy people skills are distributed across both sexes, and promoting worker bees to management positions is not an ideal plan.
I've had similar experiences. I think it's possible that the deck is stacked enough against women getting into positions of power that in general the women who get promoted past a certain level are the ones who overcompensate and act more like the stereotypical "ruthless businessman". Then again, that's kind of true for guys too (although to a lesser extent).
I confirm this experience and the anecdotal evidence I gathered is quite similar.
Edit: Almost forgot - I also had a female boss I would work for in a beat. I must mention that she was more of a tomboy - but still what a woman: pragmatic, ambitious, decisive, tough but fair. All the general qualities one would expect from a man, but with added softness of female persuasion and communication skills.
But anyone remember the report a couple of decades back about water usage after the US Navy started letting women on ships? Having ladies around made the guys shower more often. Empirically, I can verify that, since getting married, I do tend to shave more often.
I'd like stereotypes like that not to be true, but at my last two jobs I had coworkers who obviously did not shower regularly. It seems like something about programming gives people the idea that they can let their hygiene go in a way that no other white-collar workplace would tolerate. Or maybe I've just been unlucky.
Actually, this is both true and false. I have a friend who I know for a fact showers every day, and yet I wouldn't want to sit next to him while working. So while one might remember to shower, that does not guarantee that the impression will last.
On the flip side of the coin, this also reminds me that I should probably shower.
Also, even if they shower less often, they still don't stink as badly. Women start sweating at a higher temperature than men, so tend to sweat considerably less.
[+] [-] yuvadam|15 years ago|reply
The likelihood that you will see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male software engineer" is exactly the same as the likelihood to see a blog post about the "benefits of being a male social worker".
We do not need to artificially try to bring in more engineers of a certain gender just because the numbers don't make sense.
And we do not need more blog posts calling out our oddities as engineers. We all dress like dorks. We all have our quirks. Get over it.
[+] [-] ajays|15 years ago|reply
// male here, but with several female engineer friends
[+] [-] cowpewter|15 years ago|reply
It's not an overt thing. There's never any one comment or specific action by an individual you can point at and say, "See! Right there! You aren't giving me equal respect!" but the pressure is definitely there.
Also, the converse is true. Not only do you have to be better, to be seen as equal, anything you do wrong is magnified. Would Leah Culver's "creative" rounding method have been nearly a big deal if she'd been male? I have the feeling that while people would still have joked about it, it wouldn't have been as widespread or for as long.
[+] [-] wisty|15 years ago|reply
Or maybe you work in a more egalitarian place than me.
[+] [-] andrewvc|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeanhsu|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sthatipamala|15 years ago|reply
If I were to say "I like having women at work, especially when they make brownies and are not bitches," I'd have an angry horde at my door.
But Jean Hsu thinks it is okay to say it because she is a woman?
[+] [-] Confusion|15 years ago|reply
"I like some female colleagues among my male colleagues for a number of reasons, but the fact that they tend to bring brownies definitely stands out for me, because I love brownies." There, defused the entire problem?
[+] [-] cookiecaper|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alinajaf|15 years ago|reply
A male developer saying that would _so_ not get away with it :P
[+] [-] Deestan|15 years ago|reply
To contrast, my wife works in a female-dominated kindergarden. There's so much "did you see the way X Looked at me", "Y ran crying from the meeting", "Z said Good Morning to W, but did you hear the tone of her voice?" going on it's making my head spin.
I also used to work in a logistic firm that was staffed pretty 50/50. Some days, there was enough drama to put a soap opera writer to shame. Though I suspect constant layoffs and competitive promotion jostling did its bit to fuel that.
I'm sorry if this makes me come out as sexist, but to the best of my empirical knowledge, women are more drama-prone than men.
http://www.boctaoe.com/
[+] [-] VladRussian|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VladRussian|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dominostars|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rtaycher|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeklaas|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] charlesju|15 years ago|reply
A lot of people are not going to like this type of post (as witnessed by the response here), but like any news outlet, sensationalist news sells. Jean Hsu is just following Gary V's advice and building up brand equity. There is no better way than to use your various circumstances in life to build a considerable amount of valley buzz.
Well played. I would do it too if I were in your shoes.
PS. Out of the last 10 hires I made for my previous startup, 3 of them were woman. I believe that's higher than industry standards.
[+] [-] yuvadam|15 years ago|reply
PS. 30% women hires is pretty much the industry average.
[+] [-] pamelafox|15 years ago|reply
As for the casual attire, I think it goes both ways. I'm totally into casual most of the times (to the point of wearing my head-to-toe footed pajamas to work), but then the days when I want to dress up or wear a mini-skirt or whatever, I feel like I'm standing out a bit too much and wish I was in the pop music industry instead. But alas, I have no singing talent and no autotune device, so back to coding I go.
[+] [-] bryanlarsen|15 years ago|reply
The only time I've worn a tie at work is when I've had a funeral in the afternoon, and when I drove straight to work after a party in Montreal. A suit with that slept-in look sends signals, but it doesn't imply to your co-workers that you have political ambitions.
[+] [-] kaylarose|15 years ago|reply
This is my experience too. Whenever I think about wearing something a bit fancy (that would be totally acceptable in another field) I feel a bit self conscious.
[+] [-] edanm|15 years ago|reply
This sentence really surprised me. How often does this happen? Female engineers are a minority, but I wouldn't have imagined it would be that big a deal to run into a female engineer.
[+] [-] kingkilr|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sh4na|15 years ago|reply
Frankly, everywhere I worked, be it a startup or a huge corporation, I never felt discrimination or disbelief at what I do. In the corporate world, particularly in finance and insurance, there are a lot of female developers. They're around 60% of the IT staff, from what I've personally seen in the places where I've consulted at. In the startup and more "geeky" environments, female devs are very rare. Currently I'm going on the theory that the type of person that seeks an IT job in the corporate world is different from the one that goes to startups. The degrees they have are subtly different (Business CS vs CS), their professional needs are different (stable long term employment with low risk, low % of innovation, high % of project/code maintenance in the corporate world). To me it seems obvious that there are many more women leaning towards the corporate profile than there are for the startup profile. Why this is, I'm still working on that.
Regardless of how many women there are, I have never witnessed the sort of disbelief that that phrase shows. I don't know why she says this happens, maybe it's a cultural thing where she's from.
[+] [-] selenamarie|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] naqabas|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nimrody|15 years ago|reply
Having worked with female colleagues (EEs), I have found much more diversity than common behavior. These sort of articles certainly do not reflect my experience (as a male).
[+] [-] city41|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bane|15 years ago|reply
At any rate, the lack of representation of women in software is a huge problem in the field since it cuts off effectively half of the possible work force. More importantly, software that might better reach the female audience doesn't get written, services don't get created, etc.
Now the story.
My wife is a software engineer, her last job was a technical department head at a company with about 40% female software engineers. It wasn't super high-end work, but it provided services and data worth about $30-40million/yr to some very major institutions, so it had to be rock solid.
Her immediate boss was a woman, and 3 out of 4 department heads were women. Her boss's boss was a man.
Before that she worked for a $2billion dollar large company. In her department, there were about 30% female engineers (though in another technical department there were none, go fig). (her immediate super was a woman, but later changed to a man).
Before that she worked at an e-commerce company, of the engineering staff were women, her boss was a man, but his boss was a woman.
In every case they produced great, solid work, the companies were wildly profitable, her career progressed fantastically -- and she never complained about problems with sexism. Maybe she's been lucky, she never sought out these places, but that's where she ended up. (it could be that having so many women in the first placed altered the hiring dynamics so that they would tend to hire more women later)
Late last year, at the company she worked for, they brought in a new COO and within 4 months everything changed. Women managers were promoted up and over or moved laterally into diminished positions. Men with no engineering experience were brought in as department supervisors. My wife had her department entirely eliminated and her staff placed under all new male supervisors. One woman engineer was fired because she botched a minor product management job while a male engineer was promoted to department head right after complaints of rampant racism and sexism were formally filed against him.
My wife was devastated, she tried to stick it out, but the writing was on the wall and after a few miserable, tortuous months, I convinced her to resign. It was the first time she (or I for that matter) had seen or experienced such rampant and overt sexism.
Three months after she leaves we find out from her former colleagues that the COO was fired, and that 3 out of 4 major development projects have to be scrapped (at a total loss of $7-9 million) and the company is running in the red (in a recession proof industry).
If she had stayed her problems would now be over and she might have been able to work the problem to her advantage.
But, the good side is that she's now trying to startup her own company, brushing the dust off of long dormant engineering talents, and is happier than I've ever known her to be since she's doing her own thing and writing her own rules. Her job satisfaction appears to be off the charts and I don't think I've ever seen her work so hard.
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|15 years ago|reply
If you read about HP under Fiorina, you hear a similar story. Techies were pushed aside and replaced by Fiorina's cronies (mostly marketers), and the company suffered horribly. Such stories don't always end in disaster - a certain investment bank recently brought on a new IT chief who is well known for destroying a broken department and rebuilding a highly efficient one in it's place.
The process also involves firing many managers and replacing them with people loyal to him, pushing out lots of insiders, huge numbers of formerly comfortable people quitting in disgust, etc.
The only unusual element in your story ("her staff placed under new male supervisors") sounds like reversion to the mean - as you noted, "in another technical department there were none [women]". Perhaps there are other elements to the story that you haven't mentioned, but your description just sounds like normal corporate politics.
[+] [-] sh4na|15 years ago|reply
Regarding the part about being lucky at working in companies with a large % of women in It, there are a surprising number of women in engineering departments in large companies, especially when the companies are not actual software companies, they do business in other areas and have large IT departments to support the business internally. Because the culture in these is not really a startup culture, you really don't hear about most people in there. For the most part they aren't posting in HN or doing technical blogs or participating much in the "geek" community - and so this community doesn't actually realize they exist, and when people talk about the lack of women in IT, they're really talking about the lack of women in the open source and startup cultures.
In the end, it sounds like she had a really hard time, but she got out in time and in one piece, and she's more productive than ever, which is great. And good to hear that the COO got kicked out, it's good to know insanity doesn't go unnoticed forever. Thanks for sharing! Best of luck with the new startup!
[+] [-] JoeAltmaier|15 years ago|reply
Because if it was sexism, depending upon the state, the women in that company could own the company, after lawsuits.
[+] [-] Bvalmont|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fedd|15 years ago|reply
> if you are a single female you can have first pick of a lot of really nice available guys
just nice and life-asserting. for me.
[+] [-] danac|15 years ago|reply
What differentiates the level of "drama" between the banking industry from the software programming industry? Is it because engineering is inherently more meritocratic and less egotistical? Or is there just too much money and power at stake when it comes to banking that one can't help but get involved in more politicking? Does the (presence or absence of any one)gender come into play at all?
[+] [-] benatkin|15 years ago|reply
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2272748
(It's by the author of an article that made the front page earlier today.)
[+] [-] waynecolvin|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] georgieporgie|15 years ago|reply
The few women I've worked alongside as a software engineer have been fantastic. Easy to get along with, able to focus on work tasks and still have a great lunchtime conversation, with no alpha-nerd pedantic B.S.
The women I've worked for (three) have been universally terrible. Each in slightly different ways, but all had a strange, overcompensating quality to them. I'll just have to say it: bitchiness. Strange, control-freak tendencies and subsequent drama.
I've worked for two great male bosses, two idiots, and one brilliant guy who was an asshole (but at least he could be reasoned with). I would take all but one of the male bosses over any of the female bosses.
My conclusion isn't that women are bad managers, or anything like that. Rather, I believe it shows that people with lousy people skills are distributed across both sexes, and promoting worker bees to management positions is not an ideal plan.
[+] [-] jarin|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JanezStupar|15 years ago|reply
Edit: Almost forgot - I also had a female boss I would work for in a beat. I must mention that she was more of a tomboy - but still what a woman: pragmatic, ambitious, decisive, tough but fair. All the general qualities one would expect from a man, but with added softness of female persuasion and communication skills.
[+] [-] tastybites|15 years ago|reply
Oh, come on.
[+] [-] 1337p337|15 years ago|reply
But anyone remember the report a couple of decades back about water usage after the US Navy started letting women on ships? Having ladies around made the guys shower more often. Empirically, I can verify that, since getting married, I do tend to shave more often.
[+] [-] bluesnowmonkey|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] josegonzalez|15 years ago|reply
On the flip side of the coin, this also reminds me that I should probably shower.
[+] [-] bryanlarsen|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]