I generally don't have a problem with developers having conversations with companies running platforms they're building on, but come on. The sense of entitlement is sickening.
Could android do things better? Sure. But to act as if Google has a responsibility to the developers is a little bit far fetched, IMHO.
Whether or not Google has a responsibility isn't really the question. The fact is that developers care about two things when they decide which platforms to make apps on. 1) Where is the money, and 2) How easy is it to create apps on that platform.
Just recently there was a blog post about a developer complaining about how hard it was to make apps on the new Blackberry tablet.
So, in my mind, no Google doesn't really have a responsibility to make developers happy. But, yes they have good business reasons to: more and more people flock to the OS's with the best apps. As for whether or not these exact demands are fair or not I can't comment because I don't develop for Android, but I can definitively say Google should take heed and make sure they can continue to be seen as a developer-friendly OS.
I think all of these corporations do have a responsibility to create reasonable conditions for developers - but I agree, these demands are quite unrealistic.
Are there any other marketplaces which already grant what's being asked for?
This is just a waste of time, ughh. If you don't like the market - don't use it. There are other markets, or you could create your own.
The sense of entitlement is astounding. They don't force you to use the market, give you tools and everything for free. It's unbelievable. Yes, the markets not perfect, but imho stuff like this is worse and just creates meaningless controversy and wastes everyones time.
I don't think it does any harm - people need an opportunity to voice their opinion and to be heard. But I think in this case, some of the demands are pretty unrealistic.
I think that's the whole point - they're essentially threatening that without these fixes to make developing and marketing easier, they'll go and find a different platform that will meet their needs.
What about letting people from more countries sell applications on the Market?
I know a couple of folks -- long time Mac users and developers who did not want to develop for iOS on moral grounds -- who built some breathtakingly beautiful apps for Android. Simple apps. Prototypes, meant to test the Androidian waters. Beautiful nonetheless. They are currently thinking of moving to iOS because Indian developers can't sell apps on the Market.
I also know people who make spacecargoloads of money selling iOS apps from India. An organization I visited last week wants to build a few iOS applications. They already have a developer license. They considered Android ... for about 30 seconds. They quickly scraped all their Android plans the moment I told them they couldn't sell applications from India.
Never let another company step in between you and your customers. American manufacturers learned this and now software development has moved in the same direction. Oh well. There are still plenty of opportunities. We laugh at the demanding tone of this "union," now but I suspect there will be a time when we wish something like this took off.
Oh come on guys! I thought HN is better then saying 'If you don't like it then don't use it'.
Do you really think that this has any value? I don't want to be harsh but since when is this constructive criticism?
If you don't like this post please say WHY you don't like it and give some feedback HOW it would be better.
And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for it. I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. They should lower the rate or give some more support to developers.
I really welcome criticism to any platform cause you can grow with it BUT without it you don't know what you are doing wrong, right?
To be honest I'm mostly an iOS developer but I developed already a Android App and successfully put into the Android Market for free.
> And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair
to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their
earnings and getting nearly nothing for it.
They avoid having to pay credit card processing fees, which on a cheap app probably eat most of the 30%. They don't have to write their own payment handling code. They don't have to write and host their own download servers. They don't need to worry about things like re-authenticating downloads for users upgrading to a new device. They get their apps listed on the Market and thus have their app be discoverable in the place where most Android users will look for apps. They get access to the other Market infrastructure like in-app purchases and the licensing server.
You think that's not providing any value? Then it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that you switch to the alternative that you think provides better value. After all, Android does allow for alternative app stores and for side loading of apps.
> I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway.
That's a strange definition of "fair" you have there.
This guy should be banned from the Market simply so Google doesn't have to waste oxygen looking at his support requests.
Anyone who takes the time to put together a list of hard-hitting business requests like 'algorithmic transparency' is going to ever, ever, ever have a hit consumer application. The linked list isn't about making more money, it's about ideological purity.
> The current Market provides only very vague guidelines about what is and isn't acceptable content on the market. Many developers have had their applications removed without warning, without notice and without explanation. These rejections have come with no method of appeal.
> We demand that Google strictly codify the rules of the Market, and that any removals must be accompanied with a complete explanation and reference to the specific rules violated, and with a formal method for appeal.
I don't see much of a problem with the Market. Sure it could be better, but it could be a lot worse. I'd rather have them continue to spend developers' time and energy making Android competitive so we have a market to sell our apps, instead of catering to our every need.
iOS is more open than Android from where I stand. I live in India. A few months ago, I couldn't purchase Android applications. As of now, I can purchase applications but not sell them.
People defend Apple too. There's a strong free market mindset behind this. We do have choices or at least the ability to influence the market by our own choices. I don't see any problem with these folks raising some valid issues, even if they do it in less than tactful fashion, but ultimately they are fighting a losing battle. Android, in its most accessible form, is not going to be the open platform some people envisioned. Google is not going to magically become as adept as Apple at selling things. Google isn't doing these things because they want to piss off developers and neither is Apple. They're doing it because they either just don't get it or they are putting their own best interests first. I think most of us relate to this because it's the same basic choice individuals make managing their own personal/financial affairs. I'm not going to hold Google or Apple to a higher standard but I will be happy to vote with my dollars if they challenge my best interests or if some new player happens to do it better.
I'd just be happy if the market numbers updated more frequently than every couple days. My ad impression stats update in realtime. Why can't my downloads and error stats do the same?
The site frames the google-developers as a conflict between enemies, like unions usually do. Neither Apple or Google are getting unreasonable profits from their 30%share as they reinvest more than 90% of this money in infrastructure, as Apple had clarified a lot of times.
If you make a great app, your users win,you win, and Google wins too. I bet they are too much wins for the site creator prejudices and believes. He has the mentality that for someone to win someone has to lose, the "survival" or "fight" mentality.
If you sell a software application over traditional channels like retail expect getting less than 10%, as every intermediary layer doubles the price, e.g that was what the game "Commandos behind the enemy lines" got when Pyro studios gave us a talk. Steam, Amazon, Apple, O'Reilly or Google are very good opportunities for direct sales today.
I'm not going to talk about the entitlement tone because other people had done already, but the "demands" I see are not the main problems Android has today, for example I don't see "Adding support for more countries in the world, like Apple does". He is focused on getting more share of the cake instead of making a bigger one, IMHO this is a bad strategy.
A union has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with collective bargaining. When parties negotiate as a group, they can get a better deal. The drawback is that you must dilute your own interests with those of everyone else. But when all members have roughly the same interests, it's worthwhile.
All this site has to say is that the new curated app platforms are creating a huge power imbalance, and the way to even the field is to unionize. All the ideology just muddies the water and leads to endless bickering.
What's missing from this post is the better Android Market app and ecosystem he designed and developed.. The only limiting factor is his willingness to educate himself.
I think the biggest effect is often being able to start (or add weight to) a conversation within a wider community (eg. specialist or mainstream media). In that respect, I think petitions can be an effective part of a marketing campaign.
> We demand that Google renegotiate this rate, either to a much lower percentage (preferably, no percentage) or give us some value for our money in terms of Market curation and support.
So either lower the price or add multi week review process followed by arbitrary denials?
regarding the first point about 32% take, below is my cut'n'paste from the same issue on the Apple platform. At least on Android you can sideload. Summary: "If you want to do business, you have to pay for services. Deal with it".
If you think otherwise, well, there's a market full of screaming developers with little business experience, and this is the 'home of startups' - there's a startup idea to capitalise on.
----
I don't like Apple's business practises and never have, but this 70/30 split furore is hilarious to someone who has worked in retail and supply before. It is entirely normal for a retailer (apple) to take this kind of split in the retail price and the supplier/wholesaler to take 70%. In the retail industry I worked in, the retailer took a 35-40% portion.
This split is yawningly normal in retail. What's not normal is the huge numbers of "one-person" wholesalers... who have very little in the way of business experience and see that split as a "tax" rather than payment for a service.
Apple and Google may mark their apps up less than the average department store or grocery store, but it marks them up a hell of a lot more than most highly-efficient retail operations. Walmart marks up around 20%, and Costco never marks its products up more than 14%. And actual retail stores need to pay for their property, their employees, transportation, and utilities to keep their stores running. Apple and Google have none of these expenses. Additionally, both Apple and Google only operate app stores as side businesses to help sell their high margin hardware or get people to look at ads.
I expected to see Apple/Google conflated in the reaction to this point of the list, but for me it's a different thing.
(Disclaimer: I'm an Android/webos guy)
Apple adds
- A serious review of all submitted apps (Like it not..)
- A support procedure for problems with the app store (which I cannot judge, being on the other side)
- Market penetration in lots of/most countries.
What's the equivalent of the android market place? If there's none, why pay the same and compare those things as equals? It seems on the one side there's an army of people working on quality and support (with varying results), while on the other side there's a large void and the "See, this is the marketplace, submit stuff. I'm off" attitude.
The former seems to be far more expensive to me. If that's sustainable with ~30% of the sales, why - again - does the approach that seems less involved need the same?
He may be referring to more payment options - like PayPal. I get emails all the time from people asking if they can pay with PayPal.
EDIT: And until you've sold apps in the Android Market, you don't know the pain that is the infamous RED "Payment Declined" message in Google Checkout.
[+] [-] endlessvoid94|15 years ago|reply
Could android do things better? Sure. But to act as if Google has a responsibility to the developers is a little bit far fetched, IMHO.
[+] [-] meterplech|15 years ago|reply
Just recently there was a blog post about a developer complaining about how hard it was to make apps on the new Blackberry tablet.
So, in my mind, no Google doesn't really have a responsibility to make developers happy. But, yes they have good business reasons to: more and more people flock to the OS's with the best apps. As for whether or not these exact demands are fair or not I can't comment because I don't develop for Android, but I can definitively say Google should take heed and make sure they can continue to be seen as a developer-friendly OS.
Edit: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2263882 <- the HN link to the aforementioned blog post.
[+] [-] lwhi|15 years ago|reply
Are there any other marketplaces which already grant what's being asked for?
[+] [-] nigelsampson|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goof|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dantheman|15 years ago|reply
The sense of entitlement is astounding. They don't force you to use the market, give you tools and everything for free. It's unbelievable. Yes, the markets not perfect, but imho stuff like this is worse and just creates meaningless controversy and wastes everyones time.
[+] [-] lwhi|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] azernik|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GeneralMaximus|15 years ago|reply
I know a couple of folks -- long time Mac users and developers who did not want to develop for iOS on moral grounds -- who built some breathtakingly beautiful apps for Android. Simple apps. Prototypes, meant to test the Androidian waters. Beautiful nonetheless. They are currently thinking of moving to iOS because Indian developers can't sell apps on the Market.
I also know people who make spacecargoloads of money selling iOS apps from India. An organization I visited last week wants to build a few iOS applications. They already have a developer license. They considered Android ... for about 30 seconds. They quickly scraped all their Android plans the moment I told them they couldn't sell applications from India.
I see that as a loss for Google.
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] arnorhs|15 years ago|reply
I would love to spend money on android apps.
But, I live in Iceland. Welcome to 2011.
[+] [-] ryanisinallofus|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oemera|15 years ago|reply
If you don't like this post please say WHY you don't like it and give some feedback HOW it would be better.
And now some Feedback to this website. I think it's fair to mention that Developers have to pay 30% of their earnings and getting nearly nothing for it. I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway. They should lower the rate or give some more support to developers.
I really welcome criticism to any platform cause you can grow with it BUT without it you don't know what you are doing wrong, right?
To be honest I'm mostly an iOS developer but I developed already a Android App and successfully put into the Android Market for free.
[+] [-] jsnell|15 years ago|reply
They avoid having to pay credit card processing fees, which on a cheap app probably eat most of the 30%. They don't have to write their own payment handling code. They don't have to write and host their own download servers. They don't need to worry about things like re-authenticating downloads for users upgrading to a new device. They get their apps listed on the Market and thus have their app be discoverable in the place where most Android users will look for apps. They get access to the other Market infrastructure like in-app purchases and the licensing server.
You think that's not providing any value? Then it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that you switch to the alternative that you think provides better value. After all, Android does allow for alternative app stores and for side loading of apps.
> I mean I'm thanking Google that they are hosting the Android Market but taking 30% for just hosting something isn't fair anyway.
That's a strange definition of "fair" you have there.
[+] [-] colinplamondon|15 years ago|reply
Anyone who takes the time to put together a list of hard-hitting business requests like 'algorithmic transparency' is going to ever, ever, ever have a hit consumer application. The linked list isn't about making more money, it's about ideological purity.
[+] [-] chrisrhoden|15 years ago|reply
More importantly, one of the grievances is that Google doesn't look at support requests. Like, at all.
[+] [-] lwhi|15 years ago|reply
In any case, some of the requests relate directly to customer (developer) support - positive gains here should definitely affect profitability.
[+] [-] comex|15 years ago|reply
> We demand that Google strictly codify the rules of the Market, and that any removals must be accompanied with a complete explanation and reference to the specific rules violated, and with a formal method for appeal.
Hmm, where have I heard this before?
[+] [-] makeramen|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] db42|15 years ago|reply
To other more open, like .... iOS, Windows mobile?? And, please don't say Symbian and Maemo..
[+] [-] GeneralMaximus|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdp23|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsz0|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanisinallofus|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uptown|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] metageek|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forgottenpaswrd|15 years ago|reply
The site frames the google-developers as a conflict between enemies, like unions usually do. Neither Apple or Google are getting unreasonable profits from their 30%share as they reinvest more than 90% of this money in infrastructure, as Apple had clarified a lot of times.
If you make a great app, your users win,you win, and Google wins too. I bet they are too much wins for the site creator prejudices and believes. He has the mentality that for someone to win someone has to lose, the "survival" or "fight" mentality.
If you sell a software application over traditional channels like retail expect getting less than 10%, as every intermediary layer doubles the price, e.g that was what the game "Commandos behind the enemy lines" got when Pyro studios gave us a talk. Steam, Amazon, Apple, O'Reilly or Google are very good opportunities for direct sales today.
I'm not going to talk about the entitlement tone because other people had done already, but the "demands" I see are not the main problems Android has today, for example I don't see "Adding support for more countries in the world, like Apple does". He is focused on getting more share of the cake instead of making a bigger one, IMHO this is a bad strategy.
[+] [-] extension|15 years ago|reply
All this site has to say is that the new curated app platforms are creating a huge power imbalance, and the way to even the field is to unionize. All the ideology just muddies the water and leads to endless bickering.
[+] [-] kefs|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] irfn|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lwhi|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dpcan|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abraham|15 years ago|reply
So either lower the price or add multi week review process followed by arbitrary denials?
[+] [-] vacri|15 years ago|reply
If you think otherwise, well, there's a market full of screaming developers with little business experience, and this is the 'home of startups' - there's a startup idea to capitalise on.
---- I don't like Apple's business practises and never have, but this 70/30 split furore is hilarious to someone who has worked in retail and supply before. It is entirely normal for a retailer (apple) to take this kind of split in the retail price and the supplier/wholesaler to take 70%. In the retail industry I worked in, the retailer took a 35-40% portion.
This split is yawningly normal in retail. What's not normal is the huge numbers of "one-person" wholesalers... who have very little in the way of business experience and see that split as a "tax" rather than payment for a service.
[+] [-] natnat|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] darklajid|15 years ago|reply
(Disclaimer: I'm an Android/webos guy)
Apple adds
- A serious review of all submitted apps (Like it not..)
- A support procedure for problems with the app store (which I cannot judge, being on the other side)
- Market penetration in lots of/most countries.
What's the equivalent of the android market place? If there's none, why pay the same and compare those things as equals? It seems on the one side there's an army of people working on quality and support (with varying results), while on the other side there's a large void and the "See, this is the marketplace, submit stuff. I'm off" attitude.
The former seems to be far more expensive to me. If that's sustainable with ~30% of the sales, why - again - does the approach that seems less involved need the same?
[+] [-] lwhi|15 years ago|reply
Apple (and Google) provide a space to sell Apps. They operate more like a department store which rents space to individual concessions.
I don't think a department store would necessarily take 30% of all sales made within it.
[+] [-] hunterp|15 years ago|reply
When the official Android market went live, you can now buy apps over the browser, then even download to your phone...so this is a bit out of date.
[+] [-] dpcan|15 years ago|reply
EDIT: And until you've sold apps in the Android Market, you don't know the pain that is the infamous RED "Payment Declined" message in Google Checkout.