I'm lucky enough to have remote work. And I'm sure many HNers have a nice buffer of savings from their tech jobs to weather the storm or are getting paid time off.
But can anyone share what it's like to not be in either of these situations? How are your rent lords handling things?
I live abroad in a cheap country so I can handle zero income, but I wouldn't be able to last long if rent was $2000+/mo instead of the <$200/mo I currently pay.
Yet when I read Redditors talk about quarantine, you'd think everyone in the world was getting paid time off to play Animal Crossing at home or they live at mom's house rent-free. And it seems like it's this crowd that's likely to be pushing for staying in lockdown with no end in sight.
My friend who works at the airport in the Galapagos (GPS) was telling me that no one has gotten paid since the tourism stopped. Luckily she can work on farm, but many can't. The local animal shelter there is now out of food, and the dogs will starve if they don't somehow raise money in the next 3 days or so (@patitasgalapaguenas on instagram, you can donate here [0]).
The US is struggling in many ways, but I can't help but think many other less fortunate nations are struggling even more. But the US doesn't show international news so you wouldn't really know unless you go looking for it.
It's a class divide, unfortunately. The people who are getting hit hardest are the people who were already getting hit hardest. Most of those don't frequent the same internet forums we do.
I have two commercial leases. Neither landlord is offering a break. Construction is stopped due to government mandate. There is no bailout from the state due to this intervention. There is a high liklihood of mass layoffs and potential bankruptcy.
I'm past the point of annoyance or despair. I've gotten used to the fact that not only do governments do whatever they want, but people like authoritarian action and don't care about externalities.
It's scary. I was laid-off this month due to COVID-19. Luckily, I am getting paid for one more month because of the WARN Act. I've been looking, but it has been difficult since I'm competing with all the more senior co-workers and peers who were also laid-off.
So how is my budget?
* I know that there will be a time gap between being able to apply for unemployment and receiving it. The unemployment systems in the US are still overwhelmed.
* Since my wife is on my health insurance plan, COBRA is going to be very expensive.
* We moved recently for my job, so a lot of the savings we had are already gone.
We have some runway, but no where near enough to feel safe. We are one of those edge cases where we took a risk, it paid off and life was great, but it didn't last long enough for us save up again so things are looking grim. So finally...
> Yet when I read Redditors talk about quarantine, you'd think everyone in the world was getting paid time off to play Animal Crossing at home or they live at mom's house rent-free. And it seems like it's this crowd that's likely to be pushing for staying in lockdown with no end in sight.
We both still are 100% for maintaining the quarantine. No we are not living some relaxing lifestyle at home. I've been quite stressed out. However, I also know that I would never forgive myself if I contributed to breaking quarantine early and that caused a chain reaction of hospitals to be overrun again and leading to my parents, a relative, or an old friend to die because they could not get the proper treatment.
There is a lot I want to rant about, but rather than that, I would like to leave these thoughts:
Stop thinking of the solution as being so black and white. Lifting the quarantine isn't the only way to help everyone who has been impacted. For example, why not have the same government bodies that enacted the quarantine do something just as drastic to save those who were impacted? What other solutions are out there?
Also, if lifting the quarantine leads to more deaths, then remember that there is an economic impact there too. Have you ever paid for a funeral? I have and at a young age too. It burned a hole in my savings. That set me back several years in saving and investing in myself. Imagine doing the same to the generation of young adults whose parents are in the risk factor group. Far too many of the comments I read, even on HN, are seeing things only through the lens of what politicians say. Outside of compiling raw statistics, I've seen very little independent thought on how to solve the current problems in society.
Thank you for putting into words precisely how I'm feeling about this situation. The goal was to flatten the curve, not protect every single person from getting exposed which is impossible and seems to be what those who are not suffering economic hardship from this (yet) are now asking for.
In the US, the third category is being furloughed and collecting unemployment. Here in Maryland, anyone making $55,000 or below collects as much in unemployment (with the $600/week federal supplement) than they did while employed. The IT systems have done a bad job handling some new categories of claimants (people who couldn’t collect unemployment before but were allowed to under the CARES Act). So some people are waiting for checks. But others are relatively unaffected: when the stay at home orders end, they expect to get called back to their jobs.
I was laid off last year from a non-tech job and at the time, had savings and unemployment to not worry about paying $1800 for rent plus reduced additional expenses for a respectable while (without losing everything) but it's a very different story now.
Since COVID, my landlord said he could let me defer payments for a few months, but honestly that’s not helpful at all since I’ll have to pay in full eventually.
I previously felt relatively comfortable with my opportunities to find new employment in marketing or a career switch to product management. But now, cash is low and what few jobs are available are flooded with applications and high competition from all the layoffs. I can't even get a food delivery gig because they have so many applications.
It could be worse, but my wallet and savings are taking a serious beating and probably will for quite a while.
So if anyone has ANY marketing or PM needs or questions......... Say hi, email in bio! Happy to connect at the very least.
> Yet when I read Redditors talk about quarantine, you'd think everyone in the world was getting paid time off to play Animal Crossing at home or they live at mom's house rent-free
Wouldn't this be a self-selecting population? or is everyone whether rich or poor, good circumstances or bad online?
Yea I am wondering the same thing. I am REALLY lucky to have saved a lot and be in a good living situation where I can quarantine comfortably. But what the hell are people doing who were paycheck to paycheck? I would not blame them if they had to start stealing from supermarkets
We keep in touch with our old nanny from a couple years back who became close with our family — just spoke to her and while they’re doing alright for now, it’s an uncertain and scary time for them. Same for friends and family in service and manufacturing. Some have lost jobs and are in limbo. Older relatives are relying on a network of friends to figure out groceries in areas without delivery.
We’ve continued paying our housekeepers and Montessori throughout all of this; it sounds like most of our community has been doing the same, based on emails from management, and chatter on Nextdoor. But this will vary widely depending on the particular community. Just like when a storm hits, the communities which are already less fortunate will typically get hit the hardest.
And then of course, the local businesses. When the tide recedes, I really don’t know how many of our favorite shops and cafes will still be there. Those folks are sitting on edge right now.
The social media feeds are going to be self-selecting for bored, single, young people. Anyone taking care of young kids at home are too busy looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger in “Kindergarten Cop” to be posting very much right now.
There's another political solution that would maintain the lockdown while preventing thousands of people from dying by reopening the economy: cancel rent. In NJ, they canceled mortgages but not rent, so the landlords get a free ride. In theory rents are "frozen" but they'll become due in September with back rent owed.
I am in Germany and am lucky working remote for my local company.
I talked to my neighbor on Sunday. She is a cleaner working for a subcontractor cleaning schools. She wasn't able to work for 9 weeks (first there were holidays, then Corona stay at home rules). She isn't being paid and her boss does not go through the official process of getting government subsidiaries for her. She is just being left hanging.
Yeah her boss is an ale. It would cost a little bit of time and get all his employees 60% of their net income. He just isn't doing it.
Her sons earn okayish - so they help her out. And we do neighborly community help. Non the less. People left and right are being left behind. Even with government interventions in place.
Alameda county flat out does not allow evictions for non payment of rent for covid-19 related reasons. The landlords can get back rent on a 12 month payment plan, and they can pursue small claims court if this is not paid.
The problem is that the shelter-in-place rule is already limited in effectiveness due to a very lengthy list of exceptions plus many people not observing the spirit of the rule. Compliance will only drop over time as people see that 1) Their actions are having no obvious impact and 2) There is no clear end in sight.
If the primary goal of extending the order is to give local governments time to build out infrastructure, that's fine (though they would do well to communicate this progress to the public). But if the primary goal is to further reduce transmission, I can't see it being successful.
San Francisco has only had 18 COVID-19 deaths in the last 30 days, and only 2 in the last week. [0] That seems amazingly low to me.
I'm leaning towards thinking non-essential businesses should be opened up there, provided they function under the same restrictions as grocery stores etc.
I hate how the idea of reopening has split down political party lines. This is definitely not the time for partisanship. Now that Republicans have come out as pro-reopening, San Francisco will be the last city to reopen in the country. 0 COVID-19 infections will be too many.
If many people get very sick simultaneously, they would not only overwhelm hospitals, they would also inflict a disorderly, involuntary shutdown of large swaths of the economy, driven by fear -- instead of the orderly, voluntary shutdown we have at present, driven by government mandate.
I'm surprised we're not seeing plans for some businesses to reopen with restrictions. I think it will be a while before we allow haircuts and manicures again, but I see no reason why we can't increase the types of businesses allowed open. Limiting occupancy, requiring PPE, and enforcing social distancing appear to be reasonable requirements. I hope the politicians and government workers are busy trying to find a middle-ground and not just playing it safe to cover their asses.
The thing I'm confused by is why a costco is open that has like 1000 people per day and a flower shop that has 20 customers per day isn't open. Is the flower shop dangerous? Is it less essential on the yearly timeframe? This lockdown isn't measured in days right now, it's measured in months. What's "essential" in days is not what's "essential" in months.
From what the SF and CA governments have been saying, that's definitely next. Part of the goal of having mask orders now is to get people used to it. But until our test-and-trace capacity exceeds the rate of new infections, putting more people on the streets is only digging the hole deeper.
Switzerland actually started reopening with haircuts and manicures.
Certainly pressure from groups representing hairdressers was a big part of it, but the justification they use is that contact tracing can be done reliably in such a situation.
Keep in mind that they also want to reopen schools, citing dubious claims about children not contributing much to the spread, staying silent about the likely true motivation (sending the parents back to work).
The local public health departments need time to get testing and tracing working. It is the only way to open up safely. We are way behind the Asian countries that learned the lessons of SARS.
why haircuts and manicures? Its a low population setting (1:1). If there is proper hand washing between clients, each new client gets a squirt of sanitizer, and both clients and stylists wear a mask? Require every haircut to start with a shampoo for mechanical disinfection.
People forget that there is no law which can put everyone under house arrest. This is all done voluntarily.
Why is it ok for people to shop at Walmart and not at their local small business that sells the same goods and is better equipped to enforce social distancing, with customers explicitly opting in to visit the smaller store?
If a small business can protect workers and customers, and a comparable large business is already open, the small business can consider opening and preparing to litigate all the way to the Supreme Court. With video cameras ready.
There may be a few hundred bored lawyers who remember the US constitution and would take their case pro bono. The federal government recently said it is willing to join lawsuits against states, on constitutional grounds.
Obviously, the business in question should be carefully chosen to maximize health, legal and business outcomes. But with many businesses shutdown, there's a large pool of candidates to be triaged.
Almost none of what you said is true. This is not voluntary, there are laws which give these powers, essential businesses can stay open regardless of their size, recording breaking the law while conducting non essential business won’t help you in the supreme court, the federal government is saying lots and doing very little.
I'm not aware of any lockdowns which are specifically targeted at small retailers while competing large retailers are allowed to be open. Where I am the small coffee shops are closed for walk-in business, but so are the Starbucks; the difference is that small coffee shops are not able to pivot to a centralized delivery platform en masse the way Starbucks is.
> Why is it ok for people to shop at Walmart and not at their local small business that sells the same goods and is better equipped to enforce social distancing, with customers explicitly opting in to visit the smaller store?
Small local businesses in the Bay Area that sell similar items to Walmart are open right now, from hardware stores to produce markets. I imagine apparel stores are shut, though many around me are doing online and appointment apparel shopping.
If Walmart is the only store open where you are, it's likely the only store that exists selling essentials where you are, and that is a different problem.
If nothing else, at least we'll come out of this pandemic with some clear Supreme Court decisions to clarify what emergency powers state and local governments actually have. One nuance that people seem to miss is that timing matters. So a very short restriction on Constitutional rights may be acceptable, but the court places increasing scrutiny on those restrictions the longer they remain in place.
State and local governments have far greater abilities to issue orders like this than the federal government. What, exactly, is unconstitutional about a city issuing an order that revokes the ability of a business to operate due to a health emergency?
Uh, there are plenty of laws to keep people in their houses. In my state, anyone outside w/o an excuse can be charged with disorderly persons offense at the very least.
We are down 50% from the peak of Covid deaths in California. It seems likely we will have one or more days of zero Covid deaths before the end of May. That is the measure I assume they are going for at this point.
If I am reading the data correctly, considering total number of cases, and current rates of growth, the Bay Area is doing really well compared to the rest of the USA in terms of preventing the spread. [1] There will inevitably be areas that will recover sooner than others, and I could see the Bay Area being one of those places. How is the Bay Area going to handle that? Are these places going to station cops on county lines and screen people wanting to come into a "recovered" region?
There's a good quote cited often on Strong Towns: "problems have solutions, predicaments have outcomes".
We're in a predicament. We blew weeks, maybe months ignoring the problem at the federal level, so now we don't have the PPE or testing and tracing infrastructure we could have had at this point that would allow some cautious, yet safe reopening in places. The stay home orders work, but they're devastating to the economy. Reopening in an unsafe way would be devastating to both the economy and public health: smart people are going to stay home anyway because they don't want to get sick and die.
There are no 'good' options at this point. Something like this plan seems like the best bet, but we need to get supplies and infrastructure on line as quickly as possible, and understand that the federal government isn't likely to be of much help.
This is bizarre... There is a statewide stay-at-home order in effect until further notice. Any less-restrictive orders, such as San Francisco's, are null and void.
[+] [-] hombre_fatal|6 years ago|reply
But can anyone share what it's like to not be in either of these situations? How are your rent lords handling things?
I live abroad in a cheap country so I can handle zero income, but I wouldn't be able to last long if rent was $2000+/mo instead of the <$200/mo I currently pay.
Yet when I read Redditors talk about quarantine, you'd think everyone in the world was getting paid time off to play Animal Crossing at home or they live at mom's house rent-free. And it seems like it's this crowd that's likely to be pushing for staying in lockdown with no end in sight.
[+] [-] lowpro|6 years ago|reply
The US is struggling in many ways, but I can't help but think many other less fortunate nations are struggling even more. But the US doesn't show international news so you wouldn't really know unless you go looking for it.
[0]: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_donations&busines...
[+] [-] blast|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icelancer|6 years ago|reply
I'm past the point of annoyance or despair. I've gotten used to the fact that not only do governments do whatever they want, but people like authoritarian action and don't care about externalities.
[+] [-] hysan|6 years ago|reply
So how is my budget?
* I know that there will be a time gap between being able to apply for unemployment and receiving it. The unemployment systems in the US are still overwhelmed.
* Since my wife is on my health insurance plan, COBRA is going to be very expensive.
* We moved recently for my job, so a lot of the savings we had are already gone.
We have some runway, but no where near enough to feel safe. We are one of those edge cases where we took a risk, it paid off and life was great, but it didn't last long enough for us save up again so things are looking grim. So finally...
> Yet when I read Redditors talk about quarantine, you'd think everyone in the world was getting paid time off to play Animal Crossing at home or they live at mom's house rent-free. And it seems like it's this crowd that's likely to be pushing for staying in lockdown with no end in sight.
We both still are 100% for maintaining the quarantine. No we are not living some relaxing lifestyle at home. I've been quite stressed out. However, I also know that I would never forgive myself if I contributed to breaking quarantine early and that caused a chain reaction of hospitals to be overrun again and leading to my parents, a relative, or an old friend to die because they could not get the proper treatment.
There is a lot I want to rant about, but rather than that, I would like to leave these thoughts:
Stop thinking of the solution as being so black and white. Lifting the quarantine isn't the only way to help everyone who has been impacted. For example, why not have the same government bodies that enacted the quarantine do something just as drastic to save those who were impacted? What other solutions are out there?
Also, if lifting the quarantine leads to more deaths, then remember that there is an economic impact there too. Have you ever paid for a funeral? I have and at a young age too. It burned a hole in my savings. That set me back several years in saving and investing in myself. Imagine doing the same to the generation of young adults whose parents are in the risk factor group. Far too many of the comments I read, even on HN, are seeing things only through the lens of what politicians say. Outside of compiling raw statistics, I've seen very little independent thought on how to solve the current problems in society.
[+] [-] thordenmark|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rayiner|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bryanmgreen|6 years ago|reply
I was laid off last year from a non-tech job and at the time, had savings and unemployment to not worry about paying $1800 for rent plus reduced additional expenses for a respectable while (without losing everything) but it's a very different story now.
Since COVID, my landlord said he could let me defer payments for a few months, but honestly that’s not helpful at all since I’ll have to pay in full eventually.
I previously felt relatively comfortable with my opportunities to find new employment in marketing or a career switch to product management. But now, cash is low and what few jobs are available are flooded with applications and high competition from all the layoffs. I can't even get a food delivery gig because they have so many applications.
It could be worse, but my wallet and savings are taking a serious beating and probably will for quite a while.
So if anyone has ANY marketing or PM needs or questions......... Say hi, email in bio! Happy to connect at the very least.
[+] [-] Zarath|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m463|6 years ago|reply
Wouldn't this be a self-selecting population? or is everyone whether rich or poor, good circumstances or bad online?
[+] [-] jliptzin|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gdubs|6 years ago|reply
We’ve continued paying our housekeepers and Montessori throughout all of this; it sounds like most of our community has been doing the same, based on emails from management, and chatter on Nextdoor. But this will vary widely depending on the particular community. Just like when a storm hits, the communities which are already less fortunate will typically get hit the hardest.
And then of course, the local businesses. When the tide recedes, I really don’t know how many of our favorite shops and cafes will still be there. Those folks are sitting on edge right now.
The social media feeds are going to be self-selecting for bored, single, young people. Anyone taking care of young kids at home are too busy looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger in “Kindergarten Cop” to be posting very much right now.
[+] [-] tehjoker|6 years ago|reply
No free ride for the landlord class. Cancel rent!
[+] [-] 0x8BADF00D|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdoering|6 years ago|reply
I talked to my neighbor on Sunday. She is a cleaner working for a subcontractor cleaning schools. She wasn't able to work for 9 weeks (first there were holidays, then Corona stay at home rules). She isn't being paid and her boss does not go through the official process of getting government subsidiaries for her. She is just being left hanging.
Yeah her boss is an ale. It would cost a little bit of time and get all his employees 60% of their net income. He just isn't doing it.
Her sons earn okayish - so they help her out. And we do neighborly community help. Non the less. People left and right are being left behind. Even with government interventions in place.
[+] [-] gnopgnip|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _xnmw|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] yongjik|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] greendave|6 years ago|reply
If the primary goal of extending the order is to give local governments time to build out infrastructure, that's fine (though they would do well to communicate this progress to the public). But if the primary goal is to further reduce transmission, I can't see it being successful.
[+] [-] Uhhrrr|6 years ago|reply
I'm leaning towards thinking non-essential businesses should be opened up there, provided they function under the same restrictions as grocery stores etc.
[0] https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/blob/master/csse_...
[+] [-] fasteddie31003|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cs702|6 years ago|reply
We all want to avoid that.
[+] [-] 01100011|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jwlake|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wpietri|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tgsovlerkhgsel|6 years ago|reply
Certainly pressure from groups representing hairdressers was a big part of it, but the justification they use is that contact tracing can be done reliably in such a situation.
Keep in mind that they also want to reopen schools, citing dubious claims about children not contributing much to the spread, staying silent about the likely true motivation (sending the parents back to work).
[+] [-] cloudwizard|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abfan1127|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walterbell|6 years ago|reply
Why is it ok for people to shop at Walmart and not at their local small business that sells the same goods and is better equipped to enforce social distancing, with customers explicitly opting in to visit the smaller store?
If a small business can protect workers and customers, and a comparable large business is already open, the small business can consider opening and preparing to litigate all the way to the Supreme Court. With video cameras ready.
There may be a few hundred bored lawyers who remember the US constitution and would take their case pro bono. The federal government recently said it is willing to join lawsuits against states, on constitutional grounds.
Obviously, the business in question should be carefully chosen to maximize health, legal and business outcomes. But with many businesses shutdown, there's a large pool of candidates to be triaged.
[+] [-] Skunkleton|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bobthepanda|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danans|6 years ago|reply
Small local businesses in the Bay Area that sell similar items to Walmart are open right now, from hardware stores to produce markets. I imagine apparel stores are shut, though many around me are doing online and appointment apparel shopping.
If Walmart is the only store open where you are, it's likely the only store that exists selling essentials where you are, and that is a different problem.
[+] [-] nradov|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] the_watcher|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] op00to|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|6 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] killion|6 years ago|reply
Source: https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/cali...
[+] [-] Lramseyer|6 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.latimes.com/projects/california-coronavirus-case...
[+] [-] davidw|6 years ago|reply
We're in a predicament. We blew weeks, maybe months ignoring the problem at the federal level, so now we don't have the PPE or testing and tracing infrastructure we could have had at this point that would allow some cautious, yet safe reopening in places. The stay home orders work, but they're devastating to the economy. Reopening in an unsafe way would be devastating to both the economy and public health: smart people are going to stay home anyway because they don't want to get sick and die.
There are no 'good' options at this point. Something like this plan seems like the best bet, but we need to get supplies and infrastructure on line as quickly as possible, and understand that the federal government isn't likely to be of much help.
https://www.nga.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/NGA-Report.pd...
[+] [-] killion|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjdemers|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lipbisque|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrfusion|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] annoyingnoob|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|6 years ago|reply
Wonder what the details are? Maybe we can get some parks re-opened.
[+] [-] redis_mlc|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joyceschan|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ccktlmazeltov|6 years ago|reply
[+] [-] glofish|6 years ago|reply
Today I understand.