Pretty silly all around. The main thesis here seems to be "raising children costs money and is sometimes frustrating, and it is therefore illogical and foolish". When parents say that even though children are raised at significant emotional and financial expense, they are great and awesome, researchers write it off as "illogical" or stupid, and hold up the study as evidence of human irrationality and stupidity, with the implication that smart people wouldn't want children after seeing they cost money. I don't know whether the study really makes the conclusions the article claims, but the article at least is ridiculous in its supposition.
If you only care about money, having children is obviously not smart, as children generally cost money and don't produce it, even later in life. If you care about a fulfilling life more than a filled bank account, then raising children is one of the most important activities a person can do.
I have two kids. I've spent a lot of money to make them healthier, smarter, and happier. I want nothing in return except to see them smile and growing to be a wonderful human being.
while I don't necessarily agree with the article, it does point out (and other research has shown) that it's not just about money, it's about _happiness_. Despite what most parents will tell you the studies have shown that they are generally happier both before and after the children are in the house, and would probably be happier if they didn't have children.
You can't argue "I'm happy because I have children" because you don't know how happy you would have been without them (and with all the money and freedom they cost.) I want kids myself but it's not an easy question to answer if they actually make parents happier. It obviously makes parents _think_ they're happier but that's not the same thing.
children generally cost money and don't produce it, even later in life.
Not in all cultures. In mine, kids are expected to grow up and help parents retire and take care of them in old age. From our eyes, seeing a parent off to a retirement home is the worst thing and reflects poorly on the kids.
The economists' models of the world are notoriously flawed and dangerous precisely because they leave out non-easily-measurable results and consequences.
you sort of imply that in order to have a fulfilling life, you should have children, which is not remotely true. I agree with your point that it's utterly stupid to look at raising children from a purely financial perspective, but choosing not to have any doesn't mean you're thinking only about money.
Both are true and valid, and neither needs to be judged. I just want to point out that the decision to have kids isn't necessarily about rational happiness-maximizing choice.
>Couples who choose not to have kids also have better, more satisfying marriages than couples who have kids.
Well, of course, given that some couples have kids by accident. If you agree to wait on having kids for five years, then -- whoops! -- pregnancy, that would have a bad effect on satisfaction. Also there's the fact that couples who choose not to have kids have thought about and discussed their opinions on children. Couples who do that are likely to communicate better -- another reason they'd be more satisfied. I looked at the cited study, but could only read the first page. I didn't see anything saying they did anything to address this. Of course, I didn't see anything saying they didn't.
Additionally he doesn't apply the same rationale here. Maybe couples w/o kids report more satisfying marriages, because they need to rationalize it more since they didn't have kids.
May be its a cultural thing. I know a few couples in India with no kids and more they age, more their life self-admittedly sucks.
Then again, the culture I grew up in sees kids as an investment. The investment pays off when kids grow up and help their parents retire and support them financially and otherwise.
As countries develop and increase their social services, having kids becomes less of an advantage / asset and more of a liability. Also, in more mobile countries where people move around more for work (like the US) it's less likely that a child will still be in the same city as their parent by the time the parents are elderly.
"Yes, I am very satisfied with my decision to become a parent. My children add a lot of stresses to my life, but the deep satisfaction of seeing them grow and mature, laugh and play and cry, is more than worth it."
"No, you're not, actually. I have scientific studies showing that you are actually very unhappy and unsatisfied."
"..."
Don't we each, as individuals, get to decide whether we are happy, joyful, satisfied with our lives? Is not the right to define what happiness means to us inherent in our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?
Kids aren't for everyone. For that matter, neither are marriage, startups or traveling. The only difference with kids is there is no "undo" and you can't quit. If you don't want to live a selfless lifestyle, don't have kids.
My son just turned 18 months and my wife and I couldn't be happier. We won't be able to buy the new iPad but my son is far more entertaining. And I feel like my wife and I have grown closer since having him. So, to each their own. It's laziness to pretend life is as black-and-white at the writer presents.
My baby boy was born 3 weeks ago and the moment I first saw him was truly the happiest one I've ever experienced. I would waste letters trying to describe it but let me tell you: I could own 3 Googles and 2 Apples and I still wouldn't be as happy as I was in that moment. No amount of comfort can buy such happiness.
Having a kid means experiencing both emotional highs and lows but the former certainly outweigh the latter. If you could -- and you can't -- compare this to business, then not having kids would be like spending the rest of your days in a secure, well-paid, boring, lifeless, 9-to-5 job.
Interesting piece, but overall, I want to see hard data about family make up. Ideally you would have surveys and learn more about the couple's state of minds before, during (pregnancy stage) and after having a kid.
Just from my observation, I don't have facts, just opinion, but couples who wanted to have kids will be the first to tell you they love it. Couples that had kids by accident are either not happy, happy, or indifferent. The last category are couples where one of the two wanted kids and the other didn't so overall, there was dissatisfaction.
To me it seems to be all about expectation and reality.
There's ownership bias at work, as well. Regardless of the value of something, if you feel that it's the result of your "work", you feel more positive about its value than if it's just "given" to you.
Buy something from Ikea and put it together, and you'll feel better about it than if you bought it already put together for the same price. It's totally irrational, but it's also true.
no, it's not. facebook, love it or hate it, has contributed more value to the world than the average well raised child. then again, some might say it's easier to raise a child well than to start another facebook :P
One of the interesting dilemas with the whole idea of "invest in future care instead of kids" is the question of whom you'll be purchasing that care from? And at what price?
If society collectively gets more 'rational' (as per the author's'view of rational) then the cost of end of life care, due to a massive supply drop off since fewer people having had workers/babies, would quickly eclipse even the most ausiduous of saver's life savings.
And who's'the only one that would take care of you at a price below the running market price for the service you need? One of your offspring?
When stuck in the myopic world of dollars and cents caution is advised, lest you end up in a world. Where you are only seen yourself in terms of dollars and cents
On at least two occasion I was speaking with people relatively old, one who was close to dying, and one thing they said they were sad about was not having kids.
How you feel or how happy you are in the moment is unrelated on what your future self will think is important.
I suspect that one could show, by the same methodology, that each of the following is foolish: buying a house; going to graduate school; starting a business; mastering something difficult; volunteering; being active in the community; ...
In a nutshell, she looked after this autistic child who was abandoned by his parents at 3 and is now 13, and was quoted as saying "I don't expect him to take care of me in the future. I just hope he can take care of himself"
What the Eibach and Mock studies show is that if someone criticizes something you have a lot invested in, like having kids, you will get defensive and exaggerate the upsides. That doesn't say anything about whether having kids is foolish - maybe the upsides really DO outweigh the downsides.
From an evolutionary-biology perspective, the author is simply competing. If he convinces you not to procreate, his children will have less competition to worry about. He's probably not even self-aware to the point where he realizes what he's doing. Lame.
Stopped reading because I promised myself I would never let Time and other "mass circulation" magazines teach me new scientific arguments or concepts now that superior resources are so convenient.
[+] [-] cookiecaper|15 years ago|reply
If you only care about money, having children is obviously not smart, as children generally cost money and don't produce it, even later in life. If you care about a fulfilling life more than a filled bank account, then raising children is one of the most important activities a person can do.
[+] [-] kokon|15 years ago|reply
I have two kids. I've spent a lot of money to make them healthier, smarter, and happier. I want nothing in return except to see them smile and growing to be a wonderful human being.
Believe it or not, I'm happy.
[+] [-] tomkarlo|15 years ago|reply
You can't argue "I'm happy because I have children" because you don't know how happy you would have been without them (and with all the money and freedom they cost.) I want kids myself but it's not an easy question to answer if they actually make parents happier. It obviously makes parents _think_ they're happier but that's not the same thing.
[+] [-] zaidf|15 years ago|reply
Not in all cultures. In mine, kids are expected to grow up and help parents retire and take care of them in old age. From our eyes, seeing a parent off to a retirement home is the worst thing and reflects poorly on the kids.
[+] [-] alxp|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brosephius|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] piguy314|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ekanes|15 years ago|reply
On the other hand I've never had so many feelings of deep satisfaction as with my kids. It all depends on how you define happiness.
Happiness = easier life, more money, more sleep.
... or you could say
Happiness = building, nurturing, giving, sacrifice.
Both are true and valid, and neither needs to be judged. I just want to point out that the decision to have kids isn't necessarily about rational happiness-maximizing choice.
#3 is due in April, wish me luck!
[+] [-] zck|15 years ago|reply
Well, of course, given that some couples have kids by accident. If you agree to wait on having kids for five years, then -- whoops! -- pregnancy, that would have a bad effect on satisfaction. Also there's the fact that couples who choose not to have kids have thought about and discussed their opinions on children. Couples who do that are likely to communicate better -- another reason they'd be more satisfied. I looked at the cited study, but could only read the first page. I didn't see anything saying they did anything to address this. Of course, I didn't see anything saying they didn't.
[+] [-] kenjackson|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zaidf|15 years ago|reply
Then again, the culture I grew up in sees kids as an investment. The investment pays off when kids grow up and help their parents retire and support them financially and otherwise.
[+] [-] ryandvm|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomkarlo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimbokun|15 years ago|reply
"Yes, I am very satisfied with my decision to become a parent. My children add a lot of stresses to my life, but the deep satisfaction of seeing them grow and mature, laugh and play and cry, is more than worth it."
"No, you're not, actually. I have scientific studies showing that you are actually very unhappy and unsatisfied."
"..."
Don't we each, as individuals, get to decide whether we are happy, joyful, satisfied with our lives? Is not the right to define what happiness means to us inherent in our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?
[+] [-] juiceandjuice|15 years ago|reply
http://en.gravatar.com/thejohncloud
He should have just said "Don't have kids because you can't take them into a martini bar"
[+] [-] jat850|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lotides|15 years ago|reply
My son just turned 18 months and my wife and I couldn't be happier. We won't be able to buy the new iPad but my son is far more entertaining. And I feel like my wife and I have grown closer since having him. So, to each their own. It's laziness to pretend life is as black-and-white at the writer presents.
[+] [-] petervandijck|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ngvrnd|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rodp|15 years ago|reply
Having a kid means experiencing both emotional highs and lows but the former certainly outweigh the latter. If you could -- and you can't -- compare this to business, then not having kids would be like spending the rest of your days in a secure, well-paid, boring, lifeless, 9-to-5 job.
[+] [-] damoncali|15 years ago|reply
Thank you, captain obvious.
PS having kids is challenging, expensive and fantastic. Sort of like a startup, but not really.
[+] [-] radioactive21|15 years ago|reply
Just from my observation, I don't have facts, just opinion, but couples who wanted to have kids will be the first to tell you they love it. Couples that had kids by accident are either not happy, happy, or indifferent. The last category are couples where one of the two wanted kids and the other didn't so overall, there was dissatisfaction.
To me it seems to be all about expectation and reality.
[+] [-] tomkarlo|15 years ago|reply
Buy something from Ikea and put it together, and you'll feel better about it than if you bought it already put together for the same price. It's totally irrational, but it's also true.
[+] [-] drdaeman|15 years ago|reply
Not exactly what you wanted, but there was a research on relation between depression and parenthood:
- ASA press release: http://www.asanet.org/press/20051221.cfm
- Article: http://hsb.sagepub.com/content/46/4/341.short (PDF: http://www.sociology.fsu.edu/people/simon/simon_clarifying.p...)
[+] [-] va_coder|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brosephius|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VaedaStrike|15 years ago|reply
If society collectively gets more 'rational' (as per the author's'view of rational) then the cost of end of life care, due to a massive supply drop off since fewer people having had workers/babies, would quickly eclipse even the most ausiduous of saver's life savings.
And who's'the only one that would take care of you at a price below the running market price for the service you need? One of your offspring?
When stuck in the myopic world of dollars and cents caution is advised, lest you end up in a world. Where you are only seen yourself in terms of dollars and cents
[+] [-] igrekel|15 years ago|reply
How you feel or how happy you are in the moment is unrelated on what your future self will think is important.
[+] [-] impendia|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kschua|15 years ago|reply
In a nutshell, she looked after this autistic child who was abandoned by his parents at 3 and is now 13, and was quoted as saying "I don't expect him to take care of me in the future. I just hope he can take care of himself"
[+] [-] AndrewDucker|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frooxie|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maratd|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prodigal_erik|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hollerith|15 years ago|reply