This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant.
Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type (e.g., former students moving from OPT to H1B). What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore?
Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing and shut down most offices that process F1 (student) visas. The US just doesn't want high-skilled immigrants anymore.
Some, but not all, H1B immigrants are highly skilled. Some are fodder for body shops, some are used to avoid having to pay market rate. This behavior has been documented in great detail.
I do not believe it unreasonable to take measures to encourage hiring of citizens over importing workers when official unemployment is near 15%, and unofficially, closer to 20%. Your typical tech company is likely to be sophisticated enough to onboard skilled workers outside the US and support them working remotely, in which case, they are not impacted by this policy.
> Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing
This one is personal for me. I have a good friend who had been in the US for like a decade, and finally his green card application was going through before the pandemic hit. What’s going to happen to him? Are you going to leave him visa-less during a pandemic, and kick him out of the country on whatever few flights are available? Is his company supposed to magically rebound when they’ve just lost a key worker with tons of experience?
Throughout the campaign cycle this president motivated his supporters by talking about illegal immigration. Yet at every opportunity, they instead reduce legal immigration.
"The US just doesn't want high-skilled immigrants anymore."
This sucks, and it breaks a lot of Americans hearts. My grandparents were the first natural-born Americans of our family and we were raised to understand what that meant. It's of little consequence right now & on any personal level, but America is not a ubiquitous place and the pendulum swings forever.
They shut down many other parts of the government as well, this isn't all targeted at Foreigners. My passport application was sent to them on March 10th, and they have no idea when it will actually be processed. I hope its before Oct, when I have my trip, then again, if things aren't better, I will probably cancel anyways.
> This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more.
H1B is a non-immigrant visa.
> Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type.
Immigrants already admitted to the US can not get and would not benefit from a non-immigrant visa.
Non-immigrants in the US might seek a different non-immigrant visa, but preventing them from getting one is not an immigration cut. It does not reduce the number of immigrant visas issued.
> What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore?
Yes, non-immigrants are supposed to leave when their eligibility for their non-immigrants visa status expires. That's what a non-immigrant visa means. (Even dual-intent non-immigrant visas: those just do not prohibit you from entering with the intent of seeking an immigrant visa while in non-immigrants status, but doing so displaced another prospective immigrant, so cutting the number of people in a position to do it has zero effect on immigration.)
> Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing
Well, yes, that's an actual immigration cut. No need for a back door.
>This is a backdoor immigration cut, nothing more. COVID is irrelevant.
I think COVID is very relevant. But you are also correct that this action is in line with the present administration's immigration policies outside of COVID.
In the big picture on the global scale, we're looking at a back-peddling on globalization (which includes immigration and free trade). The echos of the Great Depression should be (but aren't) on the minds of policymakers and the public because this same isolationist and protectionist philosophy exacerbated the pain of the depression.
There are over 200k Indians who are stuck on h1b for more than 10 years. Most of which have us born kids. Makes no sense to have a 60 day freeze on h1bs
From Wikipedia:
Immigration is the international movement of people to a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle as permanent residents or naturalized citizens.
Because honestly, there really isn't any at all. If all work visas are supposed to not have a pathway to citizenship. Then how is someone supposed to make it in ?
The diversity PR ? Which is almost explicitly an Anti-big country immigration visa, which even then, only has a 0.5% success rate ? (It is kind of hilarious that the visa thinks EU countries add more diversity to the US than those from other nations)
Or the investor PR ? ie. bribe your way into a GC.
Or be religious minister ? Because for some reason priests are a more productive part of society than people with PhDs.
Or should they be refugees. Which is also GC that has fallen out of favor among US politicians.
You say the H1B is a backdoor. But look at the other categories. People in the arts and general administration abuse the Eb1 GC. On the other hand it is almost impossible to get the EB1 GB without a willing employer (usually needs to be in research) and a top tier PhD.
Also, it is not just Indians. How do you think Europeans have historically immigrated to the US. Come over on an employment visa and then get a GC. Just because the ethnicity of the applicants has changed, doesn't mean that the system wasn't always in place. It is referred to as dual-intent for a reason.
I understand if the US wants to suddenly stop being a country that wants immigrants. But, they continue to sell the American dream, their inclusivity and proudly claim the the creations of 1st and 2nd gen immigrants as their own. That, makes them seem really hypocritical.
Of course, doing so will do very little to nothing for American workers. Companies who want the top talent will go where the top talent lives, and this may just speed up the process (one example could be a simple adjustment to hire more folks in Vancouver, for example). Somehow, some people in the US forget that yesterday's immigrant is today's citizen.
I think this is quite good in a strange way. Nobody was happy about H1-B. Tech companies were complaining that quotas were too low. Skilled workers complained that this is a ploy to keep costs down, especially in academia. I've once heard an American PhD say 'I am not afraid of competing with very smart Chinese or Indian scientists. But they are making me compete with 10 mediocre Chinese or Indian PhDs and nobody can win this competition.' So, why not blow the entire H1-B system up and maybe in 3-5 years, once the crisis is over, something better emerges.
I am one of those Indian PhDs. Many of my friends are. I suppose it's easy for you and your friend (let's not get into an argument about who's stupider) to sip some coffee and say let's blow it up and wait for a few years when you have no personal effect.
Meanwhile I'm back in India, and completely lost in my mind on where and how I should proceed with my career.
I'm of the view that a country can choose whatever the hell they want about who to let in. Just stick to some rules with some consistency though. I came to America believing that there was a path that works a certain way, and that I could Hope for a better life in America if I follow it and work hard. Clearly your country hasn't kept your side of a gentleman's agreement there.
I suppose your friend is right, we Indian abd Chinese PhDs are idiots to think America is a fairer country than wherever we come from.
I agree that this whole thing could end up being good for people stuck in the current system. Personally, US immigration path has become so much less reasonable comparing to Canada's. Hostility is the word I'd describe the system in US.
On another topic, the American PhD's quote doesn't make sense without context. Why "mediocre" scientists are the issue for scientific "competition"? The proportion of top people is always low, scientist or not. It's the system's fault that the whole scientific process becomes a "competition" in my opinion.
I thought H-1B was for when one was unable to source enough skilled people locally? If so, it should kinda be self-adjusting if more high skilled people are unemployed, right?
That's its stated purpose, which is why you see it mostly used for software and science positions.
However, it's been "abused" by large consulting/contracting companies who hire an army of immigrant labor at the low end of market wages. The H1B recipient can't do much about it - they're tied to the employer (and their spouse can't work unless they also get an H1B). Yes, they can move jobs, but it takes legal resources to get the visa moved/re-issued (not sure about the technical details).
Us issues around 500k green cards a year. 85k h1bs are a drop in a bucket compared to that.
There are over 1M Indians stuck on gc backlog because of the racist gc caps. Various groups such as cis, fair etc. Want them out and hence these backdoor l
Also not even sure what
What's the status for TN visas right now? The US/Canadian border is semi-closed now except for things like trucking. If you were just issued one, could you get across?
While I have sympathy for the foreign workers who are hurt by this, honestly this is hardly a surprise. When you try to optimise for money over everything else (quality of government, public healthcare, education for your kids, safety) weird things happen. Try looking for countries that have a sane government with a clear immigration policy. These countries are out there. Yes, you will make less money. But at least this shit isn't likely to happen to you.
This doesn't make any sense. What does a "60 day cut" even mean? As I understand it, H1Bs get processed now and then get issued in like October. It is more than 60 days from now until October
Wouldn't the only result of this be a backlog of paperwork to process?
Most PhDs start with H-1Bs. So with longer freezes (not that anyone is hiring right now) you risk losing an entire cohort of the best scientists in many fields.
The H1B system along with the L1 and L2 and mostly labor arbitrage. Given the current employment situation, it should be since there are currently enough local workers given the state of the economy. The initial draft of the immigration pause included these, but some of the presidents advisors were concerned that it would upset Google, Apple etc. so it was removed from the final one.
There are 85K H1Bs a year of which 20K is for Masters/PHD students.
- Most foreign student revenue will dry up if you take H1B away.
- H1B is also used for doctors. Do we not want them?
- Given the remote transition underway, they will probably transfer over to Latin America/Canada. This is an issue even for existing tech workers. We are now competing for jobs with everyone that fall in American time zones.
[+] [-] curiousllama|5 years ago|reply
Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type (e.g., former students moving from OPT to H1B). What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore?
Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing and shut down most offices that process F1 (student) visas. The US just doesn't want high-skilled immigrants anymore.
[+] [-] toomuchtodo|5 years ago|reply
I do not believe it unreasonable to take measures to encourage hiring of citizens over importing workers when official unemployment is near 15%, and unofficially, closer to 20%. Your typical tech company is likely to be sophisticated enough to onboard skilled workers outside the US and support them working remotely, in which case, they are not impacted by this policy.
[+] [-] mxcrossb|5 years ago|reply
This one is personal for me. I have a good friend who had been in the US for like a decade, and finally his green card application was going through before the pandemic hit. What’s going to happen to him? Are you going to leave him visa-less during a pandemic, and kick him out of the country on whatever few flights are available? Is his company supposed to magically rebound when they’ve just lost a key worker with tons of experience?
Throughout the campaign cycle this president motivated his supporters by talking about illegal immigration. Yet at every opportunity, they instead reduce legal immigration.
[+] [-] awinder|5 years ago|reply
This sucks, and it breaks a lot of Americans hearts. My grandparents were the first natural-born Americans of our family and we were raised to understand what that meant. It's of little consequence right now & on any personal level, but America is not a ubiquitous place and the pendulum swings forever.
[+] [-] briffle|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|5 years ago|reply
H1B is a non-immigrant visa.
> Remember that it's not just new entrants that need H1B processing: it's immigrants currently in the country that need to transfer their visa type.
Immigrants already admitted to the US can not get and would not benefit from a non-immigrant visa.
Non-immigrants in the US might seek a different non-immigrant visa, but preventing them from getting one is not an immigration cut. It does not reduce the number of immigrant visas issued.
> What, are they supposed to leave or risk being denied a visa forevermore?
Yes, non-immigrants are supposed to leave when their eligibility for their non-immigrants visa status expires. That's what a non-immigrant visa means. (Even dual-intent non-immigrant visas: those just do not prohibit you from entering with the intent of seeking an immigrant visa while in non-immigrants status, but doing so displaced another prospective immigrant, so cutting the number of people in a position to do it has zero effect on immigration.)
> Not to mention, they've already paused green card processing
Well, yes, that's an actual immigration cut. No need for a back door.
[+] [-] macspoofing|5 years ago|reply
I think COVID is very relevant. But you are also correct that this action is in line with the present administration's immigration policies outside of COVID.
In the big picture on the global scale, we're looking at a back-peddling on globalization (which includes immigration and free trade). The echos of the Great Depression should be (but aren't) on the minds of policymakers and the public because this same isolationist and protectionist philosophy exacerbated the pain of the depression.
[+] [-] KorematsuFred|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2OEH8eoCRo0|5 years ago|reply
Edit:
From Wikipedia: Immigration is the international movement of people to a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle as permanent residents or naturalized citizens.
[+] [-] debt|5 years ago|reply
That’s funny. I don’t see how project managers are highly skilled labor. I don’t see how QA testers are highly skilled labor.
But I do see how to get people to work harder for less.
[+] [-] screye|5 years ago|reply
Do you think there should be a pathway to immigration for someone not from the US ? (Not just Indians/Chinese)
_______________________________________________________
Because honestly, there really isn't any at all. If all work visas are supposed to not have a pathway to citizenship. Then how is someone supposed to make it in ?
The diversity PR ? Which is almost explicitly an Anti-big country immigration visa, which even then, only has a 0.5% success rate ? (It is kind of hilarious that the visa thinks EU countries add more diversity to the US than those from other nations)
Or the investor PR ? ie. bribe your way into a GC.
Or be religious minister ? Because for some reason priests are a more productive part of society than people with PhDs.
Or should they be refugees. Which is also GC that has fallen out of favor among US politicians.
You say the H1B is a backdoor. But look at the other categories. People in the arts and general administration abuse the Eb1 GC. On the other hand it is almost impossible to get the EB1 GB without a willing employer (usually needs to be in research) and a top tier PhD.
Also, it is not just Indians. How do you think Europeans have historically immigrated to the US. Come over on an employment visa and then get a GC. Just because the ethnicity of the applicants has changed, doesn't mean that the system wasn't always in place. It is referred to as dual-intent for a reason.
I understand if the US wants to suddenly stop being a country that wants immigrants. But, they continue to sell the American dream, their inclusivity and proudly claim the the creations of 1st and 2nd gen immigrants as their own. That, makes them seem really hypocritical.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] DrScump|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Upvoter33|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmaurizi|5 years ago|reply
An example of where the journalistic commitment to being politically neutral harms the ability to properly inform the reader.
[+] [-] naveen99|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] koheripbal|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geogra4|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oh_come_on|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] JackPoach|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ramraj07|5 years ago|reply
Meanwhile I'm back in India, and completely lost in my mind on where and how I should proceed with my career.
I'm of the view that a country can choose whatever the hell they want about who to let in. Just stick to some rules with some consistency though. I came to America believing that there was a path that works a certain way, and that I could Hope for a better life in America if I follow it and work hard. Clearly your country hasn't kept your side of a gentleman's agreement there.
I suppose your friend is right, we Indian abd Chinese PhDs are idiots to think America is a fairer country than wherever we come from.
[+] [-] digizeph|5 years ago|reply
On another topic, the American PhD's quote doesn't make sense without context. Why "mediocre" scientists are the issue for scientific "competition"? The proportion of top people is always low, scientist or not. It's the system's fault that the whole scientific process becomes a "competition" in my opinion.
[+] [-] koheripbal|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matsemann|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alistairSH|5 years ago|reply
However, it's been "abused" by large consulting/contracting companies who hire an army of immigrant labor at the low end of market wages. The H1B recipient can't do much about it - they're tied to the employer (and their spouse can't work unless they also get an H1B). Yes, they can move jobs, but it takes legal resources to get the visa moved/re-issued (not sure about the technical details).
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] KorematsuFred|5 years ago|reply
There are over 1M Indians stuck on gc backlog because of the racist gc caps. Various groups such as cis, fair etc. Want them out and hence these backdoor l Also not even sure what
[+] [-] square_usual|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gnulinux|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drpgq|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joelbluminator|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eqdw|5 years ago|reply
Wouldn't the only result of this be a backlog of paperwork to process?
[+] [-] zzleeper|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rb2k_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] intopieces|5 years ago|reply
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/18/837855173/immigrant-doctors-f...
[+] [-] lgleason|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thedudeabides5|5 years ago|reply
America should be using this crisis to prioritize hiring the world's best medical, engineering, and technical talent.
It's like our last competitive advantage, a way to capture value from America being a desireable place, and we're pissing it away.
[+] [-] dang|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BadMrFrosty|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nell|5 years ago|reply
- Most foreign student revenue will dry up if you take H1B away.
- H1B is also used for doctors. Do we not want them?
- Given the remote transition underway, they will probably transfer over to Latin America/Canada. This is an issue even for existing tech workers. We are now competing for jobs with everyone that fall in American time zones.
[+] [-] b1gtuna|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ganstyles|5 years ago|reply