The reasons for not restarting production seem to be dogmatic and not evidence driven. Tesla is running the factory at a 30-40% capacity, and the Fremont factory has 5.3 million square feet of manufacturing and office space. Tesla claims their plan will ensure 6 ft of distance for every employee, and PPE and masks are provided and mandatory. Even the HVAC is changed to optimise for fresh air turnover and filters are changed on a regular basis.
A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and unavoidable interactions.
Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage.
This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support.
> This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support.
"Support" is a bit of an overloaded word. I do agree with you that I do not support a government policy that isn't evidence-driven. But I do support the ability of the government to set policy without convincing every one of its constituents of the validity of its evidence.
As a simple analogy, perhaps the speed limits for highways in my state are capped at 60 mph, but there's evidence that the roads can safely accommodate drivers at 70 mph, they're well-maintained, they are built to appropriate safety standards, etc. I wouldn't support the government keeping the speed limit at 60 mph based on flimsy evidence. But I also wouldn't object to the government enforcing the speed limit as it is - because the end result of saying that every driver has the right to make their own private judgment of whether the speed limit laws are validly reasoned is that there is no speed limit anymore.
People here are missing why, exactly, the government wants to lock down the admittedly low-risk Tesla factory. It's about political sustainability.
Right now, the government has a simple story: essential businesses stay open, and everything else stays closed. It's quick to express and easily understandable.
But as soon as the government starts picking and choosing "nonessential" businesses to allow to open, every single nonessential business will be clamoring for an allowance and emboldened to present themselves as heroic frontline workers. You'll see every nail salon in the state market themselves as paragons of safety and virtue, professionally run, basically cleaner than the best medical facilities in the world. And if the government allows Tesla and refuses nail salons/meat packing facilities/hookah bars, you'll have a large constituency who'll be pushing duplicitous but superficially plausible arguments like "Newsom loves his BigTech buddies like Elon Musk but hates everyday regular businesses like Tyson."
The quarantine only has power so long as the public understands it and supports it, and the government has made the plausible assumption that picking and choosing nonessentials would undermine public understanding and enforcement of the quarantine more than the value that would come in allowing certain safe nonessential businesses to return to work.
Your link doesn't agree with your text. The TESLA documents explicitly say that they are not providing PPE to everyone, but that people can bring their own masks.
> Bring and wear your personal protective equipment (PPE) – If Tesla has provided you with a face covering, you are required to wear it unless otherwise told by your local leadership. If Tesla has not provided you with one, you may bring or make your own following the Center for Disease Controls guidance
County officials were ready to let them open a week from today, but wanted a little more review and input into Tesla's plans. But apparently they ran out of patience.
Musk's previous defiance of the health order (without all these super-special controls) likely -does- encourage health officials to make extra-super-sure Tesla is in compliance, though.
>A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today.
No, Tesla has a history of higher injury rates than similar factories, and of trying to hide their high injury rates. There are multiple stories about this, very easy to find. Here is a podcast episode on injuries at Tesla[0]. Tesla has a history of being cavalier about worker safety.
With a new and developing situation like COVID, where the unknowns are more than the knowns, being more safe may mean being less evidence-first, and being evidence-first may mean being less safe. The advice was against wearing masks for so long because even though wearing masks was the cautious thing to do, it was not what the evidence suggested. If we wanted to go by evidence alone, there probably would be an advisory even today saying "there is no evidence masks work. I guess you can wear it as a fashion statement, but we have no evidence it would help with preventing the spread. You definitely shouldn't force shoppers, workers, travellers, etc. wear one, because evidence does not show it is required or even helpful."
Actually, I do agree with that, my PERSONAL opinion is that the panic around COVID-19 was artificial to a large degree from the very beginning. Most measures taken against it in many countries seem to me absolutely pointless and badly planned through.
The keyword here is "personal". Despite disagreeing with the policy, I don't gather parties at my properties and encourage public protests. What Musk is doing here is much worse, though, he blatantly says "fuck you" to the government and does it in maximally public way possible. If he doesn't get punished for that, it will be such a special attitude that I don't even know how to think about that. CA "authorities" should loose all authority after that.
> This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support.
The lockdown is literally the opposite. Show me the numbers that prove that COVID-19 is going away. Seems much more likely we'll see another spike soon due to opening early _against all evidence_.
I agree with all of your points, really. Tesla very well may be able to provide a relatively safe environment.
> This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach.
The problem is here, I think.
Let's say I never drink poison. I have no data supporting that poison does any harm at all, therefor my policy of not drinking poison is not evidence-driven.
If lock-in is successful it may very well look like it was unnecessary.
> A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today.
That's not clear. To get infected you need to be exposed to a certain number of viruses. I don't think the number is known for sure for this one, but for similar viruses its something like 1000.
A sneeze or cough expels millions, which is why people who are sneezing or coughing are so good at spreading it. Someone who isn't sneezing or coughing but who has it expels much fewer, taking maybe an hour to expel by breathing enough to infect someone else. Talking would cut that down some, but still take a while.
An infected person shopping at Costco or Home Depot who is not coughing is very unlikely to infect other shoppers that they pass while shopping. It would only be in line to checkout where other people would be near them for longer times, but if the business is doing reasonable crowd control those times should not be long enough for anyone to get the 1000 viruses.
This is why churches and movie theaters are much more dangerous. There you are near the same people for an hour or two, so even staying 6ft apart you might get enough total viruses during your visit to become sick.
Is a Tesla factory more like a Costco or Home Depot, where everyone is moving about and most of your encounters with others only last a short time, or is it more like a movie theater or church, where you are fairly stationary as are those around you? If a work shift is 8 hours and people are mostly stationary, I'd not at all be surprised if you need them to be much farther apart than 6ft to make it safe.
> Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage.
This is like saying I should get to speed because I have evidence that I can probably drive at that speed safely. Even if that was the case, and even if the county was willing to give me special treatment, does it seem right to demand special treatment immediately and deny any requests for clarification? Even if I was a special snowflake how should this policy apply fairly to others in the county so as not to invoke any lawsuits for favoritism?
I like Tesla but the world doesn't revolve around it.
Tesla's factories are the most dangerous car factories in the US by an order of magnitude more __than all other car manufacturers combined [0]__.
With such a bad safety track record, they must be completely high to believe that they are going to be doing significantly better with a pandemic going on.
Right now, not only the safety of their workers is at stake, but also the safety of the whole region around their factories.
Their track record proves that they cannot be trusted with the safety of their workers, what makes anybody believe that they can be trusted with the safety of whole regions instead?
> Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry
Can someone enlarge on this a bit? I can see how auto repair can be a critical need, but I don't see why auto manufacture is critical during this phase of the pandemic.
I can't get over the fact that hospitals, nursing homes, and critical parts of the food supply chain, lack crucial PPE and hundreds of emergency staff are dieing, but Elon Musk's car factory has an ample supply so that your luxury car can be delivered on time. I don't get how anyone can justify that.
> A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco.
It's not based on safety, it's based on need. People need a way to buy food, so stores like Costco that sell food are still open, even though it puts people at risk.
By contrast, we do not need to be producing new cars right now, so putting people at risk in order to build them is unnecessary.
Where Tesla is really at a disadvantage is in not being able to go a few months without making cars. No other shut-down car company is complaining like Elon. Maybe it's a problem he has in running the only non-union auto manufacturer? Well, he or Tesla should have enough money to provide for the workers during furlough. Oh, but he's a good corporate citizen, spending his time "cutting waste," so now when something big happens the company doesn't have the resilience to ride it out safely.
Furthermore, while all of the above were his choice, reopening isn't. He's being a rich baby and whining because he's not allowed to do whatever he wants to do. I hope the county/state smacks him down.
>This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach
What is this well of coronavirus evidence that the state is rejecting or ignoring? People aren't using the word "unprecedented" just because it's hard to type.
>Tesla claims their plan will ensure 6 ft of distance for every employee, and PPE and masks are provided and mandatory. Even the HVAC is changed to optimise for fresh air turnover and filters are changed on a regular basis.
Where is the evidence that this is the (second) safest approach?
From my interaction on Twitter there was full on mobs of people calling Elon typical names plus saying he’s forcing the workers to work and since he’s anti union Tesla should be shut down.
We’re dealing with peak information warfare here. Mobs of people echoing what their media sources project.
> Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage.
Why is Tesla not allowed to be open, then? Is it classified differently somehow?
> A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and unavoidable interactions.
Indeed, according to [0], as of mid-April (can’t find anything more recent), 30 grocery workers have died. This number is coming from a union representing 900K members. I don’t know how many grocery workers there are in the US, but obviously it’s at least 900K. To have only 30 die from that pool of workers in what could be argued as one of the most high risk jobs (coming into contact with huge numbers of people every single day) should probably say a lot about how much risk there is for the average Tesla assembly line worker. But as you said, evidence, or even common sense seems to go out the window here.
I actually agree with some of what Elon is saying around COVID - it is probably reasonable for the Tesla factory to open up partially this week, and shelter in place has gone on for too long without any proper justification in many areas. But his reasoning and actions surrounding this are completely insane. He spreads conspiracy theories about hospitals overcounting cases for profit, says that COVID is just like the flu, predicted no cases by the end of April, and then does this and opens up without approval, violating the law.
His fans seem to think he is some kind of genius, but based on what he has said about COVID he doesn't really seem that smart, or at least not well informed at all. Just by looking at the deaths year over year, it is clear that if anything, COVID cases are undercounted. And his claims that the shutdown of his factory are illegal are blatantly false. I don't know if he just doesn't know what he is talking about, or if he does and is just saying all this stuff for his personal gain. I suspect the former, but idk. This seems like a somewhat common pattern, where very successful and seemingly intelligent people have a few very obviously incorrect beliefs (ex. Steve Jobs and his fruit diet). Maybe they assume that success in one area implies knowledge in unrelated areas (I know I am guilty of this myself sometimes).
So Musk tweeted "If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me," but that really doesn't seem reasonable (and is super arrogant). If I pressure some friends into committing a crime, they are still culpable. Assuming wikipedia's accurate [0], duress is only a valid excuse if someone's threatening you with serious bodily harm or death.
'I would like you all to commit crimes, and I ask the government to not hold you responsible,' is so arrogant. He doesn't get to dictate how the law works.
> The chief executive announced the plans on Twitter Monday: “I will be on the line with everyone else,” he wrote. “If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me.”
Translation: my employees now must weigh the consequences of losing their jobs on the one hand vs. being arrested on the other.
What guarantees, if any, has Tesla has given its employees in the event of prosecution and or other consequences of violating state law?
Perhaps Tesla can reopen safely - if Amazon can run warehouses why shouldn’t they be able to manufacture cars?
The issue I personally have is that his personal comments, from twitter and from interview (Rogan) suggests that he is questioning how serious Covid is in general and that people have the right to do live how they choose with little regard for how that may affect those around them. He claims that patients with covid like symptoms, but without an official diagnosis, are being counted as covid patients, implying that they shouldn’t be (not true - most are designated under investigation until results are available or, in the early days, there simply weren’t enough tests available). Or that if one has covid, but also has another medical condition that was the cause of death, it should not be attributed to covid (again wrong, in many cases chronic conditions are controlled, until the virus wrecks havoc on the body).
Why would he be doing this? Because by questioning the seriousness of it, a push can be made to open the economy at large, which in many places and environments is still not safe. After all, what is the point of manufacturing Tesla’s if there aren’t enough people there to buy them?
It's frustrating there are no real details on this. From one article:
> Alameda County officials said they were "communicating directly and working closely with the Tesla team on the ground in Fremont" in a "collaborative, good faith effort to develop and implement a safety plan" to reopen while protecting workers' health. Meanwhile, Tesla sued the county, claiming it had no legal right to shut down the plant... Alameda County says it is expecting Tesla to submit its safety plan for approval, and that until that approval the company cannot resume normal production. [1]
On the one hand, at face value (and based on his previous words/actions), it appears like Elon's being uncooperative for the sake of it -- that he could have reopened anyways if he'd just chosen to work together with the county, instead of demanding his own way based on the principle of the thing. His stubborness is just a terrible way to do business.
On the other hand, we also don't know if the county was demanding unreasonable things, delaying re-opening as payback for Elon's previous tempertantrums (or other reasons), or why it's not just "going along" with the more general state-wide opening. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any reporting whatsoever at that level of nuance.
Just curious if there are folks in countries outside of the US or maybe even little Internet backwaters within the US that observe a public discourse that is even slightly more nuanced than the shrieking ideological standoff we seem to have here in the states?
For example, people publicly admitting that policy makers have difficult decisions in front of them, that both the health impact AND economic impact are crucial to consider, and maybe even collaborative, if lay, efforts to create a framework for resuming normalcy?
What is he gaining through acting like this? The county was on track to allow them to reopen on May 18, is an extra week of production really so important?
Courts generally don't take kindly to this sort of thing. And Tesla probably needs a business license to operate.
Musk expects Alameda County and the State of CA to support his profits over common sense, caution, and the rule of law; but Tesla isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the size of the California economy. He may be noisy, but he's not as important as he seems to think.
> "We are addressing this matter using the same phased approach we use for other businesses which have violated the order in the past, and we hope that Tesla will likewise comply without further enforcement measures."
Looks like yet again, Elon Musk will get special treatment. Small restaurants in Sutter and Yuba county were threatened with revocation of their liquor licenses for opening contrary to health regulations[1]. Yet Musk violates those regulations and the local officials express 'hope' that he will follow the rules?
Suppose there is an outbreak at the Tesla plant as there has been at that Smithfield plant in Sioux Falls or the Tyson plant in Wilkesboro? What happens next?
"Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me."
Good for him. Health officials always picking the course with the ultimate amount of caution possible at any cost seems to be winning quite a bit and it's nice to see some push back. When Governor Cuomo says you can't put a price on a life he is 100% incorrect, that's not how the world works. The economic cost of the shelter in place is expected to be worth it for about 12 weeks only according to NPR Marketplace and Bloomberg. Hopefully, it will soon be time that we get back to work. At least those of us who want to, or even better those of us who need to so we can feed our families.
I don't think much is gained from chronicling every episode in the saga of Musk's opposition to the quarantine.
There always seem to be bitter flame wars in the comments section, and I don't think there's anything "deeply interesting" about Musk's week long rebellion.
Given the Musk hate spiking up over how he seems to be going a bit off the rails this is a pretty easy sell to get on the hate train for him doing this.
At the same time, I know people in California who are building up debt they'll have to repay while not being allowed to work. That companies aren't paying them and for various reasons unemployment aren't an option. It's not much better in my state.
The biggest factor in if I would agree with Musk on this is if Tesla has been singled out. I'm a bit out of the loop on my ability to cross reference things here, but are there any other Automakers in Alameda county? Are they shut down as well? If no to either of those then I can see why it does seem like government overreach.
I say this as someone with preexisting conditions who is still working during the outbreak and has been deemed essential by Local, State, and Federal. I also say it as someone who works at a job site that had similar "Bring your own PPE" rules, and only put them in place last week despite us working non stop.
We've had around a dozen people in my office with scares
who were tested, nobody has come back positive yet, at least by what is claimed. From my perspective, if that's true, it is possible to work safely. From reading other comments on the plans Tesla has it sounds like Musk will do more than my work about this...
As an advocate for science, I'm fine with this. They're going above and beyond to protect workers vs Home Depot or other "necessary" businesses. There needs to be scientific, evidenced-based approach, not some "Obey" approach
[+] [-] dannyw|5 years ago|reply
Tesla's full list is available here: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...
A Tesla factory is a much safer place to be than a Home Depot or a Costco, and many other businesses open in California today. We aren't talking about sporting events here: we're talking about some of the lowest risk and unavoidable interactions.
Carmakers are also defined as a COVID19 critical industry, and every other carmaker manufacturing in the United States is either open, or capable of open today. This puts Tesla at a serious disadvantage.
This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach. That is something I cannot support.
[+] [-] geofft|5 years ago|reply
"Support" is a bit of an overloaded word. I do agree with you that I do not support a government policy that isn't evidence-driven. But I do support the ability of the government to set policy without convincing every one of its constituents of the validity of its evidence.
As a simple analogy, perhaps the speed limits for highways in my state are capped at 60 mph, but there's evidence that the roads can safely accommodate drivers at 70 mph, they're well-maintained, they are built to appropriate safety standards, etc. I wouldn't support the government keeping the speed limit at 60 mph based on flimsy evidence. But I also wouldn't object to the government enforcing the speed limit as it is - because the end result of saying that every driver has the right to make their own private judgment of whether the speed limit laws are validly reasoned is that there is no speed limit anymore.
[+] [-] scarmig|5 years ago|reply
Right now, the government has a simple story: essential businesses stay open, and everything else stays closed. It's quick to express and easily understandable.
But as soon as the government starts picking and choosing "nonessential" businesses to allow to open, every single nonessential business will be clamoring for an allowance and emboldened to present themselves as heroic frontline workers. You'll see every nail salon in the state market themselves as paragons of safety and virtue, professionally run, basically cleaner than the best medical facilities in the world. And if the government allows Tesla and refuses nail salons/meat packing facilities/hookah bars, you'll have a large constituency who'll be pushing duplicitous but superficially plausible arguments like "Newsom loves his BigTech buddies like Elon Musk but hates everyday regular businesses like Tyson."
The quarantine only has power so long as the public understands it and supports it, and the government has made the plausible assumption that picking and choosing nonessentials would undermine public understanding and enforcement of the quarantine more than the value that would come in allowing certain safe nonessential businesses to return to work.
[+] [-] foob4r|5 years ago|reply
https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man...
Tesla Had 3 Times as Many OSHA Violations as the 10 Largest US Plants Combined
CEO Elon Musk once called California OSHA the 'most stringent' safety organization in the US.
[+] [-] tedivm|5 years ago|reply
> Bring and wear your personal protective equipment (PPE) – If Tesla has provided you with a face covering, you are required to wear it unless otherwise told by your local leadership. If Tesla has not provided you with one, you may bring or make your own following the Center for Disease Controls guidance
[+] [-] mlyle|5 years ago|reply
Musk's previous defiance of the health order (without all these super-special controls) likely -does- encourage health officials to make extra-super-sure Tesla is in compliance, though.
[+] [-] tacon|5 years ago|reply
No, Tesla has a history of higher injury rates than similar factories, and of trying to hide their high injury rates. There are multiple stories about this, very easy to find. Here is a podcast episode on injuries at Tesla[0]. Tesla has a history of being cavalier about worker safety.
[0] https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/working-through-the-pain...
[+] [-] smnrchrds|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Barrin92|5 years ago|reply
I hope however you do support respecting the law even in cases where you disagree with a decision.
[+] [-] qppo|5 years ago|reply
conversely, Tesla defying the order and bypassing the courts is defying the rule of law which I have trouble supporting.
[+] [-] krick|5 years ago|reply
The keyword here is "personal". Despite disagreeing with the policy, I don't gather parties at my properties and encourage public protests. What Musk is doing here is much worse, though, he blatantly says "fuck you" to the government and does it in maximally public way possible. If he doesn't get punished for that, it will be such a special attitude that I don't even know how to think about that. CA "authorities" should loose all authority after that.
[+] [-] myko|5 years ago|reply
The lockdown is literally the opposite. Show me the numbers that prove that COVID-19 is going away. Seems much more likely we'll see another spike soon due to opening early _against all evidence_.
[+] [-] staticassertion|5 years ago|reply
> This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach.
The problem is here, I think.
Let's say I never drink poison. I have no data supporting that poison does any harm at all, therefor my policy of not drinking poison is not evidence-driven.
If lock-in is successful it may very well look like it was unnecessary.
[+] [-] tzs|5 years ago|reply
That's not clear. To get infected you need to be exposed to a certain number of viruses. I don't think the number is known for sure for this one, but for similar viruses its something like 1000.
A sneeze or cough expels millions, which is why people who are sneezing or coughing are so good at spreading it. Someone who isn't sneezing or coughing but who has it expels much fewer, taking maybe an hour to expel by breathing enough to infect someone else. Talking would cut that down some, but still take a while.
An infected person shopping at Costco or Home Depot who is not coughing is very unlikely to infect other shoppers that they pass while shopping. It would only be in line to checkout where other people would be near them for longer times, but if the business is doing reasonable crowd control those times should not be long enough for anyone to get the 1000 viruses.
This is why churches and movie theaters are much more dangerous. There you are near the same people for an hour or two, so even staying 6ft apart you might get enough total viruses during your visit to become sick.
Is a Tesla factory more like a Costco or Home Depot, where everyone is moving about and most of your encounters with others only last a short time, or is it more like a movie theater or church, where you are fairly stationary as are those around you? If a work shift is 8 hours and people are mostly stationary, I'd not at all be surprised if you need them to be much farther apart than 6ft to make it safe.
[+] [-] justapassenger|5 years ago|reply
False. Most of car factories are still closed in USA. Source - https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/follow-latest-assembl...
[+] [-] jayd16|5 years ago|reply
I like Tesla but the world doesn't revolve around it.
[+] [-] fluffything|5 years ago|reply
Citation needed please.
Tesla's factories are the most dangerous car factories in the US by an order of magnitude more __than all other car manufacturers combined [0]__.
With such a bad safety track record, they must be completely high to believe that they are going to be doing significantly better with a pandemic going on.
Right now, not only the safety of their workers is at stake, but also the safety of the whole region around their factories.
Their track record proves that they cannot be trusted with the safety of their workers, what makes anybody believe that they can be trusted with the safety of whole regions instead?
Doesn't make any sense to me.
[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2019/03/01/tesla-sa...
[+] [-] xenocyon|5 years ago|reply
Can someone enlarge on this a bit? I can see how auto repair can be a critical need, but I don't see why auto manufacture is critical during this phase of the pandemic.
[+] [-] tmpz22|5 years ago|reply
Our doctors and nurses are just fodder.
[+] [-] rozab|5 years ago|reply
And what about the reasons for restarting production? We all know this decision is being driven by Musk's misguided ideology.
[+] [-] Wowfunhappy|5 years ago|reply
It's not based on safety, it's based on need. People need a way to buy food, so stores like Costco that sell food are still open, even though it puts people at risk.
By contrast, we do not need to be producing new cars right now, so putting people at risk in order to build them is unnecessary.
[+] [-] rhizome|5 years ago|reply
Furthermore, while all of the above were his choice, reopening isn't. He's being a rich baby and whining because he's not allowed to do whatever he wants to do. I hope the county/state smacks him down.
>This is locking down for the sake of locking down, not an evidence-first safety driven approach
What is this well of coronavirus evidence that the state is rejecting or ignoring? People aren't using the word "unprecedented" just because it's hard to type.
>Tesla claims their plan will ensure 6 ft of distance for every employee, and PPE and masks are provided and mandatory. Even the HVAC is changed to optimise for fresh air turnover and filters are changed on a regular basis.
Where is the evidence that this is the (second) safest approach?
[+] [-] dfischer|5 years ago|reply
We’re dealing with peak information warfare here. Mobs of people echoing what their media sources project.
[+] [-] _bxg1|5 years ago|reply
Why is Tesla not allowed to be open, then? Is it classified differently somehow?
[+] [-] xienze|5 years ago|reply
Indeed, according to [0], as of mid-April (can’t find anything more recent), 30 grocery workers have died. This number is coming from a union representing 900K members. I don’t know how many grocery workers there are in the US, but obviously it’s at least 900K. To have only 30 die from that pool of workers in what could be argued as one of the most high risk jobs (coming into contact with huge numbers of people every single day) should probably say a lot about how much risk there is for the average Tesla assembly line worker. But as you said, evidence, or even common sense seems to go out the window here.
0: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/04/14/coronavirus-...
[+] [-] GhostVII|5 years ago|reply
His fans seem to think he is some kind of genius, but based on what he has said about COVID he doesn't really seem that smart, or at least not well informed at all. Just by looking at the deaths year over year, it is clear that if anything, COVID cases are undercounted. And his claims that the shutdown of his factory are illegal are blatantly false. I don't know if he just doesn't know what he is talking about, or if he does and is just saying all this stuff for his personal gain. I suspect the former, but idk. This seems like a somewhat common pattern, where very successful and seemingly intelligent people have a few very obviously incorrect beliefs (ex. Steve Jobs and his fruit diet). Maybe they assume that success in one area implies knowledge in unrelated areas (I know I am guilty of this myself sometimes).
[+] [-] 6gvONxR4sf7o|5 years ago|reply
'I would like you all to commit crimes, and I ask the government to not hold you responsible,' is so arrogant. He doesn't get to dictate how the law works.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress_in_American_law#Require...
[+] [-] Aeolun|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BrainInAJar|5 years ago|reply
These aren't elon's friends. They're employees. There is a huge power dynamic
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] fasteddie31003|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] astronautjones|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vkou|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] aazaa|5 years ago|reply
Translation: my employees now must weigh the consequences of losing their jobs on the one hand vs. being arrested on the other.
What guarantees, if any, has Tesla has given its employees in the event of prosecution and or other consequences of violating state law?
[+] [-] dr_|5 years ago|reply
The issue I personally have is that his personal comments, from twitter and from interview (Rogan) suggests that he is questioning how serious Covid is in general and that people have the right to do live how they choose with little regard for how that may affect those around them. He claims that patients with covid like symptoms, but without an official diagnosis, are being counted as covid patients, implying that they shouldn’t be (not true - most are designated under investigation until results are available or, in the early days, there simply weren’t enough tests available). Or that if one has covid, but also has another medical condition that was the cause of death, it should not be attributed to covid (again wrong, in many cases chronic conditions are controlled, until the virus wrecks havoc on the body).
Why would he be doing this? Because by questioning the seriousness of it, a push can be made to open the economy at large, which in many places and environments is still not safe. After all, what is the point of manufacturing Tesla’s if there aren’t enough people there to buy them?
[+] [-] johnnyo|5 years ago|reply
Your boss tells you to come to work, and the govt is saying your workplace should be closed.
Can you fire someone for refusing to report when the county is supposed to be closed?
What an awful spot to put your employees in. If you come in, you might get arrested, if you don’t, you might get fired.
[+] [-] dang|5 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23145592
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23130674
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517
[+] [-] crazygringo|5 years ago|reply
> Alameda County officials said they were "communicating directly and working closely with the Tesla team on the ground in Fremont" in a "collaborative, good faith effort to develop and implement a safety plan" to reopen while protecting workers' health. Meanwhile, Tesla sued the county, claiming it had no legal right to shut down the plant... Alameda County says it is expecting Tesla to submit its safety plan for approval, and that until that approval the company cannot resume normal production. [1]
On the one hand, at face value (and based on his previous words/actions), it appears like Elon's being uncooperative for the sake of it -- that he could have reopened anyways if he'd just chosen to work together with the county, instead of demanding his own way based on the principle of the thing. His stubborness is just a terrible way to do business.
On the other hand, we also don't know if the county was demanding unreasonable things, delaying re-opening as payback for Elon's previous tempertantrums (or other reasons), or why it's not just "going along" with the more general state-wide opening. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any reporting whatsoever at that level of nuance.
[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/0...
[+] [-] xoxoy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcims|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] camjohnson26|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] allears|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greendave|5 years ago|reply
Looks like yet again, Elon Musk will get special treatment. Small restaurants in Sutter and Yuba county were threatened with revocation of their liquor licenses for opening contrary to health regulations[1]. Yet Musk violates those regulations and the local officials express 'hope' that he will follow the rules?
Laws once again are for little people.
[1] https://la.eater.com/2020/5/7/21250785/california-restaurant...
[+] [-] HarryHirsch|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grecy|5 years ago|reply
"Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me."
[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891
[+] [-] rosywoozlechan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] badRNG|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uHm3da|5 years ago|reply
At the same time, I know people in California who are building up debt they'll have to repay while not being allowed to work. That companies aren't paying them and for various reasons unemployment aren't an option. It's not much better in my state.
The biggest factor in if I would agree with Musk on this is if Tesla has been singled out. I'm a bit out of the loop on my ability to cross reference things here, but are there any other Automakers in Alameda county? Are they shut down as well? If no to either of those then I can see why it does seem like government overreach.
I say this as someone with preexisting conditions who is still working during the outbreak and has been deemed essential by Local, State, and Federal. I also say it as someone who works at a job site that had similar "Bring your own PPE" rules, and only put them in place last week despite us working non stop.
We've had around a dozen people in my office with scares who were tested, nobody has come back positive yet, at least by what is claimed. From my perspective, if that's true, it is possible to work safely. From reading other comments on the plans Tesla has it sounds like Musk will do more than my work about this...
[+] [-] coliveira|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exabrial|5 years ago|reply