I really appreciate how this is an inversion of the "time-honored tradition" of making founders do loads of extra work within arbitrary deadlines in addition to growing their company. Too often, this is more a one-sided scramble (resembling an "audience with the king") than a mutually respectful conversation.
It's really promising to see that you value the time of the founders you fund so much that you are ready to talk to them in a way that suits them, not just you.
You’re saying that a setting up a system where founders share confidential information (monthly!) with an investor who has zero timeline for providing any kind of feedback, let alone an investment decision, is a good thing?
hey folks, I'm the founder of Earnest Capital and love to hear questions or feedback. The gist here is I think the way we make founders pitch investors is pretty lame and we can do better. Definitely a v0.1 of our thinking here and would love suggestions for how to take it further.
Tyler, this is really innovative. The VC model needs rethinking, aligning more with founders, and along the lines of what you're doing here. Your mentor model works great also.
As a founder of a company that has gotten to 8 MM users across 95+ countries, and $1M in revenues, and
there is a lot more I can tell you in a private conversation. We've applied to VCs along the way, but the model is not always aligned with companies like ours, which make revenue from the beginning rather than hockey stick growth and zero revenues.
One of the major reasons is that these kind of startups often need small amounts to get to the next level, but the due diligence of a VC sometimes costs more than that amount. If there was a "roadmap" model that VC would fund, say, $10K to get to the next level, then $20K, etc. and if it falls short, then they have to seek another such VC and syndicate. A bit like taking on lenders except it would be more along the lines of your Shared Earnings Agreement + Equity. Everything would be clearly spelled out, and rather than spending tons of time on due diligence, it would just be about a history of execution.
PS: We filled out your "regular" application in early April, please check email from @qbix.com ... would love to talk next week.
PPS: If you're a startup founder chime in and add your 2c, does your own experience in early stages resonate with what I've said? That if you were able to break down what you need to get to the next level, in $10K and $20K increments, with a second or third chance on slightly worse terms, you'd be happy to be funded in that manner, and work hard to make serious progress and document it.
I suggest you make "Early stage investing for bootstrappers" more prominent on the Trailhead announcement page. It wasn't clear to me what kind of companies you invested in and at which stage until I read HN comments and looked around your site a bit.
I really like where you are going with this. Trailhead seems to be a formalization of the method that has worked best for my startup: keeping investors in the loop as to the development of our company, soliciting and then incorporating their (usually very valuable) feedback when we need it, and being transparent about where we are in terms of a raise.
Really great idea, and I hope more investors follow in your footsteps.
I hate when things pop up when I select text, because I have a tendency to randomly highlight text as I'm reading it.
This little speaker pops up, so I clicked it out of curiosity, and it started to speak the text. The icon choice is a little unusual (I'd expect a play button or something, but that icon is typically used to control volume). But then I couldn't get it to stop playing. I even closed the tab and it was still playing. And for some reason Chrome doesn't show that tab as even playing audio so I could mute it. What the heck is going on there?
I tend to do the same, clicking, right-clicking, and highlighting text. Very likely using the Web Speech API[1]. I was able to reproduce your report of the audio not stopping when closing the tab so I dug a bit and found this open bug[2] in chromium.
I hate when I click into an HN story's comments and the top comment is someone complaining about the site's design.
(This is not a personal attack on you, and I'm not trying to downplay the poor design, just that...I come to HN to read about the content of the stories, not their design.)
I'm curious if any firms will be created where they're happy receiving 2-5x return after 5-10 years, the terms of these novel investment firms - arguably better than traditional VCs - are still trying to get extra icing from the cake and not just happy with the icing on their own slice.
"One reason for wanting to handle every possible outcome is that we are committed to a SEAL not having any control over the business: no equity, no shares, no board seat, no preferred voting rights." isn't congruent with "... there is a residual Equity Basis that remains after the Shared Earnings Cap is fully repaid" - I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding or you're first saying there is in fact an equity-like function but in the conclusion claiming "no equity" taken?
Also, anything regarding to the value of the mentors-investors that they claim will help out an investment (because they're incentivized) is all just ear candy and hype without evidence that they'll actually add any value or give useful direction for whatever business model(s) you implement.
Maybe earn trust with founders before asking for or expecting extra icing?
investors like me are at a basic level middlemen. We have to raise capital from other sources and then invest it in founders. So it's not so much a questions of what kind of returns we're 'happy' with as it is, what kind of returns will enable us to keep collecting more money that we can turn around and use to back founders. If I was already a billionaire deploying my own capital, it would be a different story (and I'm actually a big proponent of folks investing with lower return expectation because I think entrepreneurship is an inherent social good) but that's not our situation.
> is all just ear candy and hype without evidence
the only evidence i can think of would be reviews from other founders who've worked with us. They are a super nice bunch and are generally happy to have a chat if you're curious. Here's one founder quoting another on the non-cash benefits of working with us: https://twitter.com/_rchase_/status/1233074457406771208?s=20
>Maybe earn trust with founders before asking for or expecting extra icing?
100% Agreed.
We raised a SEAL round led by Earnest Capital in 2019. We gave up no board seats or equity, and we remained an LLC. If we were to raise a subsequent round or sell the company, they’d be able to participate per their Equity Basis.
Under a SEAL, an exit isn’t the only way for investors to realize ROI — we can run a profitable business and distribute Shared Earnings.
FWIW, the mentorship and cohort of similar founders has been valuable to us so far.
Great to see innovation in the fundraising process. As a founder, the things that bother me the most about fundraising are:
1. The experience imbalance. VCs do pitch meetings every day for years on end. Founders, not so much. No wonder the expectations mismatch.
2. Wildly unpredictable outcomes. Early stage fundraising is more like working a fuzzy strategic partnership than applying for a loan. The same inputs probably don't produce the same outputs.
Yea, for founders going down a traditional VC path, there is some what weird but actually sensible logic to the idea that "being good at pitching VCs" is actually a useful skill to filter for. If I'm a Seed VC, assessing how well the founder will do at raising from Series A-F investors is actually part of the game.
We do "funding for bootstrappers" so most founders that work with us don't really plan on needing to raise more capital (it's not prohibited or anything, just not Plan A). So we and they don't really care about how "good" they are at playing the game of pitching.
This looks pretty cool. The experience of doing this sounds very similar to participating in YC Startup School.
> You can leverage the Founder Summit forums for feedback from the Earnest team and our broader community of awesome founders and mentors (a free trial is included for everybody on Trailhead).
I’m not familiar with the founder summit forums, but this sound sounds similar to the community aspect of Startup School.
You mentioned that people get a free trial, but it sounds like someone can sign up for trailhead and stay in it for the long term without ever deciding to raise the earnest. What do you guys do in that case? When does someone get kicked out of their free trial? :)
Thanks! Definitely pulling on the same thread as Startup School (though I've never done it myself). Some structural differences might be
1/ this explicitly designed to be a replacement for the application process at Earnest. Over time you build up a profile that contains most of what we need to make an investment decision. We'll still need to chat and do diligence, but we're trying to remove a lot of the uncertainty around what should be in a pitch and when to time the pitch. Basically pitching is not a skillset we optimize for at Earnest (since most of the founders we back not intend to raise continuously more rounds of capital).
2/ This is explicitly opinionated in structure. Everything will intentionally skew towards our "funding for bootstrappers" strategy vs being generic advice. This should help founders decide if they are a fit for working with us long-term.
3/ This is not a "how to build a business" process. It's much closer to "here is a bunch of questions and prompts that we have found valuable to strengthen founders' thinking and strategy + some resources"... we're not here to teach you how to build a business with this.
> You mentioned that people get a free trial, but it sounds like someone can sign up for trailhead and stay in it for the long term without ever deciding to raise the earnest. What do you guys do in that case? When does someone get kicked out of their free trial? :)
good question. this is subject to experiments/change but the way we're thinking about it now is 1) Founder Summit remains a paid community (we are still a small fund and this allows us to hire an awesome team + pay people for workshops, etc) 2) We want to avoid a "pay to pitch" scenario so Trailhead folks get a 3-month free trial. 3) At the end they can choose: don't apply to Earnest but stay in the community and pay, apply to Earnest (portfolio co's get free access), or decide they've gotten what they need and move on from both.
Congrats on the launch! Both Trailhead and SEAL are very interesting ideas, and I really hope they take off (read: get copied by more investors ;)
As an early stage bootstrapping founder, I'm curious to see how Trailhead works in practice. But regardless of whether or not it works, thanks for thinking like a founder and being willing to experiment.
btw small typo: the link to 1 Second Everyday in your portfolio actually directs to yac.chat
The SEAL is basically debt with a super weird equity kicker that could completely ruin your cap table if you need to raise before paying any debt back, so hoping nobody copies it.
Can you say more? We explicitly do ask, at the end of each section, if founders want to (optionally) send us the results to build up their profile/"application"... so there's some above board data collection happening.
What's your main concern re: data collection with SS and/or trailhead?
It's also just a generic term for a guidepost at the beginning of a journey – which is a perfect symbol for the product. I don't think there's any risk of confusion with a vendor-specific training portal.
[+] [-] arvidkahl|5 years ago|reply
It's really promising to see that you value the time of the founders you fund so much that you are ready to talk to them in a way that suits them, not just you.
I like this.
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] earnesttruth|5 years ago|reply
You’re saying that a setting up a system where founders share confidential information (monthly!) with an investor who has zero timeline for providing any kind of feedback, let alone an investment decision, is a good thing?
Who benefits from that exactly?
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EGreg|5 years ago|reply
As a founder of a company that has gotten to 8 MM users across 95+ countries, and $1M in revenues, and there is a lot more I can tell you in a private conversation. We've applied to VCs along the way, but the model is not always aligned with companies like ours, which make revenue from the beginning rather than hockey stick growth and zero revenues.
One of the major reasons is that these kind of startups often need small amounts to get to the next level, but the due diligence of a VC sometimes costs more than that amount. If there was a "roadmap" model that VC would fund, say, $10K to get to the next level, then $20K, etc. and if it falls short, then they have to seek another such VC and syndicate. A bit like taking on lenders except it would be more along the lines of your Shared Earnings Agreement + Equity. Everything would be clearly spelled out, and rather than spending tons of time on due diligence, it would just be about a history of execution.
PS: We filled out your "regular" application in early April, please check email from @qbix.com ... would love to talk next week.
PPS: If you're a startup founder chime in and add your 2c, does your own experience in early stages resonate with what I've said? That if you were able to break down what you need to get to the next level, in $10K and $20K increments, with a second or third chance on slightly worse terms, you'd be happy to be funded in that manner, and work hard to make serious progress and document it.
[+] [-] zomglings|5 years ago|reply
I really like where you are going with this. Trailhead seems to be a formalization of the method that has worked best for my startup: keeping investors in the loop as to the development of our company, soliciting and then incorporating their (usually very valuable) feedback when we need it, and being transparent about where we are in terms of a raise.
Really great idea, and I hope more investors follow in your footsteps.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] joekrill|5 years ago|reply
This little speaker pops up, so I clicked it out of curiosity, and it started to speak the text. The icon choice is a little unusual (I'd expect a play button or something, but that icon is typically used to control volume). But then I couldn't get it to stop playing. I even closed the tab and it was still playing. And for some reason Chrome doesn't show that tab as even playing audio so I could mute it. What the heck is going on there?
[+] [-] ccheney|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Speech_...
[2] https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=517317
[+] [-] cle|5 years ago|reply
(This is not a personal attack on you, and I'm not trying to downplay the poor design, just that...I come to HN to read about the content of the stories, not their design.)
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] loceng|5 years ago|reply
Re: https://earnestcapital.com/shared-earnings-agreement/
"One reason for wanting to handle every possible outcome is that we are committed to a SEAL not having any control over the business: no equity, no shares, no board seat, no preferred voting rights." isn't congruent with "... there is a residual Equity Basis that remains after the Shared Earnings Cap is fully repaid" - I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding or you're first saying there is in fact an equity-like function but in the conclusion claiming "no equity" taken?
Also, anything regarding to the value of the mentors-investors that they claim will help out an investment (because they're incentivized) is all just ear candy and hype without evidence that they'll actually add any value or give useful direction for whatever business model(s) you implement.
Maybe earn trust with founders before asking for or expecting extra icing?
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
> is all just ear candy and hype without evidence the only evidence i can think of would be reviews from other founders who've worked with us. They are a super nice bunch and are generally happy to have a chat if you're curious. Here's one founder quoting another on the non-cash benefits of working with us: https://twitter.com/_rchase_/status/1233074457406771208?s=20
>Maybe earn trust with founders before asking for or expecting extra icing? 100% Agreed.
[+] [-] sigil|5 years ago|reply
Under a SEAL, an exit isn’t the only way for investors to realize ROI — we can run a profitable business and distribute Shared Earnings.
FWIW, the mentorship and cohort of similar founders has been valuable to us so far.
[+] [-] embrassingstuff|5 years ago|reply
But looking at the web site, over approx 2 years, 15 investments, I presume low-6-figures.
So out of 1000s online applications of "self builders" u have a 1 in 1000 acceptance rate?
This statistic is just as important as being "founder friendly" or "no song and dance needed".
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jkarneges|5 years ago|reply
1. The experience imbalance. VCs do pitch meetings every day for years on end. Founders, not so much. No wonder the expectations mismatch.
2. Wildly unpredictable outcomes. Early stage fundraising is more like working a fuzzy strategic partnership than applying for a loan. The same inputs probably don't produce the same outputs.
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
We do "funding for bootstrappers" so most founders that work with us don't really plan on needing to raise more capital (it's not prohibited or anything, just not Plan A). So we and they don't really care about how "good" they are at playing the game of pitching.
[+] [-] burlesona|5 years ago|reply
> You can leverage the Founder Summit forums for feedback from the Earnest team and our broader community of awesome founders and mentors (a free trial is included for everybody on Trailhead).
I’m not familiar with the founder summit forums, but this sound sounds similar to the community aspect of Startup School.
You mentioned that people get a free trial, but it sounds like someone can sign up for trailhead and stay in it for the long term without ever deciding to raise the earnest. What do you guys do in that case? When does someone get kicked out of their free trial? :)
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
1/ this explicitly designed to be a replacement for the application process at Earnest. Over time you build up a profile that contains most of what we need to make an investment decision. We'll still need to chat and do diligence, but we're trying to remove a lot of the uncertainty around what should be in a pitch and when to time the pitch. Basically pitching is not a skillset we optimize for at Earnest (since most of the founders we back not intend to raise continuously more rounds of capital).
2/ This is explicitly opinionated in structure. Everything will intentionally skew towards our "funding for bootstrappers" strategy vs being generic advice. This should help founders decide if they are a fit for working with us long-term.
3/ This is not a "how to build a business" process. It's much closer to "here is a bunch of questions and prompts that we have found valuable to strengthen founders' thinking and strategy + some resources"... we're not here to teach you how to build a business with this.
> You mentioned that people get a free trial, but it sounds like someone can sign up for trailhead and stay in it for the long term without ever deciding to raise the earnest. What do you guys do in that case? When does someone get kicked out of their free trial? :)
good question. this is subject to experiments/change but the way we're thinking about it now is 1) Founder Summit remains a paid community (we are still a small fund and this allows us to hire an awesome team + pay people for workshops, etc) 2) We want to avoid a "pay to pitch" scenario so Trailhead folks get a 3-month free trial. 3) At the end they can choose: don't apply to Earnest but stay in the community and pay, apply to Earnest (portfolio co's get free access), or decide they've gotten what they need and move on from both.
[+] [-] koolhead17|5 years ago|reply
Keep up good work, we need a different route/way of building business as well. :)
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guptaneil|5 years ago|reply
As an early stage bootstrapping founder, I'm curious to see how Trailhead works in practice. But regardless of whether or not it works, thanks for thinking like a founder and being willing to experiment.
btw small typo: the link to 1 Second Everyday in your portfolio actually directs to yac.chat
[+] [-] throwaway243711|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcmaffey|5 years ago|reply
Any thoughts yet on how to address that?
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
What's your main concern re: data collection with SS and/or trailhead?
[+] [-] Bellamy|5 years ago|reply
They steal your idea or sell the data? I don't think a plan or a business description is that much worth, because "the thing" doesn't even exist yet.
I could be very very wrong here. :/
[+] [-] jrenshaw|5 years ago|reply
https://trademarks.justia.com/865/88/trailhead-86588816.html
[+] [-] apetresc|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tylertringas|5 years ago|reply
I think it's a generic enough term but we'll find out!