> “We've known this person so long we know he'll do a proper job."
> The delivery schedule also has built-in buffers. If a delivery is due at 13:00, the dabbawala will aim for around 12:00 [...] For every 15 to 20 dabbawalas there is also always someone on stand-by in case one of them gets delayed.
> At 12:45 a dabbawala races around the corner on a bike and rushes shouting into an office building. [...] The dabbawala was late by his own standards but the customer was probably never aware of the hiccup, he says.
> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige.
> And as a cooperative all dabbawalas are equal partners with supervisors called mukadams who are elected.
It seems like there's no major secret here. The key to achieving such things is... surprise surprise... treating your workers fairly and paying them well so they actually give a shit about their job, and feel appreciated and proud of what they do. The same would actually translate to many other industries.
The food delivery startups could achieve the same if they paid their delivery drivers fairly (at the moment most don't even make minimum wage - compared to the dabbawalas’ "good salary") instead of pissing away their money into marketing/advertising or into someone's pocket, whether greedy investors or "engineers" to build a blockchain-based, Kubernetes-powered microservices playground.
>The key to achieving such things is... surprise surprise... treating your workers fairly and paying them well so they actually give a shit about their job
Easier said than done.
Not that I disagree, but business models like these are difficult in more developed countries. It's the same reason you will find middle class people in many less developed countries with domestic staff. The wealth divide between the middle class and poor is so extreme in places like India, that you can afford to charge your regular customers enough money to pay poor employees a "good" wage. "Good" in this case is of course very relative. Relative to many other poor people that have no job at all.
>The food delivery startups could achieve the same if they paid their delivery drivers fairly (at the moment most don't even make minimum wage - compared to the dabbawalas’ "good salary")
A quick data check suggests that a software engineer in Mumbai can easily make literally ten times this "good salary". Would you consider paying food delivery workers in London 10% of an software engineer's pay packet a "good salary"? Fair treatment?
Some crude calculations on my part suggest that it would be well below minimum wage in the UK. Is it possible that there might be more going on than "good salary"? Other commenters point out that there's a deep gulf in expected living conditions that enables such a low level of pay to be a "good salary".
Taken together, these suggest to me that this is a model that exploits extreme poverty and inequality. One that perhaps we should be glad cannot be replicated in many other places.
>The food delivery startups could achieve the same if they paid their delivery drivers fairly
They could, but they do everything to give the perception that food delivery is cheap.
UberEats takes a 30% cut of the restaurant price. Most of them don't increase their prices in response. They really should consider it (and fortunately, some do), it devalues their offering (and restaurants already work with razor thin margins).
Same thing for their drivers salaries. Better to drive it into the ground than paying them a living wage and see a slower adoption as a result.
Not sure the quotes around engineers are needed. I have zero sympathy for most of these companies but it is still an engineering challenge to do food delivery at scale.
No the secret is to have a caste of workers with low expectations, lack of better opportunities, and high work ethics - grounding it in religion and making it a 'mission' instead of a job helps.
Dabbawalas are getting paid in good salary because they are a lot more efficient comparing to Uber drivers.
From other reports / business review I am reading, there are about 200k customers with 5k Dabbawalas workers. That is avg 40 lunch deliveries per person. That is a LOT more efficient than Uber drivers.
The Dabbawalas is more efficient because:
- built on top of public transit: dramatically lower cost, no need to pay for gas
- have a pre set schedule and demand / not on-demand: enable huge supply chain optimization.
>"The new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it."
Miniscule labor costs and scant workers rights.
The "gig" economy is simply replicating in the west what has already existed in highly stratified societies for generations now that wealth inequality has finally reached a point where it can be profitable.
I visited Pakistan a few years ago, my homeland, after some 20 years of being in the states.
I was being driven around by my 18 year old cousin. At some point, just completely randomly, some youngin' - I would estimate about 15 years of age, entered the car, in the backseat. My Urdu was a little off, I couldn't make out exactly what had happened, I assumed the guy was my cousin's friend.
No, it turns out he was just doing a chore for a few pennies.
It's the strangest fucking thing, dealing with these people. They're always there, just one command away. Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. But in that part of the world, if you look a certain way and dress a certain way, these folks will come to you for chores for a few pennies -- and they will almost present themselves as if they are lesser persons than you. And I would be speechless in those situations, I wouldn't know what to do or say. That properly fucked me in the head for a good while.
Nah Dabbawalas are unionized and they effectively have control over what to charge their customers. The costs are low because, unlike other food-delivery startups, they are able to make money because of their ability to execute a hub and spoke model. Since they operate only during lunch time, and serve dense residential and office locations in Mumbai, they are able to aggregate orders both temporally and spatially.
Havin a hub-and-spoke model is the only way to make money if you are a logistics company. Grubhub wrote a good bit about this in their investor letter. [1]
> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige. This can lead to perks like discounted mobile phone subscriptions and scholarships for a dabbawala’s children funded by organisations keen to be associated with the respected network.
> According to Sangle, the healthy-eating craze in India is good for dabbawalas as food companies are turning to them for delivery. Profits from these newer ventures are bumping the dabbawalas’ salaries up from 12,000 to 20,000 rupees a month, he says.
The labor is cheap but the work pays relatively well. As Hans Rosling says in his book _Factfulness_: things can be both bad and better.
For a nice introduction to the subject of Mumbai
Dabawallahs I would strongly recommend watching "The Lunchbox" [1] starring the late Irfan Khan. A great actor tragically taken from us at a relatively young age.
+1. A slow, naturalistic movie that's also conventionally entertaining. Plus, as a timely feature, one of the protagonists spends a bunch of time standing on crowded trains, sitting in a crowded office, and eating lunch in a crowded canteen.
While it is always good for executives to learn how long-established and well-run things work, it looks to me a lot in this system depends on the social context of Mumbai (or other big cities in India): big income disparity and the prevalence of stay at home domestic partners. I mean the first example in the article is a stock broker who has food delivered from home, cooked by their spouse.
Why would this work in countries with a set minimum wage, double income households, and restaurants that have to be able to maintain their margins after delivery fees (something that domestic partners do not have to do)?
It stars recently passed away actor Irrfan Khan, Nimrat Kaur (she's in Homeland), and Nawazuddin Siddiqui. They are among the finest from here. It has Max Richter's music and is on Indian Netflix (not sure about rest of the world).
> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige.
Similar to being a bicycle messenger. You could make $20 an hour if you're efficient, which is more than working at a big box chain or delivering for a ridesharing service, and it has prestige.
It arrives hot. It is prepared by your partner / parent / cook just the way you like / need it. It makes for a much more interesting conversation.
It is something Indians are used to from a fairly young age. Going to school, you'd take the lunch that mom made with you. Now that you're working.. providing for the family, you deserve an upgrade! :D
In Mumbai, the person working is likely to leave early (say before 7am). The person cooking (typically mom or spouse) gets to lunch later, around 10:30 and it gets delivered. Most Indian food is not great when eaten cold. This also avoids needing to buy and store vegetables since you can get to the market in the morning and buy what you need for the day.
This was also strange to me. I'm used to people bringing home made food with them to the office, then heating it up at lunch time and eating it. But I cannot imagine being sent a freshly cooked meal in the afternoon. Mind-blowing.
I think its a great question. There is a high cultural value in eating warm/freshly cooked meals. While you can get sandwiches even those have warm components (vada pav, grilled cheese etc). These meals are made in the late morning usually by a female member of the household and sent off.
"3.4 mistakes per million deliveries". There are lessons to be learned from these guys, but I think definition of a mistake and this stat in general is, well, flexible.
3.4 mistakes/million (also known as 3.4 DPMO = defects per million opportunities) is just a a statistic from a normal distribution. It comes from the Six-Sigma literature [1].
It's the number of rejects in a 6σ process, assuming a 1.5σ mean shift (1.5σ is an arbitrary assumption for a shift in a long-term process).
You can get a reasonable estimate through random sampling -- which is the basis for most of inferential statistics -- so it's not that flexible. If an adequately powered study was conducted (with a large enough sample size and sufficiently randomized sample), I don't see why the results can't be trusted [2]. A mistake is not that hard to classify (in logistics there are failure reason codes -- wrong address, wrong order, missed delivery, etc. and typically certain categories dominate -- the others are noise).
That said, 3.4 DPMO is kind of a magic number (sort of like 95% confidence intervals -- why 95%? Because Pearson or someone decided it and it stuck).
[2] Side: Systematic misreporting might be an issue of course, and there's not much that can be done there except design a system of incentives and penalties around it. Customer complaints and lost clients are often visible in such systems.
It would be interesting if someone makes a complaint portal for Dabba Walla and post some statistics on how many real complaints do you actually receive.
Moved to Thane, which is right next to Mumbai around six months ago.
Although not really related, but I get a good meal of my choice at roughly INR 70($1)/meal , and I can order in between snacks for a smaller price if needed. And I can stand their while it's cooked or not, all at the comfort of just going to an apartment that is next to mine. It's cheap, healthy and convenient. At my work place, I can't decide the food I want, and I pay 3 times more.
Yes, a fair amount of middle/lower-middle class women in big cities in India make some side cash with this system. Basically just cooking extra portions of lunch and dinner of whatever they're making that day anyway and feeding the busy single neighbours for a very reasonable amount.
Another point I might add:
Please factor in the rate of unemployment and the limited choices for labor when measuring the happiness of these "unskilled" workers.
I agree that we can learn a lesson of efficiency from these guys, but I don't agree that we can learn a lesson of cooperative society and sharing of dividends.
Lack of exposure means we rationalize the existing situation and convince ourselves that this is good. I'm sure there are some dabbawalas thinking "It is what it is. There are no other jobs available, so I might as well."
The Dabbawalas "secret" is: - built on top of public transit: dramatically lower cost, no need to pay for gas - have a pre set schedule and demand / not on-demand: enable huge supply chain optimization.
These 2 are the key differences between the dabbawalas and uber eats supply chains.
Uber can also does similar optimizations if they offer a lunch subscription service that u pre-book ur lunches.
- uses vanes to do batch pick up / drop off: restaurants (small van)-> local hub (large van)-> destination local hub -> final mile delivery on bike / foot.
This will provide efficient supply chain to keep cost down and reliable if theres enough demand.
However, demand might be low because US customers looking to save money are used to pack their own lunch and microwave at work. This is not an option in Mumbai because of crowed train in rush hour.
You can see it in their smile and hear it in their tone...these people take a rare sense of pride in their work. Dabbawalas appear to be a happy, grateful, and fulfilled workforce that do a sufficient job. Add in the cultural prestige and this model strikes me as very tough to compete with. So why?
What aspect of this current approach is broken or inefficient like to the point of justifying the time, money and effort to compete with as a startup? (I didn't gather that part from the article). Is it marginal food cost?
Is it merely because it's a big market operating the old-school way and therefore easy money is being thrown at trying to capture share or supplant using apps? No wonder these ventures are having a tough go at things...seems to me as a solution seeking a problem.
Nothing has to be broken for a startup or a big corp to attempt to make money themselves.
There's money to be made in offering choices - enough money to justify the expenditure in getting something new up and running, seemingly.
Speaking of solutions seeking a problem, early on in my career I was at a blockchain startup of sorts, though I have no idea what blockchain work they actually did. I got a few offers from other blockchain companies too, and I could never figure out what problem they were solving that a database wouldn't solve even better.
Of course, you know that this system is able to exist only because the office workers have odd food preferences, and the delivery people get paid like shit, and there's tons of people willing to do the job for such low wage?
If the alternative to having this service is me just carrying a small tin box along with me to work, what are the odds I'm going to shell out $10 each time if it were implemented in any country that has a Western minimum wage?
Everytime a story about India is posted the HN crowd picks apart the negatives of Indian society like caste or poverty. That's the first comment I see when I get here. Always.
STOP THIS!
If you want to focus on the negativity start a separate thread imagine every story about the valley bringing up it's inherent white privilege or racism as the first comment.
Criticism and counter points are the reason why I come here. Taking offense to criticism is how we regress as a society. It has nothing to do with racism except that its a construct in one's mind based on prior experiences, biases and taking excessive pride in one's identity/culture. One can still do that, but that should not mean the public is barred from criticism.
This article focuses on a delivery network powered by a large pool of cheap, unskilled labor. The role of poverty levels in India is very relevant to this topic. Your comment is also the only one that brings up caste.
[+] [-] Nextgrid|5 years ago|reply
> The delivery schedule also has built-in buffers. If a delivery is due at 13:00, the dabbawala will aim for around 12:00 [...] For every 15 to 20 dabbawalas there is also always someone on stand-by in case one of them gets delayed.
> At 12:45 a dabbawala races around the corner on a bike and rushes shouting into an office building. [...] The dabbawala was late by his own standards but the customer was probably never aware of the hiccup, he says.
> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige.
> And as a cooperative all dabbawalas are equal partners with supervisors called mukadams who are elected.
It seems like there's no major secret here. The key to achieving such things is... surprise surprise... treating your workers fairly and paying them well so they actually give a shit about their job, and feel appreciated and proud of what they do. The same would actually translate to many other industries.
The food delivery startups could achieve the same if they paid their delivery drivers fairly (at the moment most don't even make minimum wage - compared to the dabbawalas’ "good salary") instead of pissing away their money into marketing/advertising or into someone's pocket, whether greedy investors or "engineers" to build a blockchain-based, Kubernetes-powered microservices playground.
[+] [-] black_puppydog|5 years ago|reply
That would seem to make it pretty fundamentally incompatible with the wage extraction operations that are uber, deliveroo etc.
[+] [-] jjeaff|5 years ago|reply
Easier said than done.
Not that I disagree, but business models like these are difficult in more developed countries. It's the same reason you will find middle class people in many less developed countries with domestic staff. The wealth divide between the middle class and poor is so extreme in places like India, that you can afford to charge your regular customers enough money to pay poor employees a "good" wage. "Good" in this case is of course very relative. Relative to many other poor people that have no job at all.
[+] [-] Kalium|5 years ago|reply
A quick data check suggests that a software engineer in Mumbai can easily make literally ten times this "good salary". Would you consider paying food delivery workers in London 10% of an software engineer's pay packet a "good salary"? Fair treatment?
Some crude calculations on my part suggest that it would be well below minimum wage in the UK. Is it possible that there might be more going on than "good salary"? Other commenters point out that there's a deep gulf in expected living conditions that enables such a low level of pay to be a "good salary".
Taken together, these suggest to me that this is a model that exploits extreme poverty and inequality. One that perhaps we should be glad cannot be replicated in many other places.
[+] [-] on_and_off|5 years ago|reply
They could, but they do everything to give the perception that food delivery is cheap. UberEats takes a 30% cut of the restaurant price. Most of them don't increase their prices in response. They really should consider it (and fortunately, some do), it devalues their offering (and restaurants already work with razor thin margins).
Same thing for their drivers salaries. Better to drive it into the ground than paying them a living wage and see a slower adoption as a result.
Not sure the quotes around engineers are needed. I have zero sympathy for most of these companies but it is still an engineering challenge to do food delivery at scale.
[+] [-] searchableguy|5 years ago|reply
> good wage
That's unlivable wage.
Also, those companies you have listed pay more.
[+] [-] seemslegit|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] formatjam|5 years ago|reply
The Dabbawalas is more efficient because: - built on top of public transit: dramatically lower cost, no need to pay for gas - have a pre set schedule and demand / not on-demand: enable huge supply chain optimization.
[+] [-] mke|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] econcon|5 years ago|reply
1. If these guys pay taxes or charge GST on food delivered.
2. How many units they deliver each day
3. What the cost of delivery of each unit and what's the value of the food content?
[+] [-] aphextron|5 years ago|reply
Miniscule labor costs and scant workers rights.
The "gig" economy is simply replicating in the west what has already existed in highly stratified societies for generations now that wealth inequality has finally reached a point where it can be profitable.
[+] [-] pen2l|5 years ago|reply
I was being driven around by my 18 year old cousin. At some point, just completely randomly, some youngin' - I would estimate about 15 years of age, entered the car, in the backseat. My Urdu was a little off, I couldn't make out exactly what had happened, I assumed the guy was my cousin's friend.
No, it turns out he was just doing a chore for a few pennies.
It's the strangest fucking thing, dealing with these people. They're always there, just one command away. Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. But in that part of the world, if you look a certain way and dress a certain way, these folks will come to you for chores for a few pennies -- and they will almost present themselves as if they are lesser persons than you. And I would be speechless in those situations, I wouldn't know what to do or say. That properly fucked me in the head for a good while.
[+] [-] blueblisters|5 years ago|reply
Havin a hub-and-spoke model is the only way to make money if you are a logistics company. Grubhub wrote a good bit about this in their investor letter. [1]
[1] https://s2.q4cdn.com/772508021/files/doc_financials/2019/q3/...
[+] [-] konaraddi|5 years ago|reply
> A dabbawalas’ commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain prestige. This can lead to perks like discounted mobile phone subscriptions and scholarships for a dabbawala’s children funded by organisations keen to be associated with the respected network.
> According to Sangle, the healthy-eating craze in India is good for dabbawalas as food companies are turning to them for delivery. Profits from these newer ventures are bumping the dabbawalas’ salaries up from 12,000 to 20,000 rupees a month, he says.
The labor is cheap but the work pays relatively well. As Hans Rosling says in his book _Factfulness_: things can be both bad and better.
[+] [-] gjkood|5 years ago|reply
Beautiful movie. Enjoy.
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
[+] [-] papeda|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mynegation|5 years ago|reply
Why would this work in countries with a set minimum wage, double income households, and restaurants that have to be able to maintain their margins after delivery fees (something that domestic partners do not have to do)?
[+] [-] that_girl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] balladeer|5 years ago|reply
It stars recently passed away actor Irrfan Khan, Nimrat Kaur (she's in Homeland), and Nawazuddin Siddiqui. They are among the finest from here. It has Max Richter's music and is on Indian Netflix (not sure about rest of the world).
[+] [-] youeseh|5 years ago|reply
Similar to being a bicycle messenger. You could make $20 an hour if you're efficient, which is more than working at a big box chain or delivering for a ridesharing service, and it has prestige.
Source: https://www.breakawaycourier.com/news-and-blog/2011/8/3/how-...
[+] [-] russfink|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] youeseh|5 years ago|reply
It is something Indians are used to from a fairly young age. Going to school, you'd take the lunch that mom made with you. Now that you're working.. providing for the family, you deserve an upgrade! :D
[+] [-] vaidhy|5 years ago|reply
It makes life easier for all concerned.
[+] [-] thewarpaint|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] burner831234|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulkrush|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wenc|5 years ago|reply
It's the number of rejects in a 6σ process, assuming a 1.5σ mean shift (1.5σ is an arbitrary assumption for a shift in a long-term process).
You can get a reasonable estimate through random sampling -- which is the basis for most of inferential statistics -- so it's not that flexible. If an adequately powered study was conducted (with a large enough sample size and sufficiently randomized sample), I don't see why the results can't be trusted [2]. A mistake is not that hard to classify (in logistics there are failure reason codes -- wrong address, wrong order, missed delivery, etc. and typically certain categories dominate -- the others are noise).
That said, 3.4 DPMO is kind of a magic number (sort of like 95% confidence intervals -- why 95%? Because Pearson or someone decided it and it stuck).
[1] https://www.qualitygurus.com/why-is-6-sigma-equal-to-3-4-dpm...
[2] Side: Systematic misreporting might be an issue of course, and there's not much that can be done there except design a system of incentives and penalties around it. Customer complaints and lost clients are often visible in such systems.
[+] [-] econcon|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] namdnay|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Robinxd|5 years ago|reply
Although not really related, but I get a good meal of my choice at roughly INR 70($1)/meal , and I can order in between snacks for a smaller price if needed. And I can stand their while it's cooked or not, all at the comfort of just going to an apartment that is next to mine. It's cheap, healthy and convenient. At my work place, I can't decide the food I want, and I pay 3 times more.
[+] [-] spiderjerusalem|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] that_girl|5 years ago|reply
I agree that we can learn a lesson of efficiency from these guys, but I don't agree that we can learn a lesson of cooperative society and sharing of dividends.
Lack of exposure means we rationalize the existing situation and convince ourselves that this is good. I'm sure there are some dabbawalas thinking "It is what it is. There are no other jobs available, so I might as well."
[+] [-] that_girl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] formatjam|5 years ago|reply
Uber can also does similar optimizations if they offer a lunch subscription service that u pre-book ur lunches.
- uses vanes to do batch pick up / drop off: restaurants (small van)-> local hub (large van)-> destination local hub -> final mile delivery on bike / foot.
This will provide efficient supply chain to keep cost down and reliable if theres enough demand.
However, demand might be low because US customers looking to save money are used to pack their own lunch and microwave at work. This is not an option in Mumbai because of crowed train in rush hour.
[+] [-] _curious_|5 years ago|reply
You can see it in their smile and hear it in their tone...these people take a rare sense of pride in their work. Dabbawalas appear to be a happy, grateful, and fulfilled workforce that do a sufficient job. Add in the cultural prestige and this model strikes me as very tough to compete with. So why?
What aspect of this current approach is broken or inefficient like to the point of justifying the time, money and effort to compete with as a startup? (I didn't gather that part from the article). Is it marginal food cost?
Is it merely because it's a big market operating the old-school way and therefore easy money is being thrown at trying to capture share or supplant using apps? No wonder these ventures are having a tough go at things...seems to me as a solution seeking a problem.
[+] [-] sk0g|5 years ago|reply
There's money to be made in offering choices - enough money to justify the expenditure in getting something new up and running, seemingly.
Speaking of solutions seeking a problem, early on in my career I was at a blockchain startup of sorts, though I have no idea what blockchain work they actually did. I got a few offers from other blockchain companies too, and I could never figure out what problem they were solving that a database wouldn't solve even better.
[+] [-] mytailorisrich|5 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIDvr7NNwo
[+] [-] supernova87a|5 years ago|reply
If the alternative to having this service is me just carrying a small tin box along with me to work, what are the odds I'm going to shell out $10 each time if it were implemented in any country that has a Western minimum wage?
[+] [-] nyolfen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nine_zeros|5 years ago|reply
Why aren't there more co-operative businesses here? What stops taxi drivers or gig workers from forming a co-op with decent benefits?
[+] [-] fedede|5 years ago|reply
The difference is that one person delivers many dishes in a ride, so costs can be cut and wages can be higher.
It’s actually doing pretty well and expanding on many cities in the country.
[+] [-] citizenpaul|5 years ago|reply
Umm is this really a question? Near destitute poverty level wages and quality of life.
[+] [-] senthil_rajasek|5 years ago|reply
STOP THIS!
If you want to focus on the negativity start a separate thread imagine every story about the valley bringing up it's inherent white privilege or racism as the first comment.
[+] [-] fermienrico|5 years ago|reply
Criticism and counter points are the reason why I come here. Taking offense to criticism is how we regress as a society. It has nothing to do with racism except that its a construct in one's mind based on prior experiences, biases and taking excessive pride in one's identity/culture. One can still do that, but that should not mean the public is barred from criticism.
[+] [-] papeda|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lnreddy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ashleshbiradar|5 years ago|reply