On Reddit there are some pretty intense videos and other first-hand accounts of democratic-leaning lawmakers in Hong Kong being forcibly removed from government buildings. I’m surprised this isn’t getting more press. But also it’s pretty clear China is doing this now during coronavirus since the world has bigger things to care about at the moment
Some background on why this is happening; The legislature was supposed to elect a new chairman in October last year, pan-democratic lawmakers have been blocking this election by filibustering any meeting that tried to elect a new chairman.
The goal was to block this until the elections in September this year. About a month ago, China spoke out against this, and since then, the legislature has been trying to push this through. Evicted lawmakers tried to physical prevent this from happening, which is why they were removed from the room.
I don't really agree with the actions of both parties, but this is the back story. They weren't just forcefully removed out of nowhere, there were actions that led up to it.
I am a US citizen who resided in HK for 5 years, until this last December.
I think Hong Kongers' efforts to resist increasing Chinese encroachment, while admirable, are probably futile. They are simply too British. British culture is completely incompatible with any kind of successful resistance against a hostile government. They are too scared of weapons and (justified, defensive) violence to make Chinese occupation unviable. The absolute most extreme behavior we saw from protestors was thrown bricks and the occasional molotov cocktail. Almost none of the destruction was targeted at Chinese government facilities in HK - instead they went after easy HK-controlled targets like road equipment and the airport. This is not a winning strategy.
Yes, what’s happening on the street (the protests) and in the legislative council (the voting) may not be enough to resist China, but Hong Kong people recently are doing more, which is what prompted the harsh response from China, including the proposed changes outlined in this news article.
Hong Kong people realized that they could “vote” (express their opinions) by choosing what businesses they support: they could support businesses who support the protest. This economic circle [1] eventually could resist the control from China.
This could be substantial when Chinese economy is not
looking good, and when some businesses care about overseas market (think of the trade tariffs and the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019).
Non violent actions such as strikes brought us many human rights improvements such as 40 hour week and safety and health regulations. Many societies reformed after their citizens striked extensively. I'm curious why there's no sweeping strikes in Hong Kong yet?
To be fair I don't think they have a winning strategy available, so they're making the strongest move they can.
Armed insurrection of the type you're describing would just bring the PLA jackboots down on Hong Kong, and the rebels will join the Uyghurs in the camps. Sure there'd be some international backlash, but between backlash and losing Hong Kong, the CCP will choose the backlash. It's an existential issue for them.
The only way armed insurrection works is by creating a situation painful enough that, over time (years or decades), the leadership of the occupying force starts asking if the cost is worth it. The current CCP will always answer yes to that question.
I think US people are incredibly naive in thinking that they are going to oppose government military action with their personal guns. It won't work, the only difference will be many more dead.
Undoubtedly, the main reason Gandhi failed to achieve any substantial strides toward Indian independence was because he was too hesitant to deploy real guns and firepower.
They've been able to get away with whatever they wanted in Xinjiang because it has no bearing on their economy. But HK has ties to the west, and enough people old enough to remember something resembling liberal government.
HK's only play at this point seems to be the Northern Ireland strategy--be as ungovernable as possible, and rely on China having a bit of shame. I don't see that working, though--the UK in Northern Ireland had a reputation to maintain. I fear that turning HK into a prison camp would do to China's reputation exactly what they want it to do.
> the UK in Northern Ireland had a reputation to maintain
Evidently not much of a reputation. In this conflict alone, the British state (army and police) shot and killed unarmed protesters, supported paramilitary groups in extrajudicial assassinations (including an attempt on a sitting British politician), indefinitely interned people with no evidence, looked the other way from attacks they could stop (and at least on one occasion even explicitly chose a random civilian to kill instead) if it would protect a source, pursued a strategy for a while of force-feeding certain dissidents, and even made it a crime to display certain flags.
There were massive protests against British rule over the years too. Somehow viewing a colonial government as resembling a liberal government, seems rather incongruent to people who still have a living memory of British colonial rule across the world.
Any way the one country two systems was set to expire in 2047.
Point of fact, colonization by the British wasn't exactly 'liberal government'. Anywhere. In HK's case, they only got their limited democracy in the last couple years immediately before handover to China. The 150 years prior, not so much.
Back in the 1980s, while Thatcher and Reagan were preaching about freedom, british-ruled HK had less freedom than they do now under the bad guy commies.
EDIT: This is not to cheerlead a regression of rights in HK. I'm just saying that being an imperial subject, being brutally put down every few decades when revolting, that's not some liberal utopia.
Companies with significant ties to the US financial system and interests in Hong Kong need to start planning for the contingency that Hong Kong loses its special status under US law that treats it differently from mainland China.
The other day when HK leaders were dragged out of the legislative building was surreal. It's something that I would have thought would only be seen by a dictator in the developing world, not in one of the most advanced cities in the world. It only adds to the adage that freedom must be continually fought for.
More than that, Xi has been ginning up Chinese nationalist sentiment for months now as a way of distracting the Chinese populace from the economic hit they've taken/a supposed reason for their suffering. Hence all the conspiracy theories about COVID being starting by the US Army and such.
If they're going to start projecting that nationalist sentiment outward, Hong Kong is low-hanging fruit.
Weren't they signalling that this whole time? Weren't the civilized people of Hong Kong out in the streets by the millions protesting for sovereignty most of last year?
Anyway, It's amazing how much wealth and prosperity they're willing to erase for the control. Hong Kong's actual functioning legal system was a huge part of why it was the conduit to China for civilized nations; now what is there?
It is stated in the Sino-British Joint Declaration that "The [HKSAR] will be vested with executive, legislative and independent judicial power, including that of final adjudication." [1] So it's unclear how this can be legally imposed unilaterally on Hong Kong. That said, the proposed law appears to be one which the HK legislature is required to pass under Article 23 of the Basic Law, which states "The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organisations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organisations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organisations or bodies." [2]
The PRC is playing the long game. Decades from now, they'll take the ROC without firing a shot. It will be through economic integration leading to a vote.
I know plenty of businesses in Taiwan that set up factories right across the way in Xiamen. It's been well underway for the past 20 years.
I think this would lead to an actual war. Taiwan has weapons, its own military, etc. Hong Kong doesn't. There will be protests, however. Nevermind potential U.S. involvement.
A lot of people here are alluding to the fact that China is planning to invade Taiwan in a not so distant future. China wants to annex Taiwan, that's for sure, and I don't think they are trying too hard to conceal this intention. But military invasion means crossing a sea that is 130 km wide at its narrowest. Such an think can't happen if you don't own the sea and the skies. There are two ways to do that: you get a better Navy than the US Navy, or you get the US Navy to stay out of the way. The first one is all but impossible, while the second one is highly unlikely. The only realistic way for China to take over Taiwan is via a democratic process, by a charm offensive. This is many, many times more likely to happen than a military operation, but if it happens, then that's the will of the people.
Though presently Taiwan is ruled by the DPP who is pro-independence, the other major party which has been often in power, the Kuomintang generally tries to foster a "Chinese" identity rather than a "Taiwanese" one and have always had a vision of "Reunification" with China, eventually. So the political dynamic in Taiwan has a bearing on the matter.
I understand that HK was under British rule for a long time (I remember well when the hand over happened). But after the hand over I don't understand why HK was not treated just like any other Chinese region/province/state/district (I realize now that I don't know how China splits up it's country)? Why was HK granted special privileges that made it different than other parts of the country? To me it would be as if Kansas is allowed to do things totally different than the other 49 states, such as not pay federal income tax. Why would that kind of thing be allowed?
Capitalistic and free society Vs. "Communism" and suppressive society. The Sino-British Joint Declaration was to address these concern on merging such polarizing society together, which is giving HK a special status, different law (system), and autonomy (which doesnt exist anymore, 22 years into its 50 years treaty).
An earlier take-over is bound to happen unless the protests in Hong Kong manage to escalate to the national scale.
There will have been more public empathy in mainland for Hong Kong have people in Hong Kong in general been nicer to people visiting from mainland in the last 20 years instead of being so discriminative and unfriendly. And if there are more empathy, we will see protests as well as stronger public opinions among people in mainland favouring non interference in Hong Kong. And it will become an actual movement. And there will be actual changes. Let's not forget the protests in 1989 were started by mainland Chinese themselves and though it ended in the worst way possible it was not in vain. In many ways they had had positive impacts to the system and the overall human rights in China (though it still doesn't enjoy the same degrees of freedom as in the West).
People in Hong Kong as well as people in China should take this as a sociocultural lesson. If we want to change and improve the system, we need to unite. As much as the system is authoritarian the way the system works ultimately reflects how divided the people see themselves.
Time for democratic countries - those with genuinely free elections and an independent effective judiciary - to leave the UN and WTO and form their own global Democratic Freedom Organisation - with members benefiting from Free Trade, common standards, and in the long term, freedom of movement plus a supreme court. They should impose onerous tariffs on corrupt governments like the PRC and lower tariffs on countries progressing towards democracy and away from corruption. Some short term pain as supply chains are disrupted but would be a massive force for the good of humanity in the long run.
The better title is take external or alien control of HongKong.
Whilst pathetic most laws and bills have a process local in Hong Kong. Like a right wing paradise you not just have free market but also has essentially no government (police dare not to walk the street say) and no bill pass for months now. Even pandemics the response of the Gov is continue to open the border so the mainland Chinese can fly in and out of china. The public just on their own finding ways to get mask, making them and wearing them. On their own.
Now the china would bypass the local legislature to enact the law the local has opposed since 2004 with the 1st time million comes out again the security law.
Guess they want to as that law give mainland rights to institute their own force and likely their own legal procedure which unlike common law the accuser has to prove themselves innocent.
Good luck and with that gone Hk is ended. In the past we at least may know. Now we may not. Just no idea if you are in mainland why Hk stock market drop 5% in friday, the largest drop in last 5 years.
When the law is enacted bypassing your constitution (see all us, uk+2, and even the Eu Announcement), you are done.
What to do if you are Jews under nazi. Unlike USA to Jews, there is nowhere to go as the law actually covered any HKER in the world. We know they will enforce it in spite of you are outside china. It is a bigger country than North Korea.
Not that I'm arguing for China but that was always the case since the takover right? I mean that it will happen before 2047 or sooner as a part of a gradual change
>In accordance with the "one country, two systems" principle agreed between the UK and China, the socialist system of China would not be practised in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR), and Hong Kong's previous capitalist system and its way of life would remain unchanged for a period of 50 years until 2047 [0]
There was a huge wave of immigration from HK in the 90s because of this. Children of these families resented their parents. Hopefully, this vindicates the parents.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was another wave of immigration away from HK. Of course, the poor and uneducated are trapped.
Yes, and we all knew this was coming...then. In the events of the past few months, however, the UK appealed to China to keep their word, and the response that this was no longer a British concern. So we know they intend to do whatever they can.
[+] [-] OkGoDoIt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] woutr_be|5 years ago|reply
The goal was to block this until the elections in September this year. About a month ago, China spoke out against this, and since then, the legislature has been trying to push this through. Evicted lawmakers tried to physical prevent this from happening, which is why they were removed from the room.
I don't really agree with the actions of both parties, but this is the back story. They weren't just forcefully removed out of nowhere, there were actions that led up to it.
[+] [-] hker|5 years ago|reply
[1]: https://hongkongfp.com/2020/05/08/shocking-unlawful-illegiti...
[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zxtYUFl5Hg
[+] [-] centimeter|5 years ago|reply
I think Hong Kongers' efforts to resist increasing Chinese encroachment, while admirable, are probably futile. They are simply too British. British culture is completely incompatible with any kind of successful resistance against a hostile government. They are too scared of weapons and (justified, defensive) violence to make Chinese occupation unviable. The absolute most extreme behavior we saw from protestors was thrown bricks and the occasional molotov cocktail. Almost none of the destruction was targeted at Chinese government facilities in HK - instead they went after easy HK-controlled targets like road equipment and the airport. This is not a winning strategy.
[+] [-] hker|5 years ago|reply
Hong Kong people realized that they could “vote” (express their opinions) by choosing what businesses they support: they could support businesses who support the protest. This economic circle [1] eventually could resist the control from China.
This could be substantial when Chinese economy is not looking good, and when some businesses care about overseas market (think of the trade tariffs and the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019).
[1]: https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/how-the-yellow-economic-circ...
[+] [-] runawaybottle|5 years ago|reply
It just takes serious dedication, but the current world has a lot more tools in place to broadcast the narrative.
Those Hong Kong protests can never stop.
[+] [-] theseadroid|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carapace|5 years ago|reply
Wat?
I mean, do you count the Revolution? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution
[+] [-] jldugger|5 years ago|reply
It worked for the Americans somehow.
edit: and for that matter, it almost worked for cromwell.
[+] [-] lawrenceyan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scottLobster|5 years ago|reply
Armed insurrection of the type you're describing would just bring the PLA jackboots down on Hong Kong, and the rebels will join the Uyghurs in the camps. Sure there'd be some international backlash, but between backlash and losing Hong Kong, the CCP will choose the backlash. It's an existential issue for them.
The only way armed insurrection works is by creating a situation painful enough that, over time (years or decades), the leadership of the occupying force starts asking if the cost is worth it. The current CCP will always answer yes to that question.
[+] [-] tensor|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbay808|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ezVoodoo|5 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj0XUN7hJXY&list=PLoR2eeftuk...
And they don't hesitate to beat up a girl either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I55gRzacm-0&list=PLoR2eeftuk...
[+] [-] ghostpepper|5 years ago|reply
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-sign...
The headlines are different as well:
China signals plan to take full control of Hong Kong
vs
China to impose sweeping national security law in Hong Kong, bypassing city’s legislature
[+] [-] koenigdavidmj|5 years ago|reply
HK's only play at this point seems to be the Northern Ireland strategy--be as ungovernable as possible, and rely on China having a bit of shame. I don't see that working, though--the UK in Northern Ireland had a reputation to maintain. I fear that turning HK into a prison camp would do to China's reputation exactly what they want it to do.
[+] [-] vinay427|5 years ago|reply
Evidently not much of a reputation. In this conflict alone, the British state (army and police) shot and killed unarmed protesters, supported paramilitary groups in extrajudicial assassinations (including an attempt on a sitting British politician), indefinitely interned people with no evidence, looked the other way from attacks they could stop (and at least on one occasion even explicitly chose a random civilian to kill instead) if it would protect a source, pursued a strategy for a while of force-feeding certain dissidents, and even made it a crime to display certain flags.
[+] [-] billfruit|5 years ago|reply
Any way the one country two systems was set to expire in 2047.
[+] [-] petre|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] free_rms|5 years ago|reply
Back in the 1980s, while Thatcher and Reagan were preaching about freedom, british-ruled HK had less freedom than they do now under the bad guy commies.
EDIT: This is not to cheerlead a regression of rights in HK. I'm just saying that being an imperial subject, being brutally put down every few decades when revolting, that's not some liberal utopia.
[+] [-] ENOTTY|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Medicalidiot|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] runawaybottle|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scottLobster|5 years ago|reply
If they're going to start projecting that nationalist sentiment outward, Hong Kong is low-hanging fruit.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] microcolonel|5 years ago|reply
Anyway, It's amazing how much wealth and prosperity they're willing to erase for the control. Hong Kong's actual functioning legal system was a huge part of why it was the conduit to China for civilized nations; now what is there?
[+] [-] Proven|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ezVoodoo|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] DonaldFisk|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Basic_Law_Article_23
[+] [-] amelius|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] altgeek|5 years ago|reply
I know plenty of businesses in Taiwan that set up factories right across the way in Xiamen. It's been well underway for the past 20 years.
[+] [-] ericmay|5 years ago|reply
It's so tragic.
[+] [-] credit_guy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] billfruit|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justaguy88|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] irrational|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AnimalMuppet|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] av_engr|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] archibaldJ|5 years ago|reply
There will have been more public empathy in mainland for Hong Kong have people in Hong Kong in general been nicer to people visiting from mainland in the last 20 years instead of being so discriminative and unfriendly. And if there are more empathy, we will see protests as well as stronger public opinions among people in mainland favouring non interference in Hong Kong. And it will become an actual movement. And there will be actual changes. Let's not forget the protests in 1989 were started by mainland Chinese themselves and though it ended in the worst way possible it was not in vain. In many ways they had had positive impacts to the system and the overall human rights in China (though it still doesn't enjoy the same degrees of freedom as in the West).
People in Hong Kong as well as people in China should take this as a sociocultural lesson. If we want to change and improve the system, we need to unite. As much as the system is authoritarian the way the system works ultimately reflects how divided the people see themselves.
[+] [-] garyclarke27|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rorykoehler|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ngcc_hk|5 years ago|reply
Whilst pathetic most laws and bills have a process local in Hong Kong. Like a right wing paradise you not just have free market but also has essentially no government (police dare not to walk the street say) and no bill pass for months now. Even pandemics the response of the Gov is continue to open the border so the mainland Chinese can fly in and out of china. The public just on their own finding ways to get mask, making them and wearing them. On their own.
Now the china would bypass the local legislature to enact the law the local has opposed since 2004 with the 1st time million comes out again the security law.
Guess they want to as that law give mainland rights to institute their own force and likely their own legal procedure which unlike common law the accuser has to prove themselves innocent.
Good luck and with that gone Hk is ended. In the past we at least may know. Now we may not. Just no idea if you are in mainland why Hk stock market drop 5% in friday, the largest drop in last 5 years.
When the law is enacted bypassing your constitution (see all us, uk+2, and even the Eu Announcement), you are done.
What to do if you are Jews under nazi. Unlike USA to Jews, there is nowhere to go as the law actually covered any HKER in the world. We know they will enforce it in spite of you are outside china. It is a bigger country than North Korea.
Fight. See you.
[+] [-] gok|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alphawong|5 years ago|reply
So, the fact is that another East Berlin has been set up. Let see how many tragedies like East Berlin will be replayed.
[+] [-] haunter|5 years ago|reply
>In accordance with the "one country, two systems" principle agreed between the UK and China, the socialist system of China would not be practised in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR), and Hong Kong's previous capitalist system and its way of life would remain unchanged for a period of 50 years until 2047 [0]
0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration
[+] [-] chaostheory|5 years ago|reply
I wouldn't be surprised if there was another wave of immigration away from HK. Of course, the poor and uneducated are trapped.
[+] [-] koenigdavidmj|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djohnston|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] naringas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevespang|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]