I'm personally more concerned with keeping CS as a study of the science of computing rather than adapting it to improve the job prospects of students. My feeling is that really so many people going into CS aren't looking to study the science. They're going for software engineer/architecture/analyst jobs that make them a decent salary.
Some of us went into computer science out of genuine interest in one of the most revolutionary sciences in our lifetime. If it hurts our job prospects, well, that's part of the sacrifice.
I think what we need to do is ask CompSci students what they're wanting to achieve after school. Universities need to offer (and encourage) a broader selection of software development degrees (software engineering, business software, etc) rather than try to dilute CS to be all businessy. I know some schools offer more, but I'm not sure they set student expectations appropriately. Businesses (maybe even more importantly) need to learn how to ask for the degrees/expertise they actually want rather than asking for CS all the time for every software engineering job.
If you're reading this and making hiring decisions-- you can help by changing the wording in your job postings. Stop asking specifically for CS degrees when you really just need someone with a degree who can hack with the best of them.
Kids these days don't want to be programmers, they all want to be "Certified Enterprise Solutions Architects" and whatnot.
Think about it, when was the last time you saw "programmer" as a job title? At the very minimum now it's "developer" or "software engineer". No-one actually wants to get their hands dirty with code. And I'll tell you why: in today's modern culture, nothing is right or wrong. Lines, boxes and clouds on a whiteboard and just someone's opinion, no more valid than anyone elses. But code, that requires you to say "this is right" and "this is wrong". Kids these days can't face the pressure of making definitive statements.
Have you seen consultants from overseas in an internal IT dept? I think this is total ____, and it sounds like another PR ploy to lobby a raise for the visa quota. I work for one of the investment banks, and I would say a low ball estimate is 25%-30% of the back office IT, is visa related individuals in the US (either consultants or internal hires), not to mention the "24 hour" teams they like to implement with India. I don't have a problem with companies needing to import talent at all, but I do have a problem with companies driving the wages down by using these excuses of a lack of talent. Subsequently, paying these people below US market value. If a shortage was the case, companies should pay a premium of something in the ballpark of 10% more, because of the "lack" of demand. Instead, they look at this as a cost saving tool. It's so blatant, and its so obvious, just work in the back office of Wall St. for a month, and you will agree. I wonder what it's like on the west coast.
It seems like what IT really wants is trade school graduates. Someone who should be going to DeVry to learn the J2EE stack or .Net and is only doing so for the paycheck, not genuine interest in software development.
When I was in college (1996-2001), I would say an overwhelming majority of the CS students were there solely for all those tech jobs that their parents read about. They were only interested in learning something for either a grade in class or that someone might hire them to do it. Really, trade schools should be handling those types of people.
It seems like what IT really wants is trade school graduates.
No. What IT really wants is "problem solvers".
It doesn't matter what technologies you learned at college, high school, trade school, or from books. Whatever it is, it won't be enough anyway. You'll be expected to get to work, use what you know, and pick up what you have to. For the rest of your life.
More importantly, you will be expected to understand abstract ideas (people and tech), break down complex issues, develop effective work habits, and communicate intellegently with many different types of people. Aren't these exactly the type of things that college is for?
I see the current problems with the financial markets have already had much impact on CS/software hire, especially in London. I hope this is not a return to the bad days of UK CS job prospects, circa 2001-2002, after the internet bubble burst and 9/11.
Back then even very proficient students at leading universities had hard time finding jobs. These were people who did programming outside of uni courses, had good summer work experiences, built multi-threaded distributed desktop apps as well as web apps, and were actual 'problem solvers' with good skills in mathematic modeling and algorithm design and architectural design skills. However there was simply no market, regardless of how good they were.
Now, it seems as courses get diluted it really only harms all parties concerned and I often think the best thing someone with good A-levels should do is go directly into industry or in a startup/SME atleast before going to uni.
2001-2002 wasn't bad. I know it seemed that way but it really wasn't.
1990-1994 was frickin' nuclear winter for (almost?) all engineering in (almost?) all western nations. Senior staff in many offices would be left reading newspapers at their desks (superb people with no contracts and nothing to do) and there were extremely few junior positions to be filled. Any work which brought in food and paid rent was welcome, and most of that was stuff I never thought I'd see with a degree.
On the flip-side: After surviving that, bootstrapping a company from scratch was a breeze.
I would estimate that the vast majority of IT jobs are not programming-related. Most are in technical support and admin. And an employer is just as likely (maybe more likely) to employ a liberal arts graduate to do technical support, as hire a graduate of a computing-related subject. I've worked in several smallish companies (circa 500 employees), where I was the only person in IT who had a computing-related degree. Furthermore, I was the only one who had any interest in IT per se, and the only one who had any knowledge of IT beyond what was required to do the job (even in that knowledge some of them were woefully ignorant). The truth of the matter is that there is a wide gulf between a university education and what employers actually want/need.
It will be funny when doctors and lawyers are outsourced. Programming was outsourced not because it is an easy profession but because it was the entire profession that enabled outsourcing, and so was looked onto as magical by people who had never seen computers or had as good a way to make a living before.
But there's really no reason why outsourcing will be limited to manufacturing and IT, especially as the kids of the 3rd world IT specialists grow up and choose new professions for themselves. You really only need surgeons, dentists, nurses, and pill dispensing machines on shore. American law books and internal medicine facts can be studied very well off-shore, and trials and meetings can be held via online video. Everything would be digital and operate even faster than ever before. Nurses would have two main specialties, consisting of taking care of the old and taking a patient's vitals for off-shore doctors and computers that are good at predicting events and prescribing solutions, to calculate.
This would also reduce the costs of healthcare for everybody. ;)
Without wanting to start a debate about licensing, unionisation and so on, I expect that to take decades. Much of the enabling technology is here now, but the medical and legal industries have decades (or even centuries) of experience in limiting entry to their industry and thereby maintaining high wages... er, I mean, "high standards". They won't let this happen without a PR war on whichever government is "allowing it to happen".
Indeed. What bothers me especially is that these comments are made by managers with combinations of elite business degrees and experience which will enable them never to be limited in the kind of work they do. And yet, they are practically demanding that CS students be neatly packed turn-key packages that can do no more and no less than what is required of them in typical business programming roles. "Limited career prospects" cannot begin to explain what I see in this scheme of things.
> The figures point to the brutal reality behind technology companies’ complaints that universities are not tailoring their computer science degrees sufficiently to meet business needs.
This is idiocy. Computer science has as much to do with their business needs as pharmacists have to do with biology. That's why biologists have figured out how to make separate programs for them.
I really wonder how this can happen in the UK. Here in Switzerland it's the opposite. We have only like 300-400 people a year graduating with a CS degree and 2-3k jobs open. It's a real crisis, and companies are outsourcing to anywhere. Not to save costs, but because they simply can't find people.
In my school ETH Zurich, in 2000 there were over 300 people starting CS, this year it was less than 100.
I think salaries just have to continue raising until they meet bankers so that engineering and CS starts getting attractive again...
At dinner, we were discussing European countries that we might consider moving to. My friend mentioned that Switzerland is one of the hardest countries to get a work permit and later residency (ten years uninterrupted). I immediately started to wonder if the Switzerland IT job surplus is due to their pretty restrictive immigration policies, to say nothing of the notorious cleanliness standards (that you must adhere to when selling your home)
The quality (and curriculum) of comp sci courses in the UK varies dramatically. I know of Comp Sci graduates who don't know how to program. I also know of Comp Sci courses that don't expose the students to anything like client engagement or general business skills.
Another question worth asking is what exactly is an 'IT Job'? From the sounds of things the IBM chap wants a Comp Sci degree to mean an IT Consultancy Degree. How useful that would be to some other business that wants really good developers is another matter.
This seems to be a improbably high number. I live in Germany, and here the unemployment rate for CS graduates is among the lowest of any education, with the prognosis still being very good. Do any of you who live in the US or UK have had problems finding a job when you were searching for one?
It's not improbable at all. When I graduated (2002), I knew a few people who had a lot of trouble finding a job. They got killed on interviews with questions like "have you done any programming outside of class?", "what is the complexity of insert on a vector?" and "what is your preferred unix shell?" (note: resume had unix skills).
Eventually, they would up getting either non-computer related jobs or being hired by clueless PHBs. There are some BAD programmers out there. 10% would not surprise me.
There's a rider to that headline. The effect is in UK, not the US. Here in the US, I do find that in the entry-level employers are more than willing to recruit people who get on-the-job training.
I actually learnt more outside my CS course, experimenting in my own time, than on it. People should be encouraged to experiment more in education and not spoon-fed.
[+] [-] thorax|18 years ago|reply
Some of us went into computer science out of genuine interest in one of the most revolutionary sciences in our lifetime. If it hurts our job prospects, well, that's part of the sacrifice.
I think what we need to do is ask CompSci students what they're wanting to achieve after school. Universities need to offer (and encourage) a broader selection of software development degrees (software engineering, business software, etc) rather than try to dilute CS to be all businessy. I know some schools offer more, but I'm not sure they set student expectations appropriately. Businesses (maybe even more importantly) need to learn how to ask for the degrees/expertise they actually want rather than asking for CS all the time for every software engineering job.
If you're reading this and making hiring decisions-- you can help by changing the wording in your job postings. Stop asking specifically for CS degrees when you really just need someone with a degree who can hack with the best of them.
[+] [-] gaius|18 years ago|reply
Think about it, when was the last time you saw "programmer" as a job title? At the very minimum now it's "developer" or "software engineer". No-one actually wants to get their hands dirty with code. And I'll tell you why: in today's modern culture, nothing is right or wrong. Lines, boxes and clouds on a whiteboard and just someone's opinion, no more valid than anyone elses. But code, that requires you to say "this is right" and "this is wrong". Kids these days can't face the pressure of making definitive statements.
[+] [-] kp212|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] umjames|18 years ago|reply
When I was in college (1996-2001), I would say an overwhelming majority of the CS students were there solely for all those tech jobs that their parents read about. They were only interested in learning something for either a grade in class or that someone might hire them to do it. Really, trade schools should be handling those types of people.
[+] [-] edw519|18 years ago|reply
No. What IT really wants is "problem solvers".
It doesn't matter what technologies you learned at college, high school, trade school, or from books. Whatever it is, it won't be enough anyway. You'll be expected to get to work, use what you know, and pick up what you have to. For the rest of your life.
More importantly, you will be expected to understand abstract ideas (people and tech), break down complex issues, develop effective work habits, and communicate intellegently with many different types of people. Aren't these exactly the type of things that college is for?
[+] [-] babul|18 years ago|reply
Back then even very proficient students at leading universities had hard time finding jobs. These were people who did programming outside of uni courses, had good summer work experiences, built multi-threaded distributed desktop apps as well as web apps, and were actual 'problem solvers' with good skills in mathematic modeling and algorithm design and architectural design skills. However there was simply no market, regardless of how good they were.
Now, it seems as courses get diluted it really only harms all parties concerned and I often think the best thing someone with good A-levels should do is go directly into industry or in a startup/SME atleast before going to uni.
[+] [-] tom_rath|18 years ago|reply
1990-1994 was frickin' nuclear winter for (almost?) all engineering in (almost?) all western nations. Senior staff in many offices would be left reading newspapers at their desks (superb people with no contracts and nothing to do) and there were extremely few junior positions to be filled. Any work which brought in food and paid rent was welcome, and most of that was stuff I never thought I'd see with a degree.
On the flip-side: After surviving that, bootstrapping a company from scratch was a breeze.
[+] [-] coolestuk|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vlad|18 years ago|reply
But there's really no reason why outsourcing will be limited to manufacturing and IT, especially as the kids of the 3rd world IT specialists grow up and choose new professions for themselves. You really only need surgeons, dentists, nurses, and pill dispensing machines on shore. American law books and internal medicine facts can be studied very well off-shore, and trials and meetings can be held via online video. Everything would be digital and operate even faster than ever before. Nurses would have two main specialties, consisting of taking care of the old and taking a patient's vitals for off-shore doctors and computers that are good at predicting events and prescribing solutions, to calculate.
This would also reduce the costs of healthcare for everybody. ;)
[+] [-] esja|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] menloparkbum|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wynand|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andreyf|18 years ago|reply
This is idiocy. Computer science has as much to do with their business needs as pharmacists have to do with biology. That's why biologists have figured out how to make separate programs for them.
[+] [-] flavio87|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wallflower|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|17 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] menloparkbum|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kenshi|18 years ago|reply
Another question worth asking is what exactly is an 'IT Job'? From the sounds of things the IBM chap wants a Comp Sci degree to mean an IT Consultancy Degree. How useful that would be to some other business that wants really good developers is another matter.
[+] [-] ulf|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|18 years ago|reply
Eventually, they would up getting either non-computer related jobs or being hired by clueless PHBs. There are some BAD programmers out there. 10% would not surprise me.
[+] [-] sealedidentity|18 years ago|reply
That said, I hope they find decent jobs.
[+] [-] babul|18 years ago|reply