The word "effective" is used in a misleading way in a huge number of cancer studies. Reducing disease progression is not a particularly good metric of "effectiveness", even less so in mice models. What you want to see is a measure of overall survival (i.e. you survived cancer but died of something else because your health declined overall, making your survival moot) and a measure of quality of life, which is often completely ignored. The gap from "tumors regressed in mice" to the measures I just listed is so astronomically huge as to make these kinds of studies almost entirely unexciting.
Another commenter pointed out that one of the paper's authors, Valter Longo, has already written a number of books on intermittent fasting. While I think it's great when scientist publish in a form that is more accessible to the public, it's important to note that he was strongly invested in promoting intermittent fasting prior to this research being done, even to the point of selling a $300 mail order diet.
I think the reason this "entirely unexciting" study is getting attention is related to one of its author's having a talent for self-promotion.
I imagine that would make it harder to compare against how it could potentially work for humans. Humans have many medications that they can take to fix side effects that might arise from this, including side effects that can result in death or lower quality of life. Like, inflammation can be fixed with anti-inflammation medication. Not a biologist, but probably you’re expecting too much from mice trials because it seems very much like early drug discoveries compared to human trials.
Apparently when fasting (or fasting mimicing) our bodies start burning fat cells, removing old unused white blood cells, generating stem cells, and a lot more. In a study with monkeys, the group that was fed 25% fewer calories ended up living a lot longer and having fewer diseases. Longo advocates doing a fast-like diet for a week twice a year in healthy people and potentially more for people with certain health issues.
Dr. Longo's research and books have been very informative on fasting. I have no ties to the for profit side of his research but I've tried a few rounds of ProLon, which is a fasting mimicking diet founded from his research. I've experienced great short and more sustained results from using it. I generally approach the work week at a split of 18/6 for IF and don't eat after 8:00P anymore. It will be great to see more research into IF for longer term studies.
This was done in mice. It would be nice if they had included that in the original title. Fasting seems to always have amazing advantages in mice, but we need more studies done on humans. There seem to be advantages for humans as well but the results are usually not as impressive and we need more data.
The nice thing about this treatment is that testing should be a bit easier. Not really dangerous in a controlled setting, and if you find someone who is early stages of cancer then if it isn't effective you can switch to a known treatment.
Ever since I watched Bret Weinstein explain the problem with using today's lab mice[1], I've been more cautious about any results involving mice and cancer.
Yeah this is excellent. I wish he would produce more of this content, rather than his diet-right "mAh FrEeSpeCh" normie political commentary. I've actually heard he was an excellent evo-bio professor by former students. What a waste, but I guess it's cool he gets to hang out with Rogan now, so good for him I suppose.
This is purely anecdotal: My friend’s dad has bladder cancer. When he found out two years ago, he fasted for a month, and is now on a high nutrient, low calorie diet. He is still alive (and he has lost weight), I don’t know what affect other treatments have had, but his diet changes certainly have not hurt him.
These kind of articles need to be nuanced or we’ll end up with conclusions such as “fasting cures cancer”.
The role of cellular autophagy is not that clear: it can promote mammary and pancreatic cancerous cells survival but on the other hand its inhibition promotes the development of lymphoma for instance.
Apoptosis can likely have a symmetrical role.
It isn’t clear neither that this behaviour is consistent across all development stages of given cancers.
David H. Freedman lists "Eleven Simple Never-Fail Rules for Not Being Misled by Experts". One is:
>"It's supported by ... animal studies. ... I recommend treating as interesting fantasies any claims for human health or behavior that are based entirely on animal studies."<
> For vitamin C experiments, mice undergoing standard feeding or at the last day of the first FMD cycle started to be treated with vitamin C (4 g/kg in saline) via intraperitoneal injection twice a day, every day until the end of the experiment. At least 6–8 h have elapsed between the two administrations in each day.
EDIT: 4 g/kg twice a day is about 400 grams (0.88 pounds) of Vitamin C per day for a 50 kg (110 pound) person. 1 gram per day is a good rule of thumb for the upper limit of oral supplementation.
[+] [-] TaupeRanger|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrfredward|5 years ago|reply
I think the reason this "entirely unexciting" study is getting attention is related to one of its author's having a talent for self-promotion.
[+] [-] elif|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Glench|5 years ago|reply
Apparently when fasting (or fasting mimicing) our bodies start burning fat cells, removing old unused white blood cells, generating stem cells, and a lot more. In a study with monkeys, the group that was fed 25% fewer calories ended up living a lot longer and having fewer diseases. Longo advocates doing a fast-like diet for a week twice a year in healthy people and potentially more for people with certain health issues.
[+] [-] windexh8er|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cinntaile|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goda90|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dh303|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] k2xl|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://youtu.be/ve4q-1D_Ajo
[+] [-] BlackCherry|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] s9w|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vegetablepotpie|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deegles|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jojobas|5 years ago|reply
What if it's fasting + being cold + Vitamin F + whatever new thing your molecular simulation just suggested?
[+] [-] rq1|5 years ago|reply
The role of cellular autophagy is not that clear: it can promote mammary and pancreatic cancerous cells survival but on the other hand its inhibition promotes the development of lymphoma for instance.
Apoptosis can likely have a symmetrical role.
It isn’t clear neither that this behaviour is consistent across all development stages of given cancers.
[+] [-] apotheon|5 years ago|reply
What?
[+] [-] giardini|5 years ago|reply
"Wrong: Why Experts Keep Failing Us"*
David H. Freedman lists "Eleven Simple Never-Fail Rules for Not Being Misled by Experts". One is:
>"It's supported by ... animal studies. ... I recommend treating as interesting fantasies any claims for human health or behavior that are based entirely on animal studies."<
[+] [-] Havoc|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] api|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Legogris|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vmchale|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xutopia|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sradman|5 years ago|reply
> For vitamin C experiments, mice undergoing standard feeding or at the last day of the first FMD cycle started to be treated with vitamin C (4 g/kg in saline) via intraperitoneal injection twice a day, every day until the end of the experiment. At least 6–8 h have elapsed between the two administrations in each day.
EDIT: 4 g/kg twice a day is about 400 grams (0.88 pounds) of Vitamin C per day for a 50 kg (110 pound) person. 1 gram per day is a good rule of thumb for the upper limit of oral supplementation.
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16243-3.pdf#page=...
[+] [-] PudgePacket|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmargerum|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] text70|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dennis_jeeves|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fierarul|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tadhgf|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] missosoup|5 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice
[+] [-] Markoff|5 years ago|reply