As an Indian student who tried to get through the "system", I can relate to this. I was really into computers and programming in high school, so I decided to go into the engineering stream in the "+2" years (basically, 11th and 12th grades, as opposed to the biology stream, which supposedly preps you for medical school). I remember the parental and peer pressure particularly well: my dad was pretty much opposed to it because he felt taking biology would "lead to more options later", but I was not convinced. Most of my friends suffered through the biology classes, and yet ended up in engineering degrees at college (and for the most part, are working at either Infosys or Wipro now. No one is doing anything even remotely related to medicine.)
The last few years of high school was basically hell for me: the government subsidies OP's article mentions are limited just for the biggies (IITs and RECs), and the chances of getting into them are very slim. You have to get through series of examinations that over the years have gotten very _very_ tough: they basically expect you to know things in Physics, Chemistry and Math that - atleast in the US - are not taught till the third year of college. Forget about high school - I went to IIT coaching centers, and was very miserable because I had no real interest in any of the subjects - I wanted to learn CS, dammit - why was I mugging up organic chem formulae?
Its not even worth it to consider joining other colleges. Job options are limited, but the worst part is they all require huge "donations" upfront for a laughable experience (both in terms of the teaching talent and curriculum).
Long story short, I didn't end up getting a sufficiently high ranking in the entrance exams (my choices in the placement, if I remember right, were either metallurgy in IIT or mechanical engineering in REC: the top 400 had basically grabbed up all the CS degrees. Remember: over 400,000 students write the exam every year, so almost everyone ends up in a field they're not interested in.) so I decided to take a huge student loan and come study in the US. I don't regret the decision: I'm now doing what I love, and have gotten _so_ much more exposure than my peers back home it's not even funny.
When I went back to India to do an internship (and enjoy the vacation) a couple of years back, I was appalled by how little enthusiasm most people have about the work they'd end up doing.
The problems of entrance exams are obvious, but you are not being fair - when you say, why did I had to mug organic formulae? Isn't that kinda, how everywhere? If all I want is to do - MS in CS from some top US university, why
do I have to mug that word list for GRE?
> was very miserable because I had no real interest in any of the subjects
You had no interest in Physics & Mathematics? You can hardly blame people who set JEE questions, you don't expect them to ask to write C programs for the entrance exams, do you? Given, myriad subjects that are being taught at +2 level, only physics, chemistry & mathematics are universally taught across India. And the way I see it, It makes sense to ask questions from those subjects.
>When I went back to India to do an internship (and enjoy the vacation) a couple of years back, I was appalled by how little enthusiasm most people have about the work they'd end up doing.
Again, even in US, "most" people have very little enthusiasm towards work they are doing. But I believe, your story is little anecdotal too. Every one of my friend whom I know socially in Bangalore today, are programming their ass off. They work on weekends, on side projects, start up ideas or open source stuff. I understand, my experience is anecdotal too. But again, if you are willing to look beyond IT services, there are people who genuinely love programming, I guess thats how the case everywhere, pretty much.
I can relate to you but I did take up CompSci in 11th and 12th grades and was pushed by my parents to stick to what I wanted (lucky). They had probably noticed that I was spending too much time on the computer trying to create something or just tinker with it.
Joined Info Science engg later. But I've been disappointed since. I had to scrape through chem, physics and civil subjects (compulsory common subjects at my university for all first years). Rote learning is encouraged instead of practical work. Hiring is based on grades and not the ability to create/solve.
In most families joining startups is frowned upon for a funny reason. I had convinced my mom about startups and why they were the coolest places to work at. But a friend of her's turned up at our house, and asked me as to how I expect my mom to answer when a prospective bride's parents ask her about my place of work (it seems that I should be working at a popular place). I had to tell her in simpler words - I don't want to be the replace-able guy working in a cubicle knocking at the keyboard all day. and told her startups don't have cubicles and have a t-shirt culture. End of chapter ;)
People seem to care a lot about `social status` which is measured by money. The remedy would be to start to care about how the money is made rather than the money itself (it's difficult to totally eliminate it since people see social status as a measure of your value).
Being an Indian and a former student myself, I can't relate enough to OP's article or to your comment. I took up biology in +2, because my mom insisted it would "lead to more options later" even though I wanted to take up Computer Science (Yes my +2 college had that as an option). But I didn't get to. And I regret that decision even now.
I ended up studying something I didn't like in Engineering and didn't get good grades. I failed in a few exams. As shown in the movie 3 idiots, I did get selected in 2 companies after Engineering, but due to those failed exams, they ended up not giving me an offer letter even though I had got selected among a group of 3000(me and 12 others had gotten selected.) And my classmates who memorized everything in the textbooks got a high salaried job. I mean these people would never even know how to solve the maths problems which weren't in the textbooks.
Anyway all this has left a very sour taste in my mouth regarding all things Indian. In the next few months, I'm going to the US to pursue a Computer Science Master's like I always wanted, but I do realize that this puts me at a disadvantage over people who did study Computer Science at the Bachelor's level. But I hope I can do well
</rant>
Interested in CS, ended up doing Mech Engg, Worked for of those TCS/Infy type software houses in India.
Anecdote:
First year in engineering, we had this computers course, so the lecturer was teaching about input and output devices (Yes they teach this even in engineering). He goes on "Computer pheriperals are either input OR output devices"
One student raised his hand and asked, "Sir, what about the touchscrens like in ATMs ?" (Touchscreen mobiles were not common, yet)
Lecturer goes silent for a minute, and replies "Son, dont try to be oversmart in my class"
--
Just something I saw. Not saying they are that bad everywhere.
I agree with you on several points - too much emphasis on engineering/medicine, very tough competition and superfluous subjects but I disagree with your conclusion.
a) There are colleges beyond IIT and REC and no they are not all bad.
b) A case can be made that at least through high school people be aware of what different fields have to offer before choosing to specialize.
c) Donations are limited only to management seats. Say what you may - admissions in India through centralized processes are very transparent, actually more so than here in the US.
d) Most people everywhere have little enthusiasm for the jobs that they do.
e) It is not all bad.
One question: does India have equivalents to U.S. private colleges and universities? It seems like one of the U.S.'s major strengths comes from the fact that you don't _have_ to choose public schools, which means that a) you have many more schools to choose from and b) the competition, especially for top students, forces public schools to be somewhat better.
A more minor Q, if you feel like answering it: which school are you at in the U.S.?
Last 3 years of my higher education has been an emphasis on "what"s and not "how"s. But a college where every other week there's a test stacked up for the 6 subjects, syllabi is mixed up the way it should not be, even the last semester has two useless subjects lined up, and attendance is compulsory, it hardly leaves you with much time to answer the "how"s you've been wondering about.
This overburdened-ness hardly leaves students the time to think about what they'd love to do in life & any kind of self-improvement. Tired of such a monotonous routine for 3-4 years the escape route turns into getting a job asap -> hence your observation of "how little enthusiasm most people have about the work they'd end up doing" <- for they really never got a time to think & discuss about how they wish to drive their lives.
Thanks for the detailed comment. I just want to know how did you got the loan? The question is open for anyone too. I'm a third-world citizen looking to study in the USA and while can make my living, I don't think I can pay the expensive tuition fees.
My impression (and I might be very wrong) is that both Indian and Chinese education is concentrated on memorization rather than understanding. That's why so few people from both countries can solve problems (at least in my work experience).
I've interviewed a lot of people in the last 2 years, and I never look at the education level. I only care about your ability to solve problems. We've had people with masters in CS from good schools who could not solve trivial programming problems. We've had completely self-taught guys with a high school diploma, who aced the interview. HR cares about your education level, but if we want to hire you, they can't really say "no" to us. So if you're into IT, you're already light years ahead of all the mindless drones who got a degree just because IT pays well.
Smart people are always in demand. Keep educating yourself, in whatever field you choose. Become a pro, and you will always find a job. Do some contracts, or some open-source work, get your name out, you will make more and more money every year.
A lot has changed, and very little has changed. The whole framing for the story -- that one would expect an Indian graduate to be fluent in conversational English and capable of being net-productive in the global economy -- is one way in which a lot has changed. Historically, that has been true for only the tiniest sliver of folks in India.
The outsourcing boom exploited one persistent mispricing of labor: below that tiny sliver of folks at the top of the educational pyramid in India, there was a slice of folks who had a minimal level of competency and prevailing wages which were absurdly low compared to wages in e.g. the US. I've done telephone support before. You don't have to be a genius to do it. Given that you're not looking for geniuses, you could either find a modestly educated American homemaker (or somebody trying to pay his way through college) at $10 an hour plus costs, or you could employ someone near the top of India's educational distribution for less than $2 an hour, fully-loaded.
Then apply the same economics to folks in the top of that below-the-sliver slice who are able to do back-office line-of-business CRUD apps, which are the outsourcing sweet spot.
Even though India is ginormous, though, there is a finite amount of labor in that slice, and when the global economy became aware of that mispricing, that labor got bid up very rapidly. Prior to the Lehman shock, engineering salaries in India were going up at 50% per year. My company had difficulty keeping any engineer on a project for six months -- they were unwilling to match the new market rates so the market did to them what the market does to everyone: allocates scarce resources efficiently. "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys", to quote one of our Indian engineers. (He now works for a Japanese company at a multiple of his former salary, last I heard.)
Anyhow, the overwrought reporting about the labor mispricing for that one little slice of the market apparently convinced at least some people of something which is manifestly untrue, which is that Indian education is world-class. It's not. India in 2011 is the same as India in 2001 is the same as India in 1951: it is gigantic and filled with lots of desperately poor people who do not have even minimal levels of competency for global work. (It is entirely possible than India in 2051 will not be, but they've got quite a ways to go yet.)
I was speaking with a potential client concerning their current outsourcing in India. Not happy with their outsourcing in India, that potential client said "I need people who can think".
I've been working in enterprise IT (and small business) for about 5 years now. I've never had a good experience in India. There are the few who do come over to the US (on visas) that are exceptional (and possibly in a relative sense) but again don't represent the whole, and nor does my bad experience represent the whole for that matter. The fact is that in more than one occasion (it's actually countless) I've had to hand-hold Indian colleagues on how to fix an issue. It astounds me that this price difference can ever achieve it's value and more importantly do it sustainably over time (re: difficulty keeping an engineer for six months).
Our company has outsourcing in Romania and it's by far better than any other outsourcing I've worked with. I think we've found that "tiniest sliver of folk" in Romania, but it doesn't mean the streets are filled with these type of people, nor do I think we can expand to create a managed service hub of thousands of Romania techies.
At the end of the day I always have to fall back on "you pay for what you get".
It's not. India in 2011 is the same as India in 2001 is the same as India in 1951
As someone who as experienced India in the late 80s, the 90s, and the 2000s, this statement seems so spectacularly far from being true, I have to openly question what sort of evidence you've used to draw your conclusions.
Very good points, put concisely & effectively. Outsourcing and it's impact on technical education in India is a topic that requires a post on it's own.
An important, but tangential point to note is that unlike the US, college education in India does not allow for a student to independently chose his/her major. People join colleges already deciding (without taking a single course) what they plan to get a degree in.
This leads to two things:
1. Most people do not have a clue about their interests and passion until it is too late (or never!).
2. The only majors that people graduate with are those that seem to have a lot of jobs and "prestige in society", often due to peer and parental pressure more than their own volition. This explains why there are so many engineers and doctors.
Combining these two, it is not surprising that a lot of graduates are not passionate about their work but see it as a means to an end.
"An important, but tangential point to note is that unlike the US, ...People join colleges already deciding (without taking a single course) what they plan to get a degree in."
Isn't that how it works in the US as well? Don't students join colleges already deciding what they plan to get a degree in? I'm from Canada. When we apply to university we have to apply to a specific degree. First year courses are already tailored to a particular degree path. If that's not the case in the US, when is it that you actually choose your degree? I always hated the notion that 18 year old people coming out of high school are expected to know what course they want to target for the next four years.
As someone who knows nothing about the Indian education system, can you clarify? Do Indian children have their major chosen for them via parents, tests, or administrators? Or do they decide on their own focus, but prior to college?
I would also offer that the article isn't complaining that graduates are not passionate about their work; it's complaining that they appear to have taken very little away from their education at all. Having less volition intuitively explains a lack of passion, but I'm not convinced that it does a great job explaining a lack of competence -- passion can be replaced by discipline and social pressure. I find the article's description of problems with teaching, school culture, and school curricula to be more obviously plausible.
As the price of talent in India continues to increase, the problem may be that these companies aren't willing to pay the new premium for the same talent they used to pay less for pre-offshoring boom in India.
Leading them to outsource their own resource needs to cheaper places
While the general sentiment of the article is true enough (I suffered an academic path not too different from magic_haze - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412098 - above), the specific example of the call-centre in question cannot be used as a valid premise.
They want "new recruits who can answer questions by phone and email.", and also in all likelihood want to pay a pittance for this. Sample the following quote:
Its increasing difficulty finding competent employees in India has forced the company to expand its search to the Philippines and Nicaragua. Most of its 8,000 employees are now based outside of India.
s/competent/cheap there, and you have the reality. I doubt if fresh college grads from Nicaragua or Philippines are on average more 'employable' or 'competent' than those from India. In fact, if a fresh college grad is able to competently answer questions by phone and/or email with a modicum of communication skills, they're arguably better off not getting employed in such a job.
Out of curiosity, who is India's "India" for even cheaper outsourcing?
I know some US corporations are using US prison labor @ pennies per hour for phone support, surprised that abuse hasn't been pushed further, unless maybe it has.
As somebody who has experienced the education system both in India (Bachelors in CE from a decent, but non-reputed school) and US (Masters in CS from a very good school), here are my thoughts on the article:
First off 24/7 is a terrible, terrible company to take as an example, being and ITES company the only skill they require is the skill of communicating in a non-native language, which unsurprisingly is not a strength of most of the college (some of them being Hindi Medium) graduates. If we consider real programming work (which is language neutral), there are absolutely brilliant programmers in India. In fact Indian students were the second highest fraction in GSOC last to last year.
Secondly the point that the curriculum is outdated is totally ridiculous, the books I studied during my Masters and those during my Bachelors had a big chunk in common.
One big difference I found was the quality of teachers is top-class here in US, while not so much in India, and the argument from the article about low pay scales for the teachers, being the reason, stands water.
But the biggest difference is in the teaching methodology and the grading system. Here in US there is a great emphasis on 'Learning by Doing' and a majority of the grades depend on the homework even at college level. While in India, as the article mentions, it is almost solely based on end of the term exams, which encourages cramming and discourages daily learning.
But as an encouragement to the Indian students, I would like to add that if you wish to pursue a field in today's world, there is no stopping you back, specially with the advent of places like Khan academy, MIT open course-ware etc. All you need is will and a little persistence.
Guys, lets all use the Google redirect when we provide massive value to large for profit companies.
this query will save lots of time
www.google.com/url?url=
HN sends thousands of high value users to these corporations each day, and linking to the full version saves us time and brings goodwill to an obtuse online publisher.
I ran a startup in Kathmandu, Nepal for 4 years (www.olenepal.org) and this mirrors my experience there. The modus operandi of Nepali Schools is the "the teacher speaks and the kids repeat." this means that you can't judge applicants at all by their educational background. The best ones I had were almost entirely self-educated. Also, I think I found that only one in 50 applicants were worth hiring.
That said, I believe that the geeks I hired are totally world class. I also believe that w/in 5 years time they will be earning 100,000 USD per year, whether they are living in Nepal or elsewhere. cuz, they are worth it.
Do (great) software engineers in Nepal really make 100k/year? Because I imagine that would mean a lot higher standard of living that it would in the US?
The article clearly explains the current situation in India,
I am an Indian myself. I graduated two year back from a decent engineering college.
In a decent engineering college most of the bright students will be hired by one of the software services companies like Wipro,Infosys,TCS,cognizant. Those who are considered "unworthy" by these companies will end up being a lecturer at some engineering college. Most of the bright kids never choose teaching as a profession.
The CS degree taught in these colleges are not worthy, most students copy their lab exercises and get their job done.Again if you look at the quality of the lab exercises they are not worthy enough. A typical lab exercise will sound like "Implement library management system with Turbo-C", (yes Turbo-C) where the student will be given with 100% mark if he creates a structure and prints the contents of it.The point is, a student in 4 years of his college life never create something real and useful.
No one from a decent college will go to a call centre.
Here is a paper done by one of mentor, who is into free software advocacy among students, this paper clearly explains the mentality of students and tutors in most of India's engineering colleges http://www.shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/shakthimaan-paper/s...
Part of the problem is a social and cultural system where due to the success of IT industry, every parent wants to see their kid become an engineer. Many of the engineering colleges do not even take minimum tests for admission and you can buy seats on so called management quota. Even in premier institutes like IITs, NITs etc 30% of seats are reserved under SC/ST caste based quota scheme. It is no wonder that majority of people who are graduating are not employable. The article is well sourced but ignored some of the social and political issues in India which are the root of the problem along with a dysfunctional government.
To me the most disturbing thing as described in the article is that despite an emphasis on rote learning, they can't even teach how to read.
To me it seems that reading and 'thinking' are such fundamental skills in IT that they would just be assumed elsewhere... but an educational system that fails to teach reading is really enormously broken.
That said, I have actually worked with two lots of people in Bangalore. One lot got flown out to my country, and they were nice if a little lazy. On the other hand, they put up with some shit that the 'white natives' wouldn't have, like ridiculously long compile times because some idiot (most likely a well educated white person) had thrown the kitchen sink at their ant script. I wouldn't have put up with a 30 minute build, I'd have lost my nut. They were at least as smart as the 'white natives', they could converse, their English was at least as good (and better in some cases) than the native English speakers.
However, they said that in Bangalore working for companies is very stratified. Everyone wants to work at the large American companies (e.g. IBM) so they are the top tier and get to pick the best candidates, and then you get this trickle down effect, till you get to relatively small non-US foreign companies (like us). From the article, it seems there are even lower tiers, e.g. presumably the good candidates don't apply to the smaller Indian companies.
Funnily enough, later on I got the opportunity to work with some guys in Bangalore who were employed by IBM, and they were completely, atrociously bad. The only time I've seen worse is deliberate sabotage. These guys got on the excuse merry-go-round and never got off, and would keep recycling excuses why they hadn't done any work, even though you'd think "didn't we already deal with this the previous two times it came up?". These guys did nothing.
Naturally, I cheated. :D I took a page out of the managers handbook, declared 'victory' and ended the programming phase. Now we were into the testing/bugfix phase. My 'white native†' colleagues who had also been frustrated by lack of progress in Bangalore were puzzled by this. They said how can it go into testing, they haven't done anything? So I said "run the tests and if you find any problems, fix them" so they said "but there's nothing to run!" and I said "well, that is the first problem to fix then isn't it?". And suddenly the lightbulb went on and they 'got it'. We actually made up all the lost time and then some.
So I'm not particularly impressed with these so called 'top tier' candidates either.
†Not necessarily white or 'native', but naturalised citizens of an English speaking country
The basic problem is that instead of focusing on improving one's skill set, the focus is more on hacking the system; getting that job or admission into a college. I have seen how resumes were photocopied from a standard template with only personal details changed. Also most of the answers were canned and memorized based on what the interviewers would like to hear. I am not sure if this happens across the globe,perhaps someone can comment.
Also most of the engineering entrance exams test on math, physics and chemistry. A lot of the graduates come from areas where the standard of english teaching is not very high, which explains why they may have poor comprehension.
Something that is not mentioned is that the options in terms of higher education is mostly limited to engineering and medicine, at least these are the only socially acceptable degrees to a large extent. So virtually everyone ends up doing an engineering degree and it becomes a situation where there is quantity but no quality.
I think the main difference between India and, say, the West (US/UK) is that in India, students pick a profession based on the earning potential, or what their parents what them to do. Very few people pick it based on what they want to do.
So you have people getting CS degrees, but their hearts are not in CS. So there's no passion, no excitement, no enthusiasm.
Meanwhile, colleges also don't light a fire inside their students. It's all rote learning. One of the few colleges that really teaches people how to think independently is BITS Pilani http://www.bits-pilani.ac.in/ (I may be biased a little ;) ). Even though I got a Mechanical Engg degree from there, I learnt enough CS that I was able to get a full assistantship in the US in CS (where my heart was). I am grateful for the education I got there.
Its not the educational system that is the main reason here. Well the system needs to change but the problem here is caused by the proliferation of engineering colleges (and other technical degree colleges). Its too easy to start a engineering college in India. There are way too many "engineers" and degree holders pushed out that don't deserve to get that degree. The schools only care about getting money and are really shitty. That is what is making for the influx of poor candidates into the employment pool.
People are educated in India. That doesn;t mean they have to speak English or be able to read English books. English is not the native language for many school and college going people and their education have been through vernacular medium schools. Its how sharp they are that matters. Teach them English properly and they will be able to grasp that too! This articles tries to judge students based on "So few of the high school and college graduates who come through the door can communicate effectively in English, and so many lack a grasp of educational basics such as reading comprehension, that the company can hire just three out of every 100 applicants." which is ridiculous!!
I had a couple of Indian grad students in my office last Fall who were seriously distraught that they were getting an A- in one of my courses. They thought this would prevent them from getting a job. I tried to disabuse them.
The problem seems to be poor communication in English and lack of a grasp of educational basics such as reading comprehension. These are problems to be addressed at the high school level.
I attribute these squarely to the teaching methodology which is mostly memorization with no encouragement to creativity whatsoever. On top of this, the teachers in most schools are utterly incompetent and hence lack enthusiasm.
One solution may be to start private institutions that teach or increase the proficiency in such language skills (like how NIIT and Aptech did to computer education when schools couldn't do it).
I have my doubts about the quality of computer education imparted by the likes of NIIT. Years ago, one of my non technical friends wanted to join a C/C++ course at one of their centers. Their claim was they'd teach him both in 6 months, part time. I tagged along with him on the first day and was generally trolling around, asking their faculty if they teach Assembly language. As expected, not one of them had heard of it. One of the more ludicrous responses was something like "What's assembly, is it something like pseudo-code ?".
[+] [-] magic_haze|15 years ago|reply
The last few years of high school was basically hell for me: the government subsidies OP's article mentions are limited just for the biggies (IITs and RECs), and the chances of getting into them are very slim. You have to get through series of examinations that over the years have gotten very _very_ tough: they basically expect you to know things in Physics, Chemistry and Math that - atleast in the US - are not taught till the third year of college. Forget about high school - I went to IIT coaching centers, and was very miserable because I had no real interest in any of the subjects - I wanted to learn CS, dammit - why was I mugging up organic chem formulae?
Its not even worth it to consider joining other colleges. Job options are limited, but the worst part is they all require huge "donations" upfront for a laughable experience (both in terms of the teaching talent and curriculum).
Long story short, I didn't end up getting a sufficiently high ranking in the entrance exams (my choices in the placement, if I remember right, were either metallurgy in IIT or mechanical engineering in REC: the top 400 had basically grabbed up all the CS degrees. Remember: over 400,000 students write the exam every year, so almost everyone ends up in a field they're not interested in.) so I decided to take a huge student loan and come study in the US. I don't regret the decision: I'm now doing what I love, and have gotten _so_ much more exposure than my peers back home it's not even funny.
When I went back to India to do an internship (and enjoy the vacation) a couple of years back, I was appalled by how little enthusiasm most people have about the work they'd end up doing.
Horrible stuff.
[+] [-] gnufied|15 years ago|reply
> was very miserable because I had no real interest in any of the subjects
You had no interest in Physics & Mathematics? You can hardly blame people who set JEE questions, you don't expect them to ask to write C programs for the entrance exams, do you? Given, myriad subjects that are being taught at +2 level, only physics, chemistry & mathematics are universally taught across India. And the way I see it, It makes sense to ask questions from those subjects.
>When I went back to India to do an internship (and enjoy the vacation) a couple of years back, I was appalled by how little enthusiasm most people have about the work they'd end up doing.
Again, even in US, "most" people have very little enthusiasm towards work they are doing. But I believe, your story is little anecdotal too. Every one of my friend whom I know socially in Bangalore today, are programming their ass off. They work on weekends, on side projects, start up ideas or open source stuff. I understand, my experience is anecdotal too. But again, if you are willing to look beyond IT services, there are people who genuinely love programming, I guess thats how the case everywhere, pretty much.
[+] [-] SingAlong|15 years ago|reply
Joined Info Science engg later. But I've been disappointed since. I had to scrape through chem, physics and civil subjects (compulsory common subjects at my university for all first years). Rote learning is encouraged instead of practical work. Hiring is based on grades and not the ability to create/solve.
In most families joining startups is frowned upon for a funny reason. I had convinced my mom about startups and why they were the coolest places to work at. But a friend of her's turned up at our house, and asked me as to how I expect my mom to answer when a prospective bride's parents ask her about my place of work (it seems that I should be working at a popular place). I had to tell her in simpler words - I don't want to be the replace-able guy working in a cubicle knocking at the keyboard all day. and told her startups don't have cubicles and have a t-shirt culture. End of chapter ;)
People seem to care a lot about `social status` which is measured by money. The remedy would be to start to care about how the money is made rather than the money itself (it's difficult to totally eliminate it since people see social status as a measure of your value).
[+] [-] shreyas88|15 years ago|reply
I ended up studying something I didn't like in Engineering and didn't get good grades. I failed in a few exams. As shown in the movie 3 idiots, I did get selected in 2 companies after Engineering, but due to those failed exams, they ended up not giving me an offer letter even though I had got selected among a group of 3000(me and 12 others had gotten selected.) And my classmates who memorized everything in the textbooks got a high salaried job. I mean these people would never even know how to solve the maths problems which weren't in the textbooks.
Anyway all this has left a very sour taste in my mouth regarding all things Indian. In the next few months, I'm going to the US to pursue a Computer Science Master's like I always wanted, but I do realize that this puts me at a disadvantage over people who did study Computer Science at the Bachelor's level. But I hope I can do well </rant>
[+] [-] bbk|15 years ago|reply
Anecdote: First year in engineering, we had this computers course, so the lecturer was teaching about input and output devices (Yes they teach this even in engineering). He goes on "Computer pheriperals are either input OR output devices"
One student raised his hand and asked, "Sir, what about the touchscrens like in ATMs ?" (Touchscreen mobiles were not common, yet)
Lecturer goes silent for a minute, and replies "Son, dont try to be oversmart in my class"
-- Just something I saw. Not saying they are that bad everywhere.
[+] [-] dman|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jseliger|15 years ago|reply
A more minor Q, if you feel like answering it: which school are you at in the U.S.?
[+] [-] ideamonk|15 years ago|reply
This overburdened-ness hardly leaves students the time to think about what they'd love to do in life & any kind of self-improvement. Tired of such a monotonous routine for 3-4 years the escape route turns into getting a job asap -> hence your observation of "how little enthusiasm most people have about the work they'd end up doing" <- for they really never got a time to think & discuss about how they wish to drive their lives.
[+] [-] csomar|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rorrr|15 years ago|reply
I've interviewed a lot of people in the last 2 years, and I never look at the education level. I only care about your ability to solve problems. We've had people with masters in CS from good schools who could not solve trivial programming problems. We've had completely self-taught guys with a high school diploma, who aced the interview. HR cares about your education level, but if we want to hire you, they can't really say "no" to us. So if you're into IT, you're already light years ahead of all the mindless drones who got a degree just because IT pays well.
Smart people are always in demand. Keep educating yourself, in whatever field you choose. Become a pro, and you will always find a job. Do some contracts, or some open-source work, get your name out, you will make more and more money every year.
[+] [-] patio11|15 years ago|reply
The outsourcing boom exploited one persistent mispricing of labor: below that tiny sliver of folks at the top of the educational pyramid in India, there was a slice of folks who had a minimal level of competency and prevailing wages which were absurdly low compared to wages in e.g. the US. I've done telephone support before. You don't have to be a genius to do it. Given that you're not looking for geniuses, you could either find a modestly educated American homemaker (or somebody trying to pay his way through college) at $10 an hour plus costs, or you could employ someone near the top of India's educational distribution for less than $2 an hour, fully-loaded.
Then apply the same economics to folks in the top of that below-the-sliver slice who are able to do back-office line-of-business CRUD apps, which are the outsourcing sweet spot.
Even though India is ginormous, though, there is a finite amount of labor in that slice, and when the global economy became aware of that mispricing, that labor got bid up very rapidly. Prior to the Lehman shock, engineering salaries in India were going up at 50% per year. My company had difficulty keeping any engineer on a project for six months -- they were unwilling to match the new market rates so the market did to them what the market does to everyone: allocates scarce resources efficiently. "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys", to quote one of our Indian engineers. (He now works for a Japanese company at a multiple of his former salary, last I heard.)
Anyhow, the overwrought reporting about the labor mispricing for that one little slice of the market apparently convinced at least some people of something which is manifestly untrue, which is that Indian education is world-class. It's not. India in 2011 is the same as India in 2001 is the same as India in 1951: it is gigantic and filled with lots of desperately poor people who do not have even minimal levels of competency for global work. (It is entirely possible than India in 2051 will not be, but they've got quite a ways to go yet.)
[+] [-] mbesto|15 years ago|reply
I've been working in enterprise IT (and small business) for about 5 years now. I've never had a good experience in India. There are the few who do come over to the US (on visas) that are exceptional (and possibly in a relative sense) but again don't represent the whole, and nor does my bad experience represent the whole for that matter. The fact is that in more than one occasion (it's actually countless) I've had to hand-hold Indian colleagues on how to fix an issue. It astounds me that this price difference can ever achieve it's value and more importantly do it sustainably over time (re: difficulty keeping an engineer for six months).
Our company has outsourcing in Romania and it's by far better than any other outsourcing I've worked with. I think we've found that "tiniest sliver of folk" in Romania, but it doesn't mean the streets are filled with these type of people, nor do I think we can expand to create a managed service hub of thousands of Romania techies.
At the end of the day I always have to fall back on "you pay for what you get".
[+] [-] statictype|15 years ago|reply
As someone who as experienced India in the late 80s, the 90s, and the 2000s, this statement seems so spectacularly far from being true, I have to openly question what sort of evidence you've used to draw your conclusions.
[+] [-] raghava|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bdhe|15 years ago|reply
This leads to two things: 1. Most people do not have a clue about their interests and passion until it is too late (or never!). 2. The only majors that people graduate with are those that seem to have a lot of jobs and "prestige in society", often due to peer and parental pressure more than their own volition. This explains why there are so many engineers and doctors.
Combining these two, it is not surprising that a lot of graduates are not passionate about their work but see it as a means to an end.
[+] [-] grannyg00se|15 years ago|reply
Isn't that how it works in the US as well? Don't students join colleges already deciding what they plan to get a degree in? I'm from Canada. When we apply to university we have to apply to a specific degree. First year courses are already tailored to a particular degree path. If that's not the case in the US, when is it that you actually choose your degree? I always hated the notion that 18 year old people coming out of high school are expected to know what course they want to target for the next four years.
[+] [-] mquander|15 years ago|reply
I would also offer that the article isn't complaining that graduates are not passionate about their work; it's complaining that they appear to have taken very little away from their education at all. Having less volition intuitively explains a lack of passion, but I'm not convinced that it does a great job explaining a lack of competence -- passion can be replaced by discipline and social pressure. I find the article's description of problems with teaching, school culture, and school curricula to be more obviously plausible.
[+] [-] aonic|15 years ago|reply
Leading them to outsource their own resource needs to cheaper places
[+] [-] shrikant|15 years ago|reply
While the general sentiment of the article is true enough (I suffered an academic path not too different from magic_haze - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2412098 - above), the specific example of the call-centre in question cannot be used as a valid premise.
They want "new recruits who can answer questions by phone and email.", and also in all likelihood want to pay a pittance for this. Sample the following quote:
Its increasing difficulty finding competent employees in India has forced the company to expand its search to the Philippines and Nicaragua. Most of its 8,000 employees are now based outside of India.
s/competent/cheap there, and you have the reality. I doubt if fresh college grads from Nicaragua or Philippines are on average more 'employable' or 'competent' than those from India. In fact, if a fresh college grad is able to competently answer questions by phone and/or email with a modicum of communication skills, they're arguably better off not getting employed in such a job.
[+] [-] ck2|15 years ago|reply
I know some US corporations are using US prison labor @ pennies per hour for phone support, surprised that abuse hasn't been pushed further, unless maybe it has.
[+] [-] sharmajai|15 years ago|reply
First off 24/7 is a terrible, terrible company to take as an example, being and ITES company the only skill they require is the skill of communicating in a non-native language, which unsurprisingly is not a strength of most of the college (some of them being Hindi Medium) graduates. If we consider real programming work (which is language neutral), there are absolutely brilliant programmers in India. In fact Indian students were the second highest fraction in GSOC last to last year.
Secondly the point that the curriculum is outdated is totally ridiculous, the books I studied during my Masters and those during my Bachelors had a big chunk in common. One big difference I found was the quality of teachers is top-class here in US, while not so much in India, and the argument from the article about low pay scales for the teachers, being the reason, stands water.
But the biggest difference is in the teaching methodology and the grading system. Here in US there is a great emphasis on 'Learning by Doing' and a majority of the grades depend on the homework even at college level. While in India, as the article mentions, it is almost solely based on end of the term exams, which encourages cramming and discourages daily learning.
But as an encouragement to the Indian students, I would like to add that if you wish to pursue a field in today's world, there is no stopping you back, specially with the advent of places like Khan academy, MIT open course-ware etc. All you need is will and a little persistence.
[+] [-] ajpatel|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rit|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cvos|15 years ago|reply
this query will save lots of time www.google.com/url?url=
HN sends thousands of high value users to these corporations each day, and linking to the full version saves us time and brings goodwill to an obtuse online publisher.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&v...
[+] [-] bryanwb|15 years ago|reply
That said, I believe that the geeks I hired are totally world class. I also believe that w/in 5 years time they will be earning 100,000 USD per year, whether they are living in Nepal or elsewhere. cuz, they are worth it.
[+] [-] tomjen3|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sagarun|15 years ago|reply
In a decent engineering college most of the bright students will be hired by one of the software services companies like Wipro,Infosys,TCS,cognizant. Those who are considered "unworthy" by these companies will end up being a lecturer at some engineering college. Most of the bright kids never choose teaching as a profession.
The CS degree taught in these colleges are not worthy, most students copy their lab exercises and get their job done.Again if you look at the quality of the lab exercises they are not worthy enough. A typical lab exercise will sound like "Implement library management system with Turbo-C", (yes Turbo-C) where the student will be given with 100% mark if he creates a structure and prints the contents of it.The point is, a student in 4 years of his college life never create something real and useful.
No one from a decent college will go to a call centre.
Here is a paper done by one of mentor, who is into free software advocacy among students, this paper clearly explains the mentality of students and tutors in most of India's engineering colleges http://www.shakthimaan.com/downloads/glv/shakthimaan-paper/s...
[+] [-] codelion|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eliezer|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanc|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] galadriel|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Stormbringer|15 years ago|reply
To me it seems that reading and 'thinking' are such fundamental skills in IT that they would just be assumed elsewhere... but an educational system that fails to teach reading is really enormously broken.
That said, I have actually worked with two lots of people in Bangalore. One lot got flown out to my country, and they were nice if a little lazy. On the other hand, they put up with some shit that the 'white natives' wouldn't have, like ridiculously long compile times because some idiot (most likely a well educated white person) had thrown the kitchen sink at their ant script. I wouldn't have put up with a 30 minute build, I'd have lost my nut. They were at least as smart as the 'white natives', they could converse, their English was at least as good (and better in some cases) than the native English speakers.
However, they said that in Bangalore working for companies is very stratified. Everyone wants to work at the large American companies (e.g. IBM) so they are the top tier and get to pick the best candidates, and then you get this trickle down effect, till you get to relatively small non-US foreign companies (like us). From the article, it seems there are even lower tiers, e.g. presumably the good candidates don't apply to the smaller Indian companies.
Funnily enough, later on I got the opportunity to work with some guys in Bangalore who were employed by IBM, and they were completely, atrociously bad. The only time I've seen worse is deliberate sabotage. These guys got on the excuse merry-go-round and never got off, and would keep recycling excuses why they hadn't done any work, even though you'd think "didn't we already deal with this the previous two times it came up?". These guys did nothing.
Naturally, I cheated. :D I took a page out of the managers handbook, declared 'victory' and ended the programming phase. Now we were into the testing/bugfix phase. My 'white native†' colleagues who had also been frustrated by lack of progress in Bangalore were puzzled by this. They said how can it go into testing, they haven't done anything? So I said "run the tests and if you find any problems, fix them" so they said "but there's nothing to run!" and I said "well, that is the first problem to fix then isn't it?". And suddenly the lightbulb went on and they 'got it'. We actually made up all the lost time and then some.
So I'm not particularly impressed with these so called 'top tier' candidates either.
†Not necessarily white or 'native', but naturalised citizens of an English speaking country
[+] [-] sid6376|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EternitiesEnd|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] w1ntermute|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] RyanMcGreal|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] shrikant|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajays|15 years ago|reply
So you have people getting CS degrees, but their hearts are not in CS. So there's no passion, no excitement, no enthusiasm.
Meanwhile, colleges also don't light a fire inside their students. It's all rote learning. One of the few colleges that really teaches people how to think independently is BITS Pilani http://www.bits-pilani.ac.in/ (I may be biased a little ;) ). Even though I got a Mechanical Engg degree from there, I learnt enough CS that I was able to get a full assistantship in the US in CS (where my heart was). I am grateful for the education I got there.
[+] [-] yalogin|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] woggleboos|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] regehr|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hariis|15 years ago|reply
I attribute these squarely to the teaching methodology which is mostly memorization with no encouragement to creativity whatsoever. On top of this, the teachers in most schools are utterly incompetent and hence lack enthusiasm.
One solution may be to start private institutions that teach or increase the proficiency in such language skills (like how NIIT and Aptech did to computer education when schools couldn't do it).
[+] [-] rmjb|15 years ago|reply