Police should never be permitted to direct medical professionals to do anything to a person in their custody unless it is to save their life. Medical professionals should be hyper-trained on how to tell police “hell no” and to report their requests to an independent agency for investigation.
There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I have read about:
- forcing a suspect to be subject to anal cavity search by a doctor at a hospital after a traffic stop
- forcing hospital staff to run blood tests on an awake, non-consenting suspect
Everyone who has ever dealt with the medical world for a personal or family problem understands that there are few “sure things” and that something that worked miraculously for someone’s problem might not work for yours, even if they seem like the same problem. Allowing police a position to direct medical care is utterly outrageous and irresponsible.
That said, what was done to Elijah McCain is one of the sickest, most unacceptably fucked up nightmare scenarios I’ve ever heard of. The initial interaction was a result of racist police who then had their victim murdered because they never saw him as a person, just another potential criminal.
Medical professionals do refuse! If you remember Alex Wubbels a nurse who refused to do a blood draw stating that she would not unless the patient was under arrest, a warrant had been issued or the patient had consented.
She was arrested, although not charged and was later apologized to. The cop was fired and it also lead to Utah changing its blood draw laws.
The cops involved went back to where they killed Elijah McCain and posed for a group photo, reportedly re-enacting his death.
This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer.
Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extremely alarming.
I work as a paramedic, and on occasion have to sedate folks. I have never (and will never) sedated someone at the request of the police. I can think of two occasions where the decision to sedate was a discussion between the cops and I (trying to come up with alternatives). It's also common for me to ask the police for assistance physically restraining someone in order to make the sedation process safer. That's as far as the involvement of the police should go. I agree 100% with your assessment of Elijah McCain's killing.
That being said, sedation is an important tool, and often the safest course of action for a patient that would otherwise be a danger to themselves or others. A prolonged fight can be fatal for someone who is pushing their body further than it should go.
It definitely has to be done correctly though, and given the number of cases where it was very clearly done incorrectly, I do think changes need to be made.
Don't forget psych evaluations - with the implication that they should be found unfit for release. This one is a favorite of "cops" that don't actually have authority to arrest people or no probable cause for it.
It's unquestionably a lynching. But this is what this perverted culture tolerates. Rather than the public participating in the lynching directly, it has hired professional lynchers.
It's used as a treatment for drug overdoses ("excited delerium") which appears to be why it was used here. Of course it's a catch-all term, there's no way to tell offhand just what street drugs someone is on. There has to be a reason it took half a dozen people to hold him down.
Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?
Pretty much everywhere in the world, paramedics are allowed to inject sedatives when treating a patient. Ketamine is used in many places (the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Austria) by paramedics, because it is very safe relative to other sedatives. So the main concern should whether or not police are ordering EMS to administer it when it is not actually required (police do not administer it themselves), since I don't think administering it after an arrest should be an issue if it is actually required.
The article doesn't really give much evidence that this actually happens very frequently. The main piece of evidence is this:
In Minneapolis, a report conducted by the Office of Police Conduct Review found eight of those cases between 2016 and 2018, ranging from officers requesting paramedics use the drug to emergency medical workers asking officers for their opinions on sedating someone.
8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department.
Paramedics here are only allowed to do so if a doctor is not available and there is an emergency waranting using medication. After giving such medication, close monitoring and hospitalisation is mandatory, except if the physician arrives in time and releases the patient (which is very rare in such circumstances). The article never talks about a doctor arriving, an EKG, hospitalisation or any other appropriate measures, from which I conclude that there were none. Which is unconsciable, ketamine isn't "just an aspirin".
> He got 500 milligrams because they thought he weighed 220 pounds, but he was only 140 pounds and should have received 315 milligrams.
315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff.
edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 100% immobilized. That is a recipe for disaster around angry cops.
edit2: It's bio-availability is actually twice as high intramuscularilly than insufflated.. well you wouldn't be fighting the cops but dear god I would not want to experience that.
Setting aside the fact that this kind of thing happens at all: How is ketamine the drug of choice?! Although it has a very high active dose:fatal dose (alluded to in other comments), accepted practice for "chemical restraint" is Thorazine+Valium (or equivalent); ketamine is basically never used for behavioral "sedation" by any medical professional.
The use of chemical restraint in a law enforcement setting is an appalling breach of human rights, but ketamine is by far the safest option in an out-of-hospital setting, especially when you don't have any sort of patient history. I'm sure that someone has been killed by a single clinical dose of ketamine, but I'm not sure how. Ketamine isn't a very good chemical cosh, but at least it's a safe one.
Anyone administering chlorpromazine and a benzodiazepine in this setting is criminally negligent - if the "patient" (and I very much hesitate to use that word in this context) has taken another CNS depressant, they're in deep trouble.
Our Ed takedown drug is midazolam. I can’t see benzos being safe being given by non-medics. The safety profile of ketamine is excellent (as I’m sure you know)
Having said that it blows my mind that it is considered necessary or appropriate to give someone ketamine to restrain them.
The amount of opioids on the streets of the US (and elsewhere) is staggering. Many people are on a cocktail of different street drugs (meth + heroine where I live). You don't want to be adding a benzo like valium to someone who has opioids in their system due to respiratory depression.
It's completely insane that, in America, police are allowed to direct paramedics to inject a person with _anything_. Anesthesiologists go through how many years of schooling and training? And even then, nobody is injecting kids with shit on the street.
I was first confused when I learned about the McClain story; I had known Ketamine to be a recreational drug, and i had never heard of cops injecting something into a person they were arresting before. Since I have become better educated, I am much more concerned about staying in America long-term. This is not how normal law enforcement should be operating.
The cops didn't "legally" direct the injection. The don't have the authority to do that. In my opinion (as a paramedic), that makes the compliance of the medics with the cops request even more disgusting.
Sedation (even involuntary sedation) is an important tool for EMS (outside the context of law enforcement). It was used totally inappropriately here, and everyone involved should be facing criminal charges.
I dislocated my ankle rock climbing a few years ago and had to be taken to the hospital. After a few doses of morphine had zero noticeable impact on my pain, they gave me ketamine so I couldn't feel the pain of the reduction (aka pulling my foot out and moving it back into place).
The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reduction over the ketamine any day. It basically felt like I was dying and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out" where you can feel your consciousness slipping away but you're not asleep either. I could hear everything happening around me but couldn't move a muscle or feel anything. My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes.
I thought I couldn't talk because I couldn't feel my mouth or move any other muscles, but realized I was actually speaking my thoughts after I heard a friend in the room responded to something I thought in my mind.
Overall, 0/10 would not do it again and the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening.
Are you experienced with drugs? Because most of my friends think ketamine is one the greatest drugs you can do. It would have probably a lot more fun if you were in a comfortable place, like your house, hanging out with your gf or something.
Some of the most chill and relaxed moments of my entire life have been on ketamine. I only do it occasionally because of the nasty chronic side-effects, though.
Accidentally doing too much ketamine and badly k-holing (by snorting) is one of the worst experiences of my life. Maybe the worst. It was exactly as you described, it's like you're being cut off from reality and have no way back. It's like being plunged into the bottom of the ocean, darkness, everything real is distant, you try to move but you can't - it's like someone has unplugged all your sensory organs and limbs.
And it comes in waves -- just when you think you're coming out of it, it pulls you back down.
I swore off ketamine for life after that and don't plan on ever touching it again. I would take a bad comedown from stimulants over that. I would take the feeling of hopelessness, anhedonia, and thorough depression from a bad MDMA comedown any day. To be fair, both things only happen if you do too much, it's avoidable, and it was entirely my fault for not weighing the dose.
And I still think therapeutic ketamine for depression should be studied and trialled and legal. But still, K-holing was an absolutely horrifying experience and I don't recommend it to anyone for any reason.
And it probably was only not even worse because I was also on MDMA.
> My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes.
This was my exact experience with disossiatives as well. I think they can be effectively and safely used, but there's a real danger there. Disossiatives like ketamine and DXM are incredibly powerful.
After my experience in that same eternal void I struggled with a fear that what I'd experienced was the natural state of consciousness, and what would happen to me for eternity after I died. I didn't actually believe it, but the fear was still there and talk. Took a few months for it to wear off.
I had almost exactly the same response the first time I took ketamine. This is despite being experienced with psychedelics (all extremely positive lifechanging experiences), and despite that I was safe at home, knowing what I was taking. The only problem was that I was in a bad state of mind.
It is truly disturbing to imagine going through that during an arrest, with no idea what is happening
I've dislocated my shoulder four times this year. The last three I've asked them to stop knocking me out w/ketamine for the reasons you describe, and just put it back while I scream; which I find quite preferable.
As a youth I did all the drugs and hallucinogens there are and most of them are _nothing_ compared to an anesthetic dose of ketamine. It's the most disassociate experience I've ever had. It feels like you're grasping at your consciousness but can't quite get hold. The hallucinations are incomprehensible. I was told my screaming was heard in the waiting room.
Sounds terrible. In a recent surgery in pre op they gave me Versed/Midazolam. I was so spacey it was weird and kinda scary. I can’t imagine what ketamine would be like
It's worth reading up on Ketamine and its use medically before coming to conclusions based on this article. Notably:
1. EMTs are generally under the oversight of a head doctor and aren't supposed to take actions outside of what they're directed to do there. Even if instructed by a LEO
2. Ketamine is a relatively safe drug used for a variety of purposes. While it may calm down someone experiencing stress, it can also stabilize patients en-route to the hospital
While this situation may be a miscarriage of justice,we needn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Alcohol and ketamine is a known bad bad combination. 500mg is a damn lot of ketamine and morally there is no difference than drugging someone against their will by non medical people for no medical purpose.
Set aside the ethics, legality, and saneness of doping an arrestee for a moment. Anyone know if this impacts the arrested person's 5th amendment rights?
Once you administer a mind altering drug against that person's will, any and all statements made by that person ought to be out of bounds for using against them at trial.
Drugging your suspects makes sense. It's hard to justify injuring someone before they're proven guilty. Traditional methods like tasers and pepper spray tend to leave evidence thats too obvious to the courts.
What worries me most about this is that ketamine on its own is psychoactive to a degree where it can cause hallucinations. I believe it is usually given in order to minimize pain, alongside a real sedative like midazolam before narcosis. By itself, it is really more fuzzy than sedating.
Ever seen someone come out of narcosis? They talk a lot of stupid things.
To use a powerful animal tranquilizer on a human being just to make some cops' job "easier" is about the most abhorrent, sickly thing I have heard in years. I don't want to read any more of this.
To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.
Wait... The police injected a ketamin? Does he have a medical license? Did they informed the patient... I mean suspect and got a consent? This is a whole new level of dystopia. How could this be legal?
Answer me this...if an EMT is able to administer ketamine via injection to an "out of control" "suspect" at a "crime scene", lethal dose or not, why on earth couldn't the police officers, who are armed, protected, and highly skilled in restraining individuals, subdue the subject with handcuffs and or leg restraints? Perhaps some pepper spray, or a net gun that renders them to the ground unable to freely move about?
> Police stopped Elijah McClain on the street in suburban Denver last year after deeming the young Black man suspicious. He was thrown into a chokehold, threatened with a dog and stun gun, then subjected to another law enforcement tool before he died: a drug called ketamine.
From the very beginning this story makes no sense. Suspicious is not a crime.
An earlier story makes things seem even worse:
> While McClain was making his trip to the store, someone had called 911 to report a suspicious person. Referring to McClain, the caller described him wearing a mask said he looked "sketchy" but added that "he might be a good person or a bad person." When asked, the caller told the operator that there were no weapons and that no one was in danger. The operator advised him that officers were on their way to check it out.
Fascinating. The end of the CNN article about this is incredible:
> Richard Harris, the Australian anesthesiologist, was one of only two cave-diving anesthesiologists in the world. "I didn't think it would work at all," Harris told National Geographic. "I expected the first two kids to drown and then we'd have to do something different. I put their odds of survival at zero."
[+] [-] tehwebguy|5 years ago|reply
There are other types of scenarios where out of control cops bully doctors and nurses into doing illegal things, two that I have read about:
- forcing a suspect to be subject to anal cavity search by a doctor at a hospital after a traffic stop
- forcing hospital staff to run blood tests on an awake, non-consenting suspect
Everyone who has ever dealt with the medical world for a personal or family problem understands that there are few “sure things” and that something that worked miraculously for someone’s problem might not work for yours, even if they seem like the same problem. Allowing police a position to direct medical care is utterly outrageous and irresponsible.
That said, what was done to Elijah McCain is one of the sickest, most unacceptably fucked up nightmare scenarios I’ve ever heard of. The initial interaction was a result of racist police who then had their victim murdered because they never saw him as a person, just another potential criminal.
[+] [-] lsllc|5 years ago|reply
She was arrested, although not charged and was later apologized to. The cop was fired and it also lead to Utah changing its blood draw laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_University_of_Utah_Hospit...
[+] [-] ashtonkem|5 years ago|reply
This is the behavior I’d expect from a serial killer.
Edit: they then distributed or showed this photo to the rest of the precinct. We know because a whistleblower notified the media. To my eye, this means that they expected the rest of the precinct to approve of this behavior, which is extremely alarming.
[+] [-] JshWright|5 years ago|reply
That being said, sedation is an important tool, and often the safest course of action for a patient that would otherwise be a danger to themselves or others. A prolonged fight can be fatal for someone who is pushing their body further than it should go.
It definitely has to be done correctly though, and given the number of cases where it was very clearly done incorrectly, I do think changes need to be made.
[+] [-] dkersten|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] satokema_work|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmurf|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jupp0r|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Natsu|5 years ago|reply
Also, there's no mention in this article of police directing the paramedics to do anything. Can you point me to what gave you that idea?
[+] [-] GhostVII|5 years ago|reply
The article doesn't really give much evidence that this actually happens very frequently. The main piece of evidence is this:
In Minneapolis, a report conducted by the Office of Police Conduct Review found eight of those cases between 2016 and 2018, ranging from officers requesting paramedics use the drug to emergency medical workers asking officers for their opinions on sedating someone.
8 cases across three years in one city, where some of those cases were just paramedics asking for a second opinion, does not seem to indicate a very widespread issue across the US, especially when the city being investigated is know to have a bad police department.
[+] [-] corty|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dj_mc_merlin|5 years ago|reply
315 milligrams is still.. a lot. Especially injected into the bloodstream (I presume?) all at one time. Enough to really wrangle your marbles even if you're used to that kind of stuff.
edit: To expand, that's about the dosage most people would get delusions of some sort, but not be 100% immobilized. That is a recipe for disaster around angry cops.
edit2: It's bio-availability is actually twice as high intramuscularilly than insufflated.. well you wouldn't be fighting the cops but dear god I would not want to experience that.
[+] [-] axaxs|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xkcd-sucks|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdietrich|5 years ago|reply
Anyone administering chlorpromazine and a benzodiazepine in this setting is criminally negligent - if the "patient" (and I very much hesitate to use that word in this context) has taken another CNS depressant, they're in deep trouble.
[+] [-] dcolkitt|5 years ago|reply
Adding a bento, like valium, to that mix is extremely dangerous because of the synergistic effect on respiratory depression.
[+] [-] robbiep|5 years ago|reply
Having said that it blows my mind that it is considered necessary or appropriate to give someone ketamine to restrain them.
[+] [-] honksillet|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nerdbaggy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kapura|5 years ago|reply
I was first confused when I learned about the McClain story; I had known Ketamine to be a recreational drug, and i had never heard of cops injecting something into a person they were arresting before. Since I have become better educated, I am much more concerned about staying in America long-term. This is not how normal law enforcement should be operating.
[+] [-] JshWright|5 years ago|reply
Sedation (even involuntary sedation) is an important tool for EMS (outside the context of law enforcement). It was used totally inappropriately here, and everyone involved should be facing criminal charges.
[+] [-] ladberg|5 years ago|reply
The ketamine experience was far worse than my fall and any subsequent pain I experienced, and I would gladly take the pain of the reduction over the ketamine any day. It basically felt like I was dying and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out" where you can feel your consciousness slipping away but you're not asleep either. I could hear everything happening around me but couldn't move a muscle or feel anything. My perception of time went out the window and it felt like I was in an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes.
I thought I couldn't talk because I couldn't feel my mouth or move any other muscles, but realized I was actually speaking my thoughts after I heard a friend in the room responded to something I thought in my mind.
Overall, 0/10 would not do it again and the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening.
[+] [-] elevenoh|5 years ago|reply
I had ketamine during wakeful surgery.
Loved it. Grateful it was available.
But I had prev. experience w/ psychedelics & had learned/practiced how to: let go, place attention on what's positive & cease to have expectations.
[+] [-] smabie|5 years ago|reply
Some of the most chill and relaxed moments of my entire life have been on ketamine. I only do it occasionally because of the nasty chronic side-effects, though.
[+] [-] BagPiper5000|5 years ago|reply
And it comes in waves -- just when you think you're coming out of it, it pulls you back down.
I swore off ketamine for life after that and don't plan on ever touching it again. I would take a bad comedown from stimulants over that. I would take the feeling of hopelessness, anhedonia, and thorough depression from a bad MDMA comedown any day. To be fair, both things only happen if you do too much, it's avoidable, and it was entirely my fault for not weighing the dose.
And I still think therapeutic ketamine for depression should be studied and trialled and legal. But still, K-holing was an absolutely horrifying experience and I don't recommend it to anyone for any reason.
And it probably was only not even worse because I was also on MDMA.
[+] [-] Trasmatta|5 years ago|reply
This was my exact experience with disossiatives as well. I think they can be effectively and safely used, but there's a real danger there. Disossiatives like ketamine and DXM are incredibly powerful.
After my experience in that same eternal void I struggled with a fear that what I'd experienced was the natural state of consciousness, and what would happen to me for eternity after I died. I didn't actually believe it, but the fear was still there and talk. Took a few months for it to wear off.
[+] [-] ajkdhcb2|5 years ago|reply
It is truly disturbing to imagine going through that during an arrest, with no idea what is happening
[+] [-] greggturkington|5 years ago|reply
As a youth I did all the drugs and hallucinogens there are and most of them are _nothing_ compared to an anesthetic dose of ketamine. It's the most disassociate experience I've ever had. It feels like you're grasping at your consciousness but can't quite get hold. The hallucinations are incomprehensible. I was told my screaming was heard in the waiting room.
[+] [-] 1_player|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nerdbaggy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throw32890|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mr_spothawk|5 years ago|reply
> Think of the hypnosis scene from "Get Out"
this is EXACTLY right.
> an empty void for an eternity when it was only a few minutes.
if you maintained the ability to interpret audio and visual inputs, then probably 20-30 minutes, if SWIM had to guess.
> the thought that police use it to pacify someone during an arrest is sickening.
this is EXACTLY right.
reminds me of the psychonaught/rapist sex therapist guy who was mega-dosing women with MDMA or 2CB before forcing himself on them.
[+] [-] coronadisaster|5 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X4PUwrq8tA (NSFW, maybe... but very troubling either way)
[+] [-] igneo676|5 years ago|reply
1. EMTs are generally under the oversight of a head doctor and aren't supposed to take actions outside of what they're directed to do there. Even if instructed by a LEO
2. Ketamine is a relatively safe drug used for a variety of purposes. While it may calm down someone experiencing stress, it can also stabilize patients en-route to the hospital
While this situation may be a miscarriage of justice,we needn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Source: https://youtu.be/Dj4eBa7z03U
Also, the source here is a professional EMT and worth checking out for more points and more information. Prep Medic is awesome :-)
[+] [-] bluntfang|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] profikid|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rvnx|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hnlurker|5 years ago|reply
Once you administer a mind altering drug against that person's will, any and all statements made by that person ought to be out of bounds for using against them at trial.
[+] [-] nottorp|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway189262|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dirtnugget|5 years ago|reply
Ever seen someone come out of narcosis? They talk a lot of stupid things.
[+] [-] hh3k0|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Yc4win|5 years ago|reply
To think of all the complications in a person's body from experiencing a drug that puts your conscience in a literally black hole (K-hole) is just sick. It's wrong.
[+] [-] ezoe|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] honksillet|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iamericfletcher|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aazaa|5 years ago|reply
From the very beginning this story makes no sense. Suspicious is not a crime.
An earlier story makes things seem even worse:
> While McClain was making his trip to the store, someone had called 911 to report a suspicious person. Referring to McClain, the caller described him wearing a mask said he looked "sketchy" but added that "he might be a good person or a bad person." When asked, the caller told the operator that there were no weapons and that no one was in danger. The operator advised him that officers were on their way to check it out.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/happened-elijah-mcclain-protests-b...
Wearing a ski mask in public during the summer, although odd, is not a crime, either.
[+] [-] JRKrause|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dj_gitmo|5 years ago|reply
> Richard Harris, the Australian anesthesiologist, was one of only two cave-diving anesthesiologists in the world. "I didn't think it would work at all," Harris told National Geographic. "I expected the first two kids to drown and then we'd have to do something different. I put their odds of survival at zero."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/04/health/thailand-boys-cave-ket...
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]