This asset forfeiture along blockchains seems like charging a restaurant for serving gangsters because their customer paid using the proceeds of crime. Except with a blockchain, it becomes like seizing assets as compensation from a vinyard that supplied the wine to the restaurant who served the gangsters, and maybe even garnishing the wages of the grape pickers to be sure.
It's stolen money, and how can anyone be against stopping crime, except the definition of crime always seems to expand. The trouble with "justice" is it is a good for which demand is infinite, with the false implication that the price paid for it is never too high. I'd be wary of these technologies.
> like charging a restaurant for serving gangsters because their customer paid using the proceeds of crime
Money is fungible in a way tokens on a public blockchain are not.
Better analogy would be the DoJ seizing a stolen painting bought at auction. The auction was legitimate. The buyer whose asset has been seized did nothing wrong. But the property is identifiably illicit.
If one has significant assets in cryptocurrencies, it would seem necessary to do a certain level of due diligence on the provenance of incoming coins.
You might be right if the money has already been spent and is in the hands of innocent people. But if those addresses are still controlled by the criminals then seizing them causes no collateral damage.
Typical of asset forfeiture, as the charges are made against property instead of people ("in rem") to entirely side-step the whole innocent until proven guilty thing. That applies to people, not property, so you charge the property. Disgusting practice in general, IMO, but hilarious case names.
"United States v. An Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls" [1]
"United States v. One Lucite Ball Containing Lunar Material (One Moon Rock) and One Ten Inch by Fourteen Inch Wooden Plaque" [2]
I'm a PM at Chainalysis, and the work has genuinely been has been the most interesting and impactful work of my life.
If you're a mission driven engineer, or interested in supporting our amazing customers, we're hiring a number of positions.
https://boards.greenhouse.io/chainalysis
Hi. You are are ruining bitcoin because it cannot be used for P2P transactions anymore, because you'll get tainted coins, that cannot be converted into USD, because the exchanges reject them.
Please release a tool that allows regular people to query your system, so we can reject tainted coins, just like the exchanges do. I don't mind if you charge for it, even if it's a lot.
If you have any advice on this problem, please let me know. Thanks.
Say what you will about crypto/blockchain in general, but Chainalysis has to have one of the coolest missions out there right now. As someone who's worked in AML before, it's truly fascinating to me. If blockchain / DeFi is the "wild west" of finance right now, Chainalysis are the vigilantes.
The word Vigilantes might (or might not) have historic nuances that you (or them) may find unfortunate.
From [1] Vigilante: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate) broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice
Alright, I can't edit my post anymore but I just want to add - I see now that perhaps vigilante wasn't the right word. I was trying to fit it into a Wild West metaphor and hadn't had my coffee yet, the phrasing clearly struck a cord.
I was more just trying to phrase that the blockchain world can feel lawless at times, and Chainalysis is trying to bring some order and justice to it. Maybe that's the antithesis of why Bitcoin and other blockchain technologies took off, but I personally think it's pretty sweet as someone with previous AML experience.
<meta name="description" content="Chainalysis helps government agencies, cryptocurrency businesses, and financial institutions engage confidently with cryptocurrency." />
[For those that are uncomfortable allowing JS code to run from unknown websites and are thus presented with a 'This page requires JavaScript to run' blank page message].
One question I have is, what could they have done to avoid such tracking?
I thought there were more secure coins, token remixers, etc., and that if you were determined and not stuck with one exchange or (say) Bitcoin, you could muddy the waters pretty well.
I don't think you can. After all, bitcoin et al are ledgers, so you can track any coin over its lifetime. It doesn't matter how many times you split them apart and shuffle them around. The fact that BTC works on proof of work means that tracking requires much, much less computational effort than the shuffling does.
You have to exit the network at some point to avoid tracking, but then you have the problem of finding an exit node that doesn't report to the US government and doesn't restrict capital flight. I have no personal knowledge of how difficult this is, but I imagine it's not easy. Then again, maybe you just need to know the right guy at Deutsche Bank.
The really short answer is that you should not have an expectation of privacy when sending public transfers. Even in the best case that mixers protect your privacy, your transactions will be flagged by exchanges and services as relating to mixing or another privacy feature. The really only way to have privacy without drawing suspicion is Monero. It sounds like shilling but it's true.
Attempting to obfuscate the origins and destinations of funds involved in criminal conspiracies by using cryptocurrencies is quite a terrible life choice.
Running a literal laundromat for purposes of laundering money is still a far more viable criminal enterprise than anything involving technology.
[+] [-] motohagiography|5 years ago|reply
It's stolen money, and how can anyone be against stopping crime, except the definition of crime always seems to expand. The trouble with "justice" is it is a good for which demand is infinite, with the false implication that the price paid for it is never too high. I'd be wary of these technologies.
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|5 years ago|reply
Money is fungible in a way tokens on a public blockchain are not.
Better analogy would be the DoJ seizing a stolen painting bought at auction. The auction was legitimate. The buyer whose asset has been seized did nothing wrong. But the property is identifiably illicit.
If one has significant assets in cryptocurrencies, it would seem necessary to do a certain level of due diligence on the provenance of incoming coins.
[+] [-] wmf|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1f60c|5 years ago|reply
> United States of America v. 280 virtual currency accounts
[+] [-] arcticbull|5 years ago|reply
"United States v. An Article Consisting of 50,000 Cardboard Boxes More or Less, Each Containing One Pair of Clacker Balls" [1]
"United States v. One Lucite Ball Containing Lunar Material (One Moon Rock) and One Ten Inch by Fourteen Inch Wooden Plaque" [2]
[1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=671831224892866...
[2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=644728520528855...
[+] [-] 8wilson|5 years ago|reply
If you're a mission driven engineer, or interested in supporting our amazing customers, we're hiring a number of positions. https://boards.greenhouse.io/chainalysis
Feel free to contact me if you want to know more.
matt @ chainalysis/com
[+] [-] javert|5 years ago|reply
Please release a tool that allows regular people to query your system, so we can reject tainted coins, just like the exchanges do. I don't mind if you charge for it, even if it's a lot.
If you have any advice on this problem, please let me know. Thanks.
[+] [-] boring_twenties|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pc86|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carterklein13|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aerialoo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aaronstotle|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joshfraser|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Pick-A-Hill2019|5 years ago|reply
From [1] Vigilante: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate) broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice
[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vigilante [2] https://www.forbes.com/companies/chainalysis/ [3] https://www.coindesk.com/crypto-forensics-firm-chainalysis-a...
[+] [-] carterklein13|5 years ago|reply
I was more just trying to phrase that the blockchain world can feel lawless at times, and Chainalysis is trying to bring some order and justice to it. Maybe that's the antithesis of why Bitcoin and other blockchain technologies took off, but I personally think it's pretty sweet as someone with previous AML experience.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] deft|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] garmaine|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Pick-A-Hill2019|5 years ago|reply
[For those that are uncomfortable allowing JS code to run from unknown websites and are thus presented with a 'This page requires JavaScript to run' blank page message].
[Edit to explain - That is from https://www.chainalysis.com/ NOT the submitter's link]
[+] [-] ipsin|5 years ago|reply
I thought there were more secure coins, token remixers, etc., and that if you were determined and not stuck with one exchange or (say) Bitcoin, you could muddy the waters pretty well.
[+] [-] mywittyname|5 years ago|reply
You have to exit the network at some point to avoid tracking, but then you have the problem of finding an exit node that doesn't report to the US government and doesn't restrict capital flight. I have no personal knowledge of how difficult this is, but I imagine it's not easy. Then again, maybe you just need to know the right guy at Deutsche Bank.
[+] [-] sgp_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kim0|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jron|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arcticbull|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bob1029|5 years ago|reply
Running a literal laundromat for purposes of laundering money is still a far more viable criminal enterprise than anything involving technology.
[+] [-] jnwatson|5 years ago|reply