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Apple accuses Epic of “Willful, brazen, and unlawful” conduct

89 points| asimpletune | 5 years ago |scribd.com

86 comments

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[+] gpm|5 years ago|reply
Duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24412810

Also, editorialized title.

[+] nanagojo|5 years ago|reply
It's not an article link, so don't see how it can be editorialized. The title itself is a quote from the document as well.

> Epic fired the first shot in this dispute, and its willful, brazen, and unlawful conduct cannot beleft unchecked. Neither Mr. Sweeney’s self-righteous (and self-interested) demands nor the scale ofEpic’s business can justify Epic’s deliberate contractual breaches, its tortious conduct, or its unfair business practices. This Court should hold Epic to its contractual promises, award Applecompensatory and punitive damages, and enjoin Epic from engaging in further unfair business practices

[+] pmcollins|5 years ago|reply
I thought so too at first about the editorialized title, but there's this quote from the document:

> Epic fired the first shot in this dispute, and its willful, brazen, and unlawful conduct cannot be left unchecked.

[+] pier25|5 years ago|reply
> Left unchecked, Epic’s conduct threatens the very existence of the iOS ecosystem and its tremendous value to consumers.

A bit apocalyptic, no Apple?

[+] BluSyn|5 years ago|reply
Imagine Facebook forcing users to install their own App Store to install Messenger. I think such outcomes are quite apocalyptic if you see what road that leads down.
[+] ErikVandeWater|5 years ago|reply
I really wonder if there is a benefit to writing such hyperbole. I imagine a judge would just scoff at this and be a little annoyed at Apple going forward.
[+] pedroma|5 years ago|reply
It's a bit dramatic.

Most large companies still eat the 30% and launch on Google Play Store anyways, even with alternative app stores or just shipping .apk files.

I don't know why, but my guess is updates. They've probably done some user research and decided it's easier to deliver updates that install in the background. Since the .apk update method is just reinstalling the app, it's very annoying if you ship freqeuent updates.

[+] gameswithgo|5 years ago|reply
As an apple customer I would love nothing more than for the IOS walled garden ecosystem to cease to exist.
[+] rbecker|5 years ago|reply
Even if true, Epic does not owe it to Apple to take care that they don't disturb their business. They are, after all, competing companies, and I haven't heard any compelling reason why a court should protect Apple's business.
[+] fooey|5 years ago|reply
Apples going for blood.

They're asking the court to give them all the commissions Epic failed to pay while their direct payment system was online, going out of their way to describe it as theft.

> Award restitution and disgorgement of all earnings, profits, compensation, benefits, and other ill-gotten gains obtained by Epic as a result of its conduct inviolation of the UCL

[+] notyourwork|5 years ago|reply
I find it interesting that subscription services (Spotify or Netflix for example) can have multiple channels for subscription and get away with it. What part of this am I missing that makes Epic's use case unique.
[+] grwthckrmstr|5 years ago|reply
I would pay for a gaming smartphone (and peripherals) from Epic that uses a fork of Android OS.

Would use it initially as the perfect portable gaming device, which alone is enough to get Epic 100mns+ of distribution.

Epic can subsidise the cost of the smartphone as they would make money from apps and games. They can set their example by taking 5-12% commission.

And after hitting Epic scale and by practicing the principles it preaches Sweeney can show the world a better way.

[+] fooey|5 years ago|reply
Epic failed to even get people to sideload their Android store. People, including Epic themselves, have way too high of an opinion of their sway.
[+] CydeWeys|5 years ago|reply
That's a lot of strong words over what amounts to nothing more than a contract dispute.
[+] divbzero|5 years ago|reply
Do these words have specific legal meaning beyond their emotional connotations?

(Note the HN title is editorialized as sibling comments point out.)

[+] qzw|5 years ago|reply
I think on some level Apple is happy to have this lawsuit at this time. The App Store revenue has become more significant and also presents big opportunities for growth. Especially with the arrival of ARM macs, the future points to a world where the “Apple Tax” might be a literal 30% cut on all transactions conducted through an Apple device. So for Apple it would be good to get some legal clarity before they make such moves. Sure, it would be painful if they lost, but it could be much more so later on. According to a study cited by Apple, they took a cut on only $61B of the $519B of total sales generated by the App Store. They’ve got to be salivating at that latter figure. If they could get 30% of $500B+, it would be more than half of their current annual revenue.
[+] chrismsimpson|5 years ago|reply
Meanwhile in other news, pot calls kettle black
[+] throwawaynothx|5 years ago|reply
"For years, Epic took advantage of everything the App Store had to offer. It availed itself of the tools, technology, software, marketing opportunities, and customer reach that Apple provided" - I laughed quite hard at this one.
[+] tomcam|5 years ago|reply

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[+] exabrial|5 years ago|reply
Not enough people read the whole thing before downvoting. Brilliant. I'm sure you're in talks with SoftBank about an acquisition?
[+] kohtatsu|5 years ago|reply
Darn, I was hoping the weekly review of high profile legal cases was real.

I'd pay $5/month.

[+] WD-42|5 years ago|reply
You had me. Now I want popcorn.
[+] shmerl|5 years ago|reply
Sounds like Apple are describing themselves?
[+] devwastaken|5 years ago|reply
The pot calling the kettle black. Obviously epic did this all on purpose, but that purpose is for good reason, to show that mobile software can no longer be entirely controlled by singular entities with significant conflicts of interest.

The natural market of mobile software is choked out by Apple and Google. Theyre not accepting that the market they originally created has now gone significantly further than what they can and should control. They impliment anti competitive practices, removing apps that may compete with them, where they can completely bankrupt multi million dollar companies based on good mobile software.

Markets belong to everyone, praise be capitalism.

[+] tasogare|5 years ago|reply
30% commission, no alternative store(s), $99/year developer subscription, only seven days side loading on person device if not paying the aforementioned fees, Apple have for long stockpiled reasons for developers and hobbyists to dislike how they treat developers. I’m siding 100% with Epic on this.
[+] ghastmaster|5 years ago|reply
Epic is disingenuous. They could totally transform the mobile market by investing in IOS alternatives. If you don't like what/how someone is doing something, don't cry about it. Do it better.

This is simply a political gamble. They are hoping that the publicity gained results in politicians opening up the app store to favor app creators (epic) through regulation. It's a pathetic move.

[+] m00x|5 years ago|reply
You mean develop a new phone, mobile operating system and compete with the 2 largest companies in the US?

Why didn't they think of that? /s

[+] toast0|5 years ago|reply
Epic's claim is (I believe) that Apple is using its monopoly to unfairly compete. If you believe anti-trust is appropriate, asking a court to enforce it isn't crying about it, it's asking for the law to be followed. If Apple doesn't like the laws of the land, they should make their own.

That's not to say I think Epic's case is clear. I think it's a worthy legal question. I don't own any Apple devices from this century, so the result either way wouldn't directly affect me (but certainly ecosystem effects would).

[+] raz32dust|5 years ago|reply
Really? Epic should build their own OS? Even Microsoft was not able to compete with Android/iOS.
[+] dylan604|5 years ago|reply
> IOS alternatives

this got me to thinking of the alternatives. Android. that's all i could come up with that are viable.

out of curiosity, has anyone attempted to install Android on a jailbroken iPhone?

Edit: quick search makes it look like it is possible on certain devices. i haven't followed through them yet to see success rate, but if you don't like iOS there you go

[+] amanaplanacanal|5 years ago|reply
It’s only a pathetic move if it doesn’t work. If it works, then it was a great move.