[ptest1]

I might be one of the few, but I like the ads I see on Instagram and have purchased lots of things via IG ads. I can’t think of any other app/site where the ads have sucked me in.

I realize this is besides the point, but I thought it was worth sharing in terms of how they might be doing personalization. For me, it’s so good that it actually works.

[mola]

Would you have bought these items otherwise? If the answer is no, then you were "sucked in".

Google AdWords was great, you search for product X you definitely wanted to buy X, that's reasonable personalization.

Now they want to know who you are, so they can optimize manipulatating you to want X even if you didn't before you saw their ad.

There's a big difference between the two type of advertising, although they're both personalized. One is aligning stake holders interest, the other forms an adversarial dynamics.

Of course, in reality, these are the two ends of a spectrum, I dichotomized it to make my point clearer.

[braythwayt]

I question the words "sucked in." Influenced is more appropriate.

Before VisiCalc was invented by Frankston and Bricklin, nobody wanted it. Many people had the problem it solved, but nobody knew it existed, so they didn't go looking to buy it.

Advertising and public relations (see PG's essay "the Submarine") influenced people to buy it. A lot of those folks were people whose businesses improved after buying it, which is why "spreadsheets" went on to become one of the most important product categories of its age.

I think the difference between "influenced" and "manipulated" has to do with informed consent. An ad, clearly marked as such, influences. Advertorials masquerading as independent opinion, paying influencers to use a product to generate faux social proof, manipulating social media algorithms to make it appear as if a preponderance of people you know share a particular viewpoint...

That's all manipulation because the recipient is either completely unaware of what is going on, or dark patterns are used to make it difficult for them to discover what is going on.

But using keywords to target people and then giving them an ad that is clearly labeled as an ad? I think that's just influence.

[ptest1]

None of the items were life or death essentials. These were things like protein cookies, pet-themed gifts, exercise equipment, etc. I wouldn’t have bought them if I never saw the ads.

But wanting and needing are different things. I wouldn’t consider it manipulation to show me something I might be interested in that I wouldn’t have known about otherwise. For instance, I just discovered (via ads) the galaxy night light trend and I’m now thinking it might be fun to get one.

[srtjstjsj]

That's a completely false comparison. just because you want something doesn't mean (a) you need it or (b) the stuff being advertised suits your need.

When you want something, it just means someone else already advertised it to you.

Advertising is merely a tool. The value of products is what matters.

[XCSme]

I think that "sucked in" shouldn't be confused to awareness.

There is one thing to manipulate someone into buying something and a different thing to just point to the existence of that product.

[thrwn_frthr_awy]

But can't you still have that same experience? Isn't Apple simply requiring Instagram to ask you if would like to be tracked?

[soneil]

It does annoy me that this isn't mentioned more often. Apple aren't taking this away, they're enabling the user to opt-out.

That these are almost constantly being stated as the same thing, only shows that the vast majority of users do not want to be tracked, and the vast majority of adtech has no respect for the user's wishes. If neither of these were true, having the option would not be an issue.

[ptest1]

I added “beside the point” because I believe so, yeah.

[HeckFeck]

You may see it that way, but the overall effect of this on humanity is bad (see https://voxeu.org/article/advertising-major-source-human-dis...).

From my experience, I don't enjoy relentless targeted pressure to give up my money for goods I don't really need. I don't like wasting precious time consuming adverts, each braying for my attention in one way or another. I don't think it's ethical treatment of impulsive types and folks who are less aware of what's really happening them. Interestingly, I have felt less pressure to buy anything since installing advert blockers and ignoring TV. I remember feeling strong sensations that I needed to buy a new phone, that I needed to upgrade my PC. Now I've had the same phone for four years and a PC for even longer. Those pressures and sensations are gone and my wallet thanks me.

A strong case could be made that little would be lost to the world if we banned advertising outright. Also consider, it would be better if we could be recommended goods and services by those who don't have a financial incentive from the providers of goods and services.

[glial]

Even worse, advertising incentivizes business models whose primary goal is to create addictive behavior, because the side effect is that you see more ads. So, for example, social media companies will do anything they can to increase “engagement”, even if it means spreading conspiracy theories and inflaming politics. Advertising is the root of this problem, because it is the funding mechanism.

[srtjstjsj]

That's fine, but then you have no need for instagram at all, since it it 100% unnecessary, so the ads won't nother you either.

[nlh]

I agree - I (and at least one friend) feel the same way. There’s some great stuff being made for nerds like us and IG/FB ads have been a fun way to discover.

That being said - why doesn’t someone just cut out all the BS and just design a system that lets me give you my preferences - “show my interesting new products and services related to tech, cooking, coffee, and bicycling” - and then just show me the ads! I’d actually browse that if the ads were as good as IG/FB.

Would save everyone a ton of effort and hand-wringing.

[srtjstjsj]

How do you discover new interests?

Why do people selling cycling junk deserve to be privileged over people selling galaxy nightights?

[roenxi]

Sure, but the ideal framing here is that Apple is not going to assume that on your behalf. It is very welcome to have someone in the space who is willing to say that my phone isn't necessarily a platform built for advertisers.

[dannyr]

Are the ads that good for you to be tracked by these companies everywhere you go and sacrifice your privacy?

[beervirus]

Stop clicking on ads and start blocking them.