> The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) confirmed nine years after that El Masri was “severely beaten, sodomized, shackled, and hooded, and subjected total sensory deprivation—carried out in the presence of state officials of Macedonia and within its jurisdiction.”
> Macedonia’s “government was consequently responsible for those acts performed by foreign officials…Those measures had been used with premeditation, the aim being to cause Mr. Masri severe pain and suffering in order to obtain information,” the ECHR additionally found.
> (...)
> “The U.S. diplomatic cables revealed the extent of pressure brought upon the German authorities (and in parallel, relevant Spanish authorities) not to act upon the clear evidence of criminal acts by the USA even though by then exposed,” Goetz added.
Then some Americans are confused that many in the western world don't like American influence. I find it outrageous that these things happen, and I wouldn't want my government to consider such a country an ally.
I totally agree. First, many Americans don't support these acts, it's just beyond their control. And others do support them but either minimize them or believe they are justified for a greater good.
And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on.
There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.
I personally feel that America SHOULD pull influence/military completely out of Europe as they are well recovered from WW2 and should now be able to afford to have full militaries to handle any bullies in the region. We should stop all our foreign wars and are more or less doing that under Obama and now Trump. Let the Europeans deal with the Middle East since it is their backyard and not ours. I do think we should keep influence in East Asia though provided that Japan, Taiwan, Korea would like us to stick around. That's a sane foreign policy. I'm sure the Europeans will be angels in maintaining their political sovereignty.
> .. in the United States, it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense.
Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime?
If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never will, even for that specific fact only.
In fact, any country that signed and ratified the UN's UDHR, should be barred from extraditing anyone to the USA. Especially for cases like these.
If this involved an African, Asian or a Middle Eastern country, the USA and EU would no doubt threaten with bombing the country into submission, if they would continue to violate basic human right in order to cover up their criminal actions.
A lot of people ask also why Snowden keeps "hiding" in Russia and doesn't come back to face the music.
It's because he's not even allowed to use the public good defense per the Espionage Act.
As for Assange, the poor man has already suffered enough, what the UN amounts to torture. This is despicable and anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs, Rohingya etc. should voice a strong opposition to what is happening to Assange in the West.
P.S. His prosecution isn't even about the 2016 election, however you feel about that, it's about him exposing war crimes committed by the U.S. government, killing civilians, including knowingly journalists and laughing about it.
"Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime?"
... is an intellectually offensive question.
Posed in the open, by someone on an 'American' blog, in perfect safety knowing there would not remotely ever be any repercussions for posing the question.
After reading the NSA article about getting ISIS in very subtle ways that makes it seem like technical glitches, does anyone believe that there were actual “technical glitches” preventing this guy from testifying on video about his CIA torture?
yes, I believe there's a team funded using millions of US taxpayer money working on sabotaging Assanges defense in every possible way including illegal and immoral ways like hacking, bribing, black mailing, etc..
Though he did suffer some technical difficulties, he did not testify as the court ruled his testimony was not relevant to the case. Subtly is not even necessary.
"This hearing has frequently been interrupted by the strange incompetence of the Ministry of Justice in establishing simple videolinks."
"It was not Professor Feldstein’s fault the day finished in confused anti-climax. The court was unable to make the video technology work. For ten broken minutes out of about forty Feldstein was briefly able to give evidence, and even this was completely unsatisfactory as he and Mark Summers were repeatedly speaking over each other on the link."
Also playing with the times:
"Daniel Ellsberg was to give evidence this afternoon. Edward Fitzgerald QC applied for his videolink evidence to be heard at 3.15pm [(in England)] which is 07.15am in California where Dan lives. Baraitser insisted it could not be put back beyond 2.30 pm, thus forcing an 89 year old man [Daniel Ellsberg] to give evidence at 6.30am [(his local time)]. Simply stunning."
The use of internet was also intentionally restricted:
The judge "explained this by stating that the public could normally observe from within the courtroom, where she could control their behaviour. But if they had remote access, she could not control their behaviour and this was not in the “interests of justice”."
I find conspiracy theories exciting and compelling, but intellectually hollow. They are like junk food. They can even be right sometimes, just as pizza can nourish you.
But we are better off setting them aside and sticking with the mundane issues of electing sensible representatives, supporting investigative journalism, engaging in fact-based discourse.
What strikes me with the US is that they can be very progressive on some issues (e.g. lgbt rights), yet totally backward on others (torture, death penalty, mass incarceration and so on...).
The former is distraction for the others. The left in USA has been convinced (or convinced itself) that identity politics is more important than human rights.
The U.S. is not a monolith. Even I, as an individual, have contradictory traits. The U.S. is the outcome of vast government, corporate, and individual actions across a large, geographically dispersed population with enough money and power that when we make a mistake, everyone gets hurt.
Some groups in the US are very progressive on some issues. We still have larges swathes of the country that are backwards and like the torture that is mentioned in the article.
A lot of comments are (rightfully) condemning American atrocity, but let’s not lose sight that it is defense for Assange as well.
His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published.
There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is not stealing, it’s not treason, it’s not endangerment of affected government perpetrators. It’s the exposure of mass scale criminal murder and torture.
State terror shouldn’t be safe. It‘s perpetrators deserve far more than just public exposure of crimes. For all I care post their names, photos and real time position data online. Let them hope for imprisonment in a state that observes their human rights.
The problem I have with him is that his massive leaks were politically motivated.
The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.
The flamewar that you started and perpetuated in this thread is not ok on HN, regardless of how right you are, or feel you are, on the underlying issues. You've done this many times on HN before and we've asked you repeatedly to stop. If you keep doing it, we're going to end up banning you. More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24531609.
I’m going to ignore all the subjective incendiary rhetoric and focus on this (slightly edited) line:
> [Those] who uncover state crimes are the enemy of the state.
This is an interesting point, considering Snowdon made public improper behaviour, which resulted in him fleeing the country, while (at least some of) the improper behaviour has been declared illegal behaviour by a court of law. Meanwhile Snowdon remains persona non grata.
[+] [-] doublesCs|5 years ago|reply
> Macedonia’s “government was consequently responsible for those acts performed by foreign officials…Those measures had been used with premeditation, the aim being to cause Mr. Masri severe pain and suffering in order to obtain information,” the ECHR additionally found.
> (...)
> “The U.S. diplomatic cables revealed the extent of pressure brought upon the German authorities (and in parallel, relevant Spanish authorities) not to act upon the clear evidence of criminal acts by the USA even though by then exposed,” Goetz added.
Then some Americans are confused that many in the western world don't like American influence. I find it outrageous that these things happen, and I wouldn't want my government to consider such a country an ally.
[+] [-] yodsanklai|5 years ago|reply
And a lot are totally clueless and just have no idea of what's going on.
There's a lot of propaganda, poor education and lack of information in the US. Just watch a presidential debate, it's a joke.
[+] [-] stjohnswarts|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rtx|5 years ago|reply
Till you depend on America for protection you will have to play by their rules.
What I believe Americans are confused about European reluctance to protect themselves.
We recently saw Chinese threatening politician from Checz republic. Other European nations still welcomed the group.
[+] [-] elmo2you|5 years ago|reply
Remind me again, what made the USA any better than North Korea or any other off-the-rails criminal regime?
If this statement about the Espionage Act is correct, then why is there even a discussion whether Assange will get a fair trial in the USA? It's plain as daylight that he never will, even for that specific fact only.
In fact, any country that signed and ratified the UN's UDHR, should be barred from extraditing anyone to the USA. Especially for cases like these.
If this involved an African, Asian or a Middle Eastern country, the USA and EU would no doubt threaten with bombing the country into submission, if they would continue to violate basic human right in order to cover up their criminal actions.
[+] [-] AsyncAwait|5 years ago|reply
A lot of people ask also why Snowden keeps "hiding" in Russia and doesn't come back to face the music.
It's because he's not even allowed to use the public good defense per the Espionage Act.
As for Assange, the poor man has already suffered enough, what the UN amounts to torture. This is despicable and anyone who is concerned about the Uyghurs, Rohingya etc. should voice a strong opposition to what is happening to Assange in the West.
P.S. His prosecution isn't even about the 2016 election, however you feel about that, it's about him exposing war crimes committed by the U.S. government, killing civilians, including knowingly journalists and laughing about it.
[+] [-] jariel|5 years ago|reply
... is an intellectually offensive question.
Posed in the open, by someone on an 'American' blog, in perfect safety knowing there would not remotely ever be any repercussions for posing the question.
[+] [-] atonse|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slim|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boomboomsubban|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acqq|5 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24520757
Once there, see the posts by bashinator and _kbh_ for other sources.
Back to the topic here, the "technical glitches" were present throughout the process, as reported day after day on:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
E.g.
"This hearing has frequently been interrupted by the strange incompetence of the Ministry of Justice in establishing simple videolinks."
"It was not Professor Feldstein’s fault the day finished in confused anti-climax. The court was unable to make the video technology work. For ten broken minutes out of about forty Feldstein was briefly able to give evidence, and even this was completely unsatisfactory as he and Mark Summers were repeatedly speaking over each other on the link."
Also playing with the times:
"Daniel Ellsberg was to give evidence this afternoon. Edward Fitzgerald QC applied for his videolink evidence to be heard at 3.15pm [(in England)] which is 07.15am in California where Dan lives. Baraitser insisted it could not be put back beyond 2.30 pm, thus forcing an 89 year old man [Daniel Ellsberg] to give evidence at 6.30am [(his local time)]. Simply stunning."
The use of internet was also intentionally restricted:
The judge "explained this by stating that the public could normally observe from within the courtroom, where she could control their behaviour. But if they had remote access, she could not control their behaviour and this was not in the “interests of justice”."
[+] [-] Hnrobert42|5 years ago|reply
But we are better off setting them aside and sticking with the mundane issues of electing sensible representatives, supporting investigative journalism, engaging in fact-based discourse.
[+] [-] Yc4win|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goatinaboat|5 years ago|reply
FTA:
it will likely be excluded as irrelevant because the Espionage Act does not allow a public interest defense.
Assange is accused of 17 counts of violating the Espionage Act
[+] [-] malux85|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Yaggo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yodsanklai|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mantap|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Hnrobert42|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] x86_64Ubuntu|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] arcticbull|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mlthoughts2018|5 years ago|reply
His actions clearly came with the moral imperative of whistleblowing - even just this one example shows the humanitarian crimes that would go unrevealed if the leaked documents weren’t published.
There’s just no way to pretend like Assange caused harm or violated law - whistleblowing is not stealing, it’s not treason, it’s not endangerment of affected government perpetrators. It’s the exposure of mass scale criminal murder and torture.
[+] [-] crest|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fnoord|5 years ago|reply
The helicopter who shot journalists, that movie was genuine, and a proper leak. All the diplomatic cables being leaked? Clinton's e-mails? I don't believe all of that was in the public interest. He fell in the trap of making it political, us vs them (why he went in bed with the Russians), and disregarding operational safety.
[+] [-] dsign|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RobertoG|5 years ago|reply
The way this kind of thing is done is by managing that the case goes to the "proper" judge.
[+] [-] 9HZZRfNlpR|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jedimind|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BostonJiao|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somurzakov|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] supergirl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Oricle|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] dash2|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] stanski|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] fit2rule|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] dang|5 years ago|reply
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24526092.
[+] [-] oarsinsync|5 years ago|reply
> [Those] who uncover state crimes are the enemy of the state.
This is an interesting point, considering Snowdon made public improper behaviour, which resulted in him fleeing the country, while (at least some of) the improper behaviour has been declared illegal behaviour by a court of law. Meanwhile Snowdon remains persona non grata.
[+] [-] pftf|5 years ago|reply
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