[_jgdh]

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefore it doesn't exist.

But it does. It's heartbreaking that my fellow Indians have to deal with this in 2020. Just like BLM educated some white people about the existence of racism, how it manifests, how it affects people etc., we need a similar movement to educate upper caste Indians.

I've also seen the same people say "if we completely ignore caste, it'll go away". It won't. I personally can't tell you what someone's caste is based on their name because I don't care enough to find out the mapping between name <=> caste. If everyone was like this, there wouldn't be a problem. But I know for a fact that there exist people who can map name to caste and these people also discriminate on the basis of caste. These people might only be a minority but they can have a disproportionate effect. As long as they exist, the rest of us can't adopt an ostrich approach to the caste system.

[magicalhippo]

I'm Norwegian, living there. A very good friend is Indian, her parents moved here while she was just a few years old. I never heard her talk about her caste, or the system in general really.

That is, until one day, out of the blue, she said she was getting married. Her parents had found a boy who also grew up here in Norway that she was to marry the following year.

After a bit of talking it was clear she was not very fond of the idea of her parents finding her a mate. However from what I gathered she was just about as worried about his caste.

He was of a lower caste than her, and this was not ideal at all from what I understood. However, his family was rather well off, so perhaps it would be acceptable after all...

This came as a complete shock to me, as I had perceived her as rather liberal and as mentioned had never heard her speak of her caste or similar. But there it was, weighing her down.

[dkarl]

For a contrasting anecdote, just to illustrate the range of beliefs, I knew a couple who met in the U.S. and agonized over the impact their marriage would have on their families in India because she was Brahmin and he was Kshatriya. They thought it would be problematic, especially for her parents, if their parents' friends, neighbors, etc. knew they had a daughter married to a Kshatriya. After dreading for months the task of sharing the news with their parents, finally they did it, and... it wasn't a big deal at all. Her parents said, "It would be a big problem for us if you were coming back here to live, but you're not. Everybody knows it doesn't matter in the U.S. Nobody will care." They did not think having a daughter married to a Kshatriya in the U.S. would bring them the same stigma as having a daughter married to a Kshatriya in India would. And not because they were hiding the marriage: they had a big wedding in India with both families and hundreds of guests from each side.

I don't know if their expectation turned out to be true, and obviously there are a lot of people who don't share their thinking, but I found it striking that they would even expect people feel differently based on where their daughter was living. In the U.S. we learn that caste rules are "religious," and our idea of religion is like Christianity, something that is either true everywhere or true nowhere. The idea that your judgmental neighbors would say "oh, it's fine because they're living in a country where nobody believes in that stuff" was a new one for me.

[timwaagh]

Shouldn't it be more shocking that your friend agreed to an arranged marriage? I mean I'm not in Norway (pretty close though) and I don't know to what degree this is acceptable in Norwegian culture. But in mine it very much isn't. We ought to expect more from women these days. Because caste might be a completely foreign problem to us, but arranged marriages used to be the norm here as well. It took the second wave of feminism to eliminate that problem and make parents feel ashamed for even trying. We wouldn't want to have that practice sneaking back in through the back door again.

[shuckles]

If caste only came up in a mutual interest decision like a wedding where there aren't power imbalances, isn't that fine? Who someone chooses to marry seems like an unreasonable place to intervene to resolve disparities.

[notacoward]

Everything you say rings very true to me. Most Indians are very reluctant to talk about this. Of several that became friends when I worked with a team in BLR, only one became close enough that we could discuss it. He himself was from one of the very highest sub-castes (which he taught me was trivially knowable from his surname) but very enlightened. I was shocked to discover that all but two or three out of about fifty colleagues were Brahmin[1]. It explained a lot of the dynamics I had already observed, like why one of the best engineers in the place had never been promoted or why some of them literally wouldn't even talk to another. Caste, especially Dalit vs. everyone else, still seems to be very much a thing. But, as you say, nobody wants to discuss it.

[1] That's the word he used. It might well have been shorthand for a more complex concept that he knew I wouldn't understand.

[_jgdh]

I've never had any trouble discussing this with European and American colleagues or owning up to my own privilege.

But I can see how many Indians would find it awkward to talk about, especially if they think that the caste system is on it's way out because things are better than they used to be. Some might feel that discussing it with non-Indians puts India in a bad light.

To which I say, it's not me who's painting India in a bad light, it's the people who are discriminating on the basis of caste in 2020. People who say "oh, I'm only against reservation and those who benefit from it" and treat such people terribly. And we can only get rid of this disease by shining a light on it.

[manifestdissent]

True story. I met this Indian woman while working out of the local hipster cafe. We had mutual friends. And ended up going out for lunch.

On the way back, she started asking questions about my background. They grew intensely personal. Until she was interrogating me on the sidewalk.

Unsatisfied with my responses, she just gave up and cut to the chase, "What's your mother's caste?"

Thanks to fairly unique circumstances I have to live with a plausible cover story. Because Indian people cannot stop asking questions. Where are you from? Where were you born? Why's your skin so pale? Why're you so tall? Where are your parents? What do they do? Where did you go to school? Why aren't you married?

What's worse is that the society is insular. Even in a big city, few people socialize outside of, in descending order of proximity, family > friends of the family > classmates from elementary school > people from their high school > college > (perhaps, sometimes) work.

I have met people who have gone through their entire life without ever meeting someone from a lower social class. Casual greetings with people who clean their homes don't count.

There's a lack of je ne sais quoi. A certain lack of creative energy. A kind of absence of the meeting of free radicals that sparks interesting ideas and art. Culturally, it's as if, the society has submerged itself in halon, determined to not let the sparks of creativity and genius spark.

This problem is so acute that every free radical I've met has done their very best to move away as soon as humanly possible.

I have no voice and yet I must scream

[cvhashim]

This sort of caste discrimination apparently even goes beyond tech. I’m quite ignorant of historical world ethnic/cultural issues I’ll admit. And despite me having some understanding of the general history of castes in India, to see this issue still present in the US after Indians immigrate is sad.

https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/no-escape-caste-these-s...

[srean]

Good that you were able to have such a conversation. I would request you not to generalize from one example though.

Different states in India differ in matters of caste substantially. In Bengal its mostly a non-issue, more so in metropolitan areas. Some from grand-parent generations might still give caste a thought, but for the rest I can bet that thoughts of caste rarely if at all cone to their mind.

To cement this idea with a concrete example, the Brahmin's that you heard about are supposed to wear this holy thread. Its supposed to be treated with great respect. There are procedures to ensure that the thread, for example, does not get offended when you take a pee break -- you get the idea. So in Bengal, in my dorm, I have seen them used to hang mosquito nets to tying leaky taps. Its just a f'ing piece of thread that someone's grandparent gets upset over if the person doesn't wear it, so the person wears it but treats it nothing more than just a thread that happened to be around.

Totally unrelated, I do hope that you start programming for the fun of it, just as much I hope that for myself.

[kamaal]

>>It explained a lot of the dynamics I had already observed, like why one of the best engineers in the place had never been promoted

Its not just promotions. It manifests every where. Job interviews, bonus payouts, onsite foreign work opportunities.

If you are a part of a minority group you are expected to be just too awesome compared to your peer groups to even qualify for basic things.

The whole system works in a way that you have to continually outperform your peer group to even qualify working at the current levels. When people say the system is merit based(It's not), they basically mean its a ruthless culling process where even small missteps from a minority person could mean the person losing years.

[adjkant]

Brahmin is the highest caste in said system, nothing too complex at face value.

https://www.swindia.us/the-caste-system-of-india/

[mcv]

It's important that companies are aware of this, take complaints seriously, inform their Indian employees that this is not acceptable, explain where and how to report this, and offer training to overcome these prejudices.

And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigious projects, etc), then the abuser should be demoted or fired.

If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company.

Also, maybe there should be some education projects and affirmative action for those Dalit communities.

[cvhashim]

This is why I scoff and roll my eyes at individuals who argue that tech is a meritocracy when discrimination between countrymen is happening even in companies like Google.

[signal11]

> If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company.

And if you want to practice caste discrimination at an Indian company — beware, caste based discrimination is India has been illegal since 1948, you will go to jail, and they’re definitely not the nice Scandinavian kind of jails.

PS. About education and affirmative action for Dalits... there are lots of such programmes. But clearly not enough to wipe this blot away.

[luckylion]

> And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigious projects, etc), then the abuser should be demoted or fired.

I agree, but as usual, I'm confused: should they not be demoted or fired when they abuse their power to discriminate against someone who is not Indian? Or is Indian, but of an equal or higher caste?

I totally agree with what you're saying, but the way you say it implies that everything else is okay.

> If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company.

We have castes in the West as well, we just call them classes and you can, theoretically, transition from one to another, but generally you won't and everybody is quite aware of each others class and the nuances within. It's in everything, the way you speak, dress, what you eat and drink, heck, even your name is usually a statement of class.

[neeleshs]

If any Indian (regardless of their caste) finds caste discrimination as bizarre, I don't know what world they live in. It is a fact. I am upper caste by birth, but means zilch to me.(Doesn't mean anything in the larger context, but saying it anyway). I cannot speak for most upper caste folks,I have no statistics to tell one way or the other. It's all personal experience or anecdotal.

But, I have seen shit happen in front my eyes, in my own home , in many many conversations. Anyone who is "upper caste" and says this is not real, have buried their sand in the head.

Discrimination in India is rampant, and on different dimensions. religion, caste, language, nationality (Don't get me started on how locals treated a few African students in my college back in India), skin color, financial status - the list goes on. But religion & caste take the crown.

[thatfrenchguy]

> For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it.

A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

[Loughla]

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted - maybe it's the flippant response? The message is correct, though.

The caste system in India sounds exactly like the class system in the US, only more formalized. In my area, there absolutely are surnames that you can associate with 'those' people, and who are, in my experience, passed over for jobs.

Maybe it's my ignorance, but doesn't a caste system whereby you are exposed to more privileges simply due to your birth sound exactly like a class system based on income whereby you are exposed to privilege simply because of your birth (because of your parents' income)?

[sneak]

> A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

Maybe in France, I don't know about that. But from what I've learned about the caste system, it's nothing like the class system in the US.

Sure, the US class system is (statistically speaking) heritable, but it doesn't follow you around for life, tied to your surname, determining who you can marry or what jobs you're allowed to get, or if you'll get beaten simply for walking into certain buildings or touching strangers.

US racism might be a more appropriate comparison.

[vinay427]

Isabel Wilkerson, author of "Caste" which is mentioned elsewhere in this thread, draws a fairly clear distinction between caste and class. It's succinctly summarized in her interview with Trevor Noah linked below, around 2:35, and I don't know if I agree but I think you'd find her explanation potentially interesting nonetheless. I tend to instinctively balk whenever people equate or simplify multiple concepts into a single idea, because this too often yields an oversimplification in my experience, and the nuances are usually worth preserving if they genuinely exist.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7m49DT8pPe0

[aaronblohowiak]

There is a VEEY well reviewed book called Caste that talks about USA, India and South Africa. It is next on my reading list.

[mrweasel]

Out of curiosity: Could an Indian of a lower caste change their name, or be named differently at birth, as to "fake" their way into a different caste?

[Ichthypresbyter]

This is why Sikhs are supposed to all have the same surname (Singh for men, Kaur for women). Sikhism has always been strongly opposed to the caste system- see, for instance, their tradition of offering free food to anyone who wants it as long as they will eat with everyone else there.

According to a Sikh friend, in practice, Sikhs are still aware of caste- in fact, Sikhs from a high-caste background are more likely to keep their family's original surname and add Singh/Kaur as a middle name.

[strikelaserclaw]

yea but they will never understand the cultural nuances that it takes to become part of the "in" group, and from reading these articles, it seems that "in" group nepotism is rampant in some places. A caste is not just a name, its a cultural legacy you inherit from your parents, their network and society. Even if you ignore the name part, there are some hidden advantages that are conferred to people of higher castes that probably can't be taken away.

[SkyBelow]

It would require far more than just changing one's name. It is somewhat like the difference between old money and new money, except in this case the lower case person doesn't even have the ability to buy the training and coaching that new money is able to (to say nothing of likely having to deal with many more poverty related issues). Accents, speech patterns, how you hold yourself, how you react to people interacting with you based on both their situation and their own caste will all be different.

[eqtn]

During the previous discussions some has mentioned that they converted to a different religion

[kamaal]

They often do that. Its called converting to a new religion.

Its one of the most politically hot topics in India for a while now.

[Florin_Andrei]

As someone who grew up in a different culture (so I look at the system as an outsider - I grew up in the EU, I live in the US, and a lot of my coworkers are Indian), the influence of something like a caste system is quite visible in many people who grew up in India. It's vague and sometimes barely-there, but definitely there quite a lot.

It's a set of assumptions: that someone's pigeonhole in the social structure somehow strongly defines the limits of their abilities; that in the org chart, wisdom always flows top to bottom, never the other way around; that the org chart itself is (and indeed MUST BE) set in stone; etc.

The system feels very rigid, especially for someone who grew up in an individualistic culture.

This is not about conscious, deliberate actions, it's about unconscious attitudes and assumptions.

I do not see any of this in people of Indian descent who grew up here. It's also much less typical of young people with a progressive mindset who grew up in India. But older folks and/or more conservative - yeah, it's clearly there.

I could be wrong, but I feel - the moment India is able to jettison this pattern, the whole country will experience some sort of major renaissance.

[raxxorrax]

I don't think it prudent to replicate it in nations with no connection to Hinduism.

Your strategy would reinforce the awareness of caste status.

I don't think non-Indians would even be able to discriminate by caste. Discrimination against Indians is perfectly possible of course.

[fmajid]

There is a strong racial component to the caste system, and thus it would fall within a protected category. A company would open itself up to liability if it willfully ignored the problem.

[sremani]

Even though Caste is associated with Hinduism. There is a huge section of Muslims and Christians who practice a derived version of Caste system in Indian subcontinent.

[_hhkc]

I've experienced some of my Indian coworkers criticize BLM, which was a bit surprising. I don't know what caste they belong to, though.

[neilk]

It's surprising to you because North Americans have gotten used to saying "people of color" as if they were all united.

Upper-caste Indians basically see themselves as people on top of the racial hierarchy. In many ways they identify far more strongly with British or American elites than with Dalits.

[heavyset_go]

Marginalized people speaking up or protesting bothers people with authoritarian personality traits because those acts are interpreted as attacks upon rigid social hierarchy.

It doesn't really have anything to do with the content of BLM's message, but everything to do with who is saying it, how they're saying it, and to whom.

[teachrdan]

> generations of segregated reproduction have selected for higher IQ in the higher castes

There is no natural selection going on here. People are born into a caste and, for all intents and purposes, their caste identity is fixed for the rest of their lives. The idea that these people have somehow developed a "higher IQ" over "generations" simply by being born to a particular caste makes no sense.

Furthermore, the arguments made in the article have nothing to do with poor performance, (possibly) correlating with a lower IQ. The article details specific examples of antisocial behavior by upper caste Indian workers against their lower caste peers.

[khrbrt]

Evolutionarily, it'd be the other way around.

If members of a high caste are guaranteed wealth and many children, then there is no selective pressure for intelligence.

Likewise, if lower caste members struggle to survive, then there is a strong selective pressure for intelligence and problem solving.

[draugadrotten]

Awesome troll even suggesting implicitly that it would be OK to discriminate based on objectively lower IQ.

You're missing the point completely. Equal opportunity has been replaced by equal outcomes - except for the 1%

[tomp]

Is doxxing OK on HN?

[breitling]

...and what came of the report to her employer?

Can't imagine any moral company tolerating this

[1024core]

> It’s not bizarre or far-fetched at all.

You do realize that one example (out of 1.2 Billion) is the definition of "far fetched".

If you want to claim that it is not "far fetched", you will have to provide 1000s of cases.

Edit: oh great, the downvote brigade is here. How about this anecdote: in grad school, I (an Indian, from the North of the country) was friends with a group of South Indians who all shared a house. We'd have brunches together, hang out on the weekends, etc. They all came from different schools; including one from IIT Madras. After nearly a year of friendship, in one late night conversation, one of the guys joked that the guy from IIT Madras was a "topper" (i.e., ranked highest in the entrance exam). I was surprised, because he seemed so down to earth. Turns out he had scored the highest among the reserved category students (but still ranked pretty highly); IOW, he was of a so-called "lower caste". It didn't bother me at all, and neither did it bother any of his housemates. We are still friends today, albeit over long distance.

So, does my anecdote cancel yours?