Yeah that's what I'm wondering... could decentralised water/power/sewer distribution scale? Like maybe not EVERYBODY has their own well/septic, but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one?
This sounds like a great model to try out in newly-built, 'experimental' communities. Retrofitting existing ones would require more cooperation among residents than you could achieve, I think, except in unusual situations.
I am sure there are large numbers of lower income people who would be willing to try something other than a crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood if the per-month costs were similar. You'd need to deal with transportation issues (i.e. better buses, shared small electric vehicles or bikes, etcetera) and some other things, but it could be a promising method to explore.
Some people might even be willing to try things like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-diverting_dry_toilet (incinerating toilets may be needed instead depending on the area) or agree to lower electricity usage for a reduction in monthly fees, among other things. I've been thinking about this idea for a number of years, and am somewhat surprised we haven't seen efforts toward it yet. Maybe I should do something.
Yeah probably tough and expensive to transition existing neighbourhoods to this model... but is abandoning the current infrastructure and starting fresh more expensive than maintaining the already expensive existing infrastructure? Don't know.
I do know London, England is build on top of many many layers of obsolete sewer systems from a millenium of city living. Sometimes its best to abandon and rebuild.
> Like maybe not EVERYBODY has their own well/septic, but maybe every 5 houses or whatever share one?
Anecdotally, it seems fairly common for people to have municipal water and their own septic system in more "exurb-y" areas. Two of the people I work with (different states) have that setup.
It seems to be common because water treatment facilities are more efficient at scale, whereas a septic is pretty easy to maintain yourself.
The space requirements are actually a decent amount lower than I originally expected [0, 1], so it could be plausible for individual lots to have their own septic systems (unless the area above the drainfield can't be used for safety/other reasons). Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems.
"Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems"
Capacity is the main thing I can think of. If you get dense enough (e.g. 8-story apartment blocks) you'd need a pretty big septic field right next to the housing. Now that's land you can't use for housing or offices. At some point it's more cost-effective to whisk that waste away to some low-value land to do the processing.
I don't know at what level of density that's true, though. It could be pretty high.
> could decentralised water/power/sewer distribution scale?
Not with conventional implementations and funding, but yes, scaling is technologically feasible at this time. However in the US, getting people to learn the necessary skills and discipline to maintain such systems to the needed baseline operating standards will remain a significant challenge.
Water collection and sanitation could be automated into a closed-loop system, but I've yet to see a COTS solution. Even if you commercialized it, you just move problems around: there would be a significant waste stream of filtration cartridges to handle when scaled up, for example. Cradle-to-cradle design and implementation of such systems is neither easy nor cheap.
You don't need the portability of lithium chemistry batteries, so I recommend redox flow chemistries, with some kind of solid state magnetohydrodynamic pump if possible.
While there are more active septic designs for smaller properties, they're much more expensive, and require more maintenance to keep running. From speaking with septic engineers and techs over the years, Americans have awful habits in general around sewer systems, and a lot of that keeps the septic industry thriving. A sustainable on-site treatment of human black water into safe compost compliant as EPA Class A biosolids would require people be much more diligent about ensuring pharmaceuticals for example, don't make it into the composting stream and instead go to incineration. Even if people do that, it gets expensive on a small scale. Or we come up with ways to automatically sample and test each individual deposit for pharmaceuticals. Which again, adds expense and more maintenance.
I have no doubt we can engineer the shit out the technical problems. I don't have good solutions for the assholes who are The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things, other than isolate myself into a Dunbar Number of like-minded and build our own systems.
Grids arose for a number of good reasons, and the systems design issues surrounding decoupling from them at scale are pretty thorny.
slfnflctd|5 years ago
I am sure there are large numbers of lower income people who would be willing to try something other than a crappy apartment in a bad neighborhood if the per-month costs were similar. You'd need to deal with transportation issues (i.e. better buses, shared small electric vehicles or bikes, etcetera) and some other things, but it could be a promising method to explore.
Some people might even be willing to try things like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine-diverting_dry_toilet (incinerating toilets may be needed instead depending on the area) or agree to lower electricity usage for a reduction in monthly fees, among other things. I've been thinking about this idea for a number of years, and am somewhat surprised we haven't seen efforts toward it yet. Maybe I should do something.
justanotherc|5 years ago
I do know London, England is build on top of many many layers of obsolete sewer systems from a millenium of city living. Sometimes its best to abandon and rebuild.
war1025|5 years ago
Anecdotally, it seems fairly common for people to have municipal water and their own septic system in more "exurb-y" areas. Two of the people I work with (different states) have that setup.
It seems to be common because water treatment facilities are more efficient at scale, whereas a septic is pretty easy to maintain yourself.
aw1621107|5 years ago
The space requirements are actually a decent amount lower than I originally expected [0, 1], so it could be plausible for individual lots to have their own septic systems (unless the area above the drainfield can't be used for safety/other reasons). Not sure if there are other factors that make centralized waste treatment systems preferable over individual septic systems.
[0]: https://www.washtenaw.org/1722/Sewage-System-Sizing [1]: https://inspectapedia.com/septic/Septic-Drainfield-Size.php
titanomachy|5 years ago
Capacity is the main thing I can think of. If you get dense enough (e.g. 8-story apartment blocks) you'd need a pretty big septic field right next to the housing. Now that's land you can't use for housing or offices. At some point it's more cost-effective to whisk that waste away to some low-value land to do the processing.
I don't know at what level of density that's true, though. It could be pretty high.
yourapostasy|5 years ago
Not with conventional implementations and funding, but yes, scaling is technologically feasible at this time. However in the US, getting people to learn the necessary skills and discipline to maintain such systems to the needed baseline operating standards will remain a significant challenge.
Water collection and sanitation could be automated into a closed-loop system, but I've yet to see a COTS solution. Even if you commercialized it, you just move problems around: there would be a significant waste stream of filtration cartridges to handle when scaled up, for example. Cradle-to-cradle design and implementation of such systems is neither easy nor cheap.
You don't need the portability of lithium chemistry batteries, so I recommend redox flow chemistries, with some kind of solid state magnetohydrodynamic pump if possible.
While there are more active septic designs for smaller properties, they're much more expensive, and require more maintenance to keep running. From speaking with septic engineers and techs over the years, Americans have awful habits in general around sewer systems, and a lot of that keeps the septic industry thriving. A sustainable on-site treatment of human black water into safe compost compliant as EPA Class A biosolids would require people be much more diligent about ensuring pharmaceuticals for example, don't make it into the composting stream and instead go to incineration. Even if people do that, it gets expensive on a small scale. Or we come up with ways to automatically sample and test each individual deposit for pharmaceuticals. Which again, adds expense and more maintenance.
I have no doubt we can engineer the shit out the technical problems. I don't have good solutions for the assholes who are The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things, other than isolate myself into a Dunbar Number of like-minded and build our own systems.
Grids arose for a number of good reasons, and the systems design issues surrounding decoupling from them at scale are pretty thorny.