One thing that always surprises me about gymnastics is how inherently sexist it is. For nearly all sports, the male version of the sport is identical to the female version. Maybe women don't lift as much, don't run quite as fast, or do shorter distances (like in speed skating), but the basics of the sport are the same. Not so in gymnastics: men and women do entirely different things. Men are all about upperbody strength, women are all about flexibility and elegance. They're basically completely different sports, which I guess goes a long way to explain why athletes peak at totally different ages.
What if a female gymnast wants to do the horizontal bar or other "male" events? And even when they do have the same event in name, like the floor, they're still different for unnecessary reasons. For example, women have music, men don't. Why?
Obviously there are biological reasons why women aren't as strong, maybe it's unreasonable to expect women to do a heavy event like the rings, but most events could be equally accessible to everybody. But the sport itself forces athletes into very gender-specific roles. I can't help but wonder if unifying the sport may help to reduce this kind of abuse as well.
The flexibility at least is a play to strengths in one of the few areas where men were at a disadvantage athletically. Women on average are more flexible and their lower spines retain more juvenile flexible as it is useful for a shift in center of mass with pregnancy.
Upper body strength was the male answer for "what can they do which is more impressive if they are higher mass and worse at physical flexibility"? The why may have something to do with performance peaks attracting more attention for a sport (I would have expected at least a niche for upper body strength events for women and flexibility for men) but that could also be a chicken and egg thing with culture.
There certainly is sexist baggage involving women being considered more "ornamental" though.
I played college volleyball about a decade ago and made the first team. We trained with the womens team on some days and as one of the more even sports - the chasm in athletic ability was insurmountable. So we mixed teams when playing and never one versus the other.
My point is, where one falls short, play to your strengths. Doubly so in a competitive environment. Nothing stopping female athletes from doing rings. Absolutely nothing. Just like there was nothing stopping women from joining the mens junior or senior VB teams.
>One thing that always surprises me about gymnastics is how inherently sexist it is. For nearly all sports, the male version of the sport is identical to the female version. Maybe women don't lift as much, don't run quite as fast, or do shorter distances (like in speed skating), but the basics of the sport are the same.
The rule differences between ice hockey for men and women are such that I've heard it said that they might as well be different sports.
Something is sexist when you create sex criteria. So the whole sport is sexist since you have distinguish between men and women categories in most of the disciplines.
It has nothing todo with gymanstics or womens, it's the whole highend sport at a young age, same with Ballet, Icehockey, Tennis, Cycling and playing piano. It should be banned and the parents and the coach punished. And ask you for what? Just for having a goldmedal for your goddamn country.
It seems like a good first step would be to set the minimum age to compete at world championships or the olympics at 16 or 17 or maybe even 20. Then delaying puberty wouldn't be a thing because everyone will have passed it.
> It seems like a good first step would be to set the minimum age to compete at world championships or the olympics at 16 or 17 or maybe even 20. Then delaying puberty wouldn't be a thing because everyone will have passed it.
Delaying puberty will still be a thing because people that end up competing at the top levels start training intensely long before they are eligible to compete.
Its not like someone wakes up one day and says "I think I'd like to be an Olympic gymnast", trains for a few months, and competes at the Olympics.
There have been multiple accusations of age falsification. If winning simply becomes a matter of faking a passport, several countries would be happy to do so.
I would think so. Part of the problem here is that they're trying to get these girls to win before puberty changes their body, which puts enormous time pressure on the training. If they're only allowed to compete from 18, all of those issues drop away.
Let’s not forget about the disgusting sexual abuse they have to suffer from, under the premise of medical treatments. They caught Nassar in 2018 but god knows how many others are still out there.
When my daughter came to me in tears and complained coach is yelling at her, I explained this is a good thing. This means coach is looking at her and is trying to correct her mistakes.
As pointed out in the article, 14- to 16-year-old girls often win gymnastics championships (and in fact nobody over the age of 20 has won the olympic all-around since 1972), whereas no man under the age of 20 has ever won an olympic all-around. Being a grown adult is a huge advantage in men's gymnastics and a massive disadvantage in women's.
(I have a kid of each gender in local gymnastics programs and I have to carefully keep this stuff in mind. It's great that the kids are strong, and gymnastics makes people absurdly strong, but I don't think I would ever let my daughter anywhere near a high-level competitive program.)
This is exactly the idea that the article explains over and over to refute. Women's gymnastics by the scoring, culture, traditions, and biology, has all the incentives pushing toward child abuse. It isn't just a matter of pruning out bad actors. It is a matter of restructuring the sport to prevent bad actors from becoming prominent.
mcv|5 years ago
What if a female gymnast wants to do the horizontal bar or other "male" events? And even when they do have the same event in name, like the floor, they're still different for unnecessary reasons. For example, women have music, men don't. Why?
Obviously there are biological reasons why women aren't as strong, maybe it's unreasonable to expect women to do a heavy event like the rings, but most events could be equally accessible to everybody. But the sport itself forces athletes into very gender-specific roles. I can't help but wonder if unifying the sport may help to reduce this kind of abuse as well.
Nasrudith|5 years ago
There certainly is sexist baggage involving women being considered more "ornamental" though.
vagrantJin|5 years ago
My point is, where one falls short, play to your strengths. Doubly so in a competitive environment. Nothing stopping female athletes from doing rings. Absolutely nothing. Just like there was nothing stopping women from joining the mens junior or senior VB teams.
TMWNN|5 years ago
The rule differences between ice hockey for men and women are such that I've heard it said that they might as well be different sports.
nix23|5 years ago
Let's talk about Beachvolleyball too.
artichokes|5 years ago
The same thing that happens if I want to be a movie star or heiress.
dawidw|5 years ago
Something is sexist when you create sex criteria. So the whole sport is sexist since you have distinguish between men and women categories in most of the disciplines.
mensetmanusman|5 years ago
OneGuy123|5 years ago
Women on the other hand like it, "biologicaly" as you say.
Why is it wrong to have different events for men and women?
nix23|5 years ago
jedberg|5 years ago
dragonwriter|5 years ago
Delaying puberty will still be a thing because people that end up competing at the top levels start training intensely long before they are eligible to compete.
Its not like someone wakes up one day and says "I think I'd like to be an Olympic gymnast", trains for a few months, and competes at the Olympics.
nitwit005|5 years ago
juniper_strong|5 years ago
ValentineC|5 years ago
HN discussion on that one:
1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21505600
2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21476304
TMWNN|5 years ago
mcv|5 years ago
shwoopdiwoop|5 years ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/well/live/pelvic-massage-...
hevelvarik|5 years ago
sumedh|5 years ago
Sometimes the kids hide the abuse from their parents.
helge9210|5 years ago
unknown|5 years ago
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andi999|5 years ago
188201|5 years ago
jeffbee|5 years ago
(I have a kid of each gender in local gymnastics programs and I have to carefully keep this stuff in mind. It's great that the kids are strong, and gymnastics makes people absurdly strong, but I don't think I would ever let my daughter anywhere near a high-level competitive program.)
unknown|5 years ago
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axilmar|5 years ago
Let's not confuse the issues and terms, please.
MereInterest|5 years ago
andeee23|5 years ago