A bit sad to see that you have to fill out a typeform to get access to the code. I'm sure if it is actually FOSS (GPL or MIT or such) then there will be public forks on gitlab or whatnot.
Looks cool though. Might be viable to adapt to different screen sizes too? I know the remarkable is already hackable, but can't hurt to have competing UI concepts there, right ? :)
I ask this with no malice: What makes people work on projects like this? I'm willing to bet that the phone is bound to fail and their OS will be doomed to obscurity. How do the creators not see this?
Three reasons I don't think it will work out:
1. A huge number of people use WatsApp, Facetime, Messenger, etc., for sending messages and making calls. This OS won't support any of these apps.
2. We may hate our phones at times but we use them for a variety of daily tasks, all of which are difficult on this phone: Navigation (Google Maps >>> Any other Sat Nav system), transportation (Uber, etc.), food delivery, information retrieval (Google, etc.).
3. Even if you wanted a minimalist phone, you could probably just get a cheap feature phone instead of this one.
I somewhat agree with your comment from the perspective of using e-ink as a replacement for mobile.
However, I do think an opportunity exists for us to use e-ink device in new ways.
I ordered a Boox Note Air on the weekend to replace my kindle (12 years old now) with something I can read and write on.
The Boox runs full android OS, but I really think the only things I'll need are note-taking, drawing, kindle app.
Is there an opportunity to really do something great in replacement of notebooks?
How about a new paradigm for what kids go to school with? The size of the bags kids are using to carry all their textbooks and notebooks is ridiculous. Of course, it breaks the model of the publishing industry, but screw that. The learning hardware is destroying kids backs.
How great would it be to go into an office meeting (when we're back in offices) and rather than having everyone sitting there with a laptop open, we have these thin e-ink devices where we can comfortably share data and notes between us.
Sure, there are millions of excuses for why these sorts of things can't happen, but I don't think an OS that is targeted at black and white, somewhat limited devices should be treated as not having value.
What if I want a minimalist phone that isn't cheap? So far my options are Light Phone and Punkt. MP-02. Not everyone is so tethered to consumption that they want all that stuff on their person at all times, but quality is still worth pursuing. I use calls, SMS, MMS, and data tethering. Sometimes an alarm clock. I don't want any of that other stuff, and I'd pay a lot for a good, high quality phone that focuses on the baseline and doesn't require me to offload everything to some megacorporation.
Not everybody can afford a smartphone. And "dumb" phones like this provide the much needed mobility and connectivity to low-income group of our society (especially in a developing country like mine). Apart from this, the other reasons to consider these phones is the long battery life, and the less distractions they offer.
> I'm willing to bet that the phone is bound to fail and their OS will be doomed to obscurity. How do the creators not see this?
Yes, the phone will fail. But not for the exact reasons you cited.
They will fail because they are targeting a niche market - people with good income who have chosen a minimalist lifestyle. And that's why it is priced at the nonsensical price of $314 dollar ("discounted" from the "original" price of $369). The pricing makes no sense when you consider that Nokia offers 4g capable dumb phones for $40 to $48.
I would love to dualboot a minimalist OS that is supported on my device (e.g. Galaxy S[6-10]), works for basic things like calls and sms, and doubles my battery life. Then, when I need the full-featured experience, I'd just boot into Android.
The reason this won't work is rather the device manufacturers, sadly. I agree with your conclusion that these OSes seem to be doomed to failure, but I strongly disagree with the premise.
The unstated part of crossing the chasm and everything that deals with new tech is there's potential social value in market failure.
Personally I'd rather spend my career at one Xerox Parc failed project after another instead of working on profitable but ultimately empty products
For some it's not about money or a career, it's about building new things
In an ideal world people like me would be academics. But that institution is also excessively career and status oriented so without many options, we run off to the private sector.
Your reaction helps solidify a heretical stance I've had recently, that money has been a corrupting influence on technology and has actually stagnated it by perversing the incentives towards strictly monetary goals without regard for the social. It's like we replaced traditional banking with casinos.
The people who went to the moon, built the atomic bomb and invented the internet did so on a modest government salary.
I don't think going back to SMS and GSM based phone calls is really a viable option. They are just too insecure. You can say a lot of things about mobile internet, but at least it made end-to-end encrypted communication the norm.
This idea is common but a strange one at least to me. Going back to GSM would of course be a regression due to their repeatedly broken crypto, but modern LTE networks have many desirable properties absent from Internet-based messaging.
Perhaps it matters less to a US user, but as a European the fact an intra-country communication need not traverse any border nor be observable by any non-domestic entity is a huge deal for me, due to much stronger data protection laws in these parts covering both message content and metadata
Then there is the trustworthiness of the communication medium itself. WhatsApp is being advocated in this thread, but WhatsApp is a massive chunk of unaudited code running on your handset that is published by an advertising company, code that by design steals your phonebook without telling you every time you run it. At least in the UK, telecom providers generally act for the most part as commodity infrastructure, we don't seem to have quite as many scummy behaviours as are reported in the US. Both approaches require a central counterparty with either absolute trust to protect your cleartext message in transit, or provide otherwise unaudited code claiming to protect the same.
The bottom line for me is probably who gets to keep the metadata, a US advertising company or a local telco. I am certainly happier with the latter.
The thing has Bluetooth though. I'm seriously considering getting one to see if I can get scuttlebutt running on it :D
That would be a realnice fit actually. Mostly disconnected, synced with other devices when physically close, private messages end to end encrypted, and the full OS/app stack being built to not be attention-hogging. :P
Everyone in this thread is talking about how this is just a user space on Linux without RTFA. It uses the FreeRTOS kernel, which isn’t Linux last time I checked.
Also, it specifies LTE in the specs. I think the GSM tethering is a mistype or mistranslation; I don’t see why they wouldn’t allow it to tether the LTE data.
I'm old enough to remember when announcements of new OSs centered on how it implemented multitasking, how it managed memory and how the filesystem worked.
The announcement focuses on an app and barely touched what's under it.
Most "OS" releases these days are not operating systems. They're new user space layers on top of Linux. Actually OS development doesn't happen much, and the word has been repurposed.
If you wanna do digital detox and still need a phone, get an used Motorola F3.
- It can't do more than talk and same very bare texting (Mudita already got a calendar, something that wants to get your attention and don't get me started on that mediation timer)
- costs almost nothing (Mudita Pure costs >300)
- flat and small, therefore easy to put away in any bag or pouch and forget
- doesn't has any big display where you need to take care of it
- upcycles an old phone for what is likely a, perhaps repeating, but still temporary use case
Sort of off-topic, but for digital detox I've found that a phone that doesn't at least support WhatsApp, Signal, and a few other Android apps would be useless as a phone for me. I can't remember the last time I've used my phone for something that doesn't involve data, so I would rather detox temporarily with no phone at all.
In case anyone has any suggestions: For a more sustainable long-term detox to avoid extensive screen time, I'm trying to find a very minimal Android device that can preferably be de-Googled (with Lineage or related Roms) but definitely at least supports a few basic Android applications but isn't very comfortable to use for just browsing. It's surprisingly difficult to find a small-display Android device these days...
I interpret this as a phone that can do the basics like agenda and such, but does them in an unintrusive way, and givesyou full control over when and how it's allowed to interrupt you. If so, that would definitely change the dynamics between me and my phone. Basically all apps on ios / android (modulo some positive exceptions) are out to grab my attention all the time, and the OSs make it quite hard to really control that.
I guess that would be more sustainable than trying to disconnect entirely.
Besides this, the link here is actually the OS, so this is actually OT.
I love the design - very clean! Loved the design of the website too. Would have been great to have a screenshot gallery or video with a demonstration though.
Not having Internet is both a feature as well as a problem. If I could have a phone which I can use for regular applications but which requires me to tether via USB etc to upload apps but can function without internet and GPS, I would actually consider it.
I quite like the visual design. The "No Internet" bit I understand, as a concept, but if it were hackable I'd at least add a syncable calendar and a weather forecast (those are the two things I look at every morning anyway).
There should be a non-SMS messaging app built into all those pure/light/offline phones. I have a lot of international friends and international texting is prohibitively expensive. Even if they would need a special app just to communicate with me, it would still be miles better than having no option at all. Same goes for VoIP calls, I don't care that it doesn't have WhatsApp/Telegram/Discord but I do care that there's no option to contact people from other countries without selling my kidney to afford it all.
Making a good general UI for E-ink is tough. Amazon would have been the ones to do it, but they put their attention to the Kindle Fire and left the regular Kindles as dedicated e-readers. Probably this was a good thing. Even so, I've noticed that tablet swipe gestures have made their way into the Kindle UI which just doesn't work with the slow refresh time of E-ink.
I like the idea of a non-intrusive phone, but this wouldn't be enough for me. So here is my wish list for a non-intrusive phone
- e-ink
- phone calls
- SMS (I don't send them, but I need them for 2FA)
- contact book synced with Google
- calendar synced with Google
- clock with alarms, timer and stopwatch
- weather
- music, it would be nice to use Spotify because I've invested a lot of time creating playlists but local files would do
- bluetooth to send music to speakers
- flashlight
- sound recording (for calls recording and voice notes)
- Whatsapp, it's my most used form of communication with family, friends and colleagues. But only text, no videos or images
Optional but nice:
- tethering
- QR codes store for things like tickets that I could send from another device
It would be enough for most of my day. I would have a second device for web browsing, maps and navigation, email, banking, QR reading, documents, gaming, etc., that I would only use when I really want to do those things.
I'm with you here. I think your list is pretty close to mine. The only exception is whatsapp and maps. I want to be able to navigate and I'm fine with just a list of directions. I'd add podcasts as a must have as well.
I was following the light phone 2 for a long time and ultimately decided not to buy it because I wanted access it from my desktop. I really like the approach they're going for here. Signed up for the beta so we'll see. If it doesn't work out, I'm just going to have to roll up my sleeves and make my own eink phone.
No internet. No internet?! If I can't check my whatsapp/Telegram messages on a phone, I might as well go without a phone - none of my friends are going to send me an SMS/a regular phone call. No internet is a bad idea.
It’s not ‘no internet’, it has 4G connectivity, and you can use it as an external modem. It’s just that they haven’t built it into the OS by default.
Personally my thoughts were more along the lines of: That’s a cool phone, but thank god the OS is open source so someone can add the connected apps we need.
I do like the premise but I would've expected a few more specs; battery life? water and drop resistance? It's clear they've spent a lot of time on the form (over self-indulgently perhaps) but I hope it's not at the expense of function
You can use a Kobo offline, see this guide [1]. A Kobo runs Linux under the hood, IIRC Android (probably some old version which is why I keep my WLAN offline and only allow on guest network. This also helps with battery). You can also install custom applications on it, for example Cool Reader [2].
A ReMarkable you can just SSH into. Which seems far more friendlier for customization, but its also a different price class and purpose.
I still haven't understood the advantages these custom mobile UIs have over a basic X11 DE with a software keyboard.
PalmOS had it's own GUI because the whole OS was this insane feat of software engineering and something like X11 didn't fit on the abstractions they built. The result was something that could run forever on a couple of AAA batteries. If you're just sticking things on top of X/Wayland/Linux anyway at least make it usable.
Rather than a "insane feat of software engineering" I would define PalmOS as rather "extremely simple", complexity-wise on the level of classic macOS despite appearing a decade later.
Right now, mobile stacks are usually even more complex that desktop stacks.
Last time I made a similar comment here, someone linked the 'Sxmo : Simple X Mobile'[1] for PinePhone and I'm returning the favour to anyone who needs it.
[+] [-] black_puppydog|5 years ago|reply
Looks cool though. Might be viable to adapt to different screen sizes too? I know the remarkable is already hackable, but can't hurt to have competing UI concepts there, right ? :)
[+] [-] tsar_nikolai|5 years ago|reply
[0] https://github.com/mudita [1] https://images.ctfassets.net/isxmxtc67n72/3tX0E1fLT8J9Twtao4...
[+] [-] traverseda|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] commonturtle|5 years ago|reply
Three reasons I don't think it will work out: 1. A huge number of people use WatsApp, Facetime, Messenger, etc., for sending messages and making calls. This OS won't support any of these apps. 2. We may hate our phones at times but we use them for a variety of daily tasks, all of which are difficult on this phone: Navigation (Google Maps >>> Any other Sat Nav system), transportation (Uber, etc.), food delivery, information retrieval (Google, etc.). 3. Even if you wanted a minimalist phone, you could probably just get a cheap feature phone instead of this one.
[+] [-] pedalpete|5 years ago|reply
However, I do think an opportunity exists for us to use e-ink device in new ways.
I ordered a Boox Note Air on the weekend to replace my kindle (12 years old now) with something I can read and write on.
The Boox runs full android OS, but I really think the only things I'll need are note-taking, drawing, kindle app.
Is there an opportunity to really do something great in replacement of notebooks?
How about a new paradigm for what kids go to school with? The size of the bags kids are using to carry all their textbooks and notebooks is ridiculous. Of course, it breaks the model of the publishing industry, but screw that. The learning hardware is destroying kids backs.
How great would it be to go into an office meeting (when we're back in offices) and rather than having everyone sitting there with a laptop open, we have these thin e-ink devices where we can comfortably share data and notes between us.
Sure, there are millions of excuses for why these sorts of things can't happen, but I don't think an OS that is targeted at black and white, somewhat limited devices should be treated as not having value.
[+] [-] stonogo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] webmobdev|5 years ago|reply
There is market for these kinds of phone. Check out the "Classic Phone" segment of Nokia - https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_in/classic-phones ... they've even recently released a 4g "dumb" phone.
Not everybody can afford a smartphone. And "dumb" phones like this provide the much needed mobility and connectivity to low-income group of our society (especially in a developing country like mine). Apart from this, the other reasons to consider these phones is the long battery life, and the less distractions they offer.
> I'm willing to bet that the phone is bound to fail and their OS will be doomed to obscurity. How do the creators not see this?
Yes, the phone will fail. But not for the exact reasons you cited.
They will fail because they are targeting a niche market - people with good income who have chosen a minimalist lifestyle. And that's why it is priced at the nonsensical price of $314 dollar ("discounted" from the "original" price of $369). The pricing makes no sense when you consider that Nokia offers 4g capable dumb phones for $40 to $48.
[+] [-] BossingAround|5 years ago|reply
I would love to dualboot a minimalist OS that is supported on my device (e.g. Galaxy S[6-10]), works for basic things like calls and sms, and doubles my battery life. Then, when I need the full-featured experience, I'd just boot into Android.
The reason this won't work is rather the device manufacturers, sadly. I agree with your conclusion that these OSes seem to be doomed to failure, but I strongly disagree with the premise.
[+] [-] kristopolous|5 years ago|reply
The unstated part of crossing the chasm and everything that deals with new tech is there's potential social value in market failure.
Personally I'd rather spend my career at one Xerox Parc failed project after another instead of working on profitable but ultimately empty products
For some it's not about money or a career, it's about building new things
In an ideal world people like me would be academics. But that institution is also excessively career and status oriented so without many options, we run off to the private sector.
Your reaction helps solidify a heretical stance I've had recently, that money has been a corrupting influence on technology and has actually stagnated it by perversing the incentives towards strictly monetary goals without regard for the social. It's like we replaced traditional banking with casinos.
The people who went to the moon, built the atomic bomb and invented the internet did so on a modest government salary.
[+] [-] fahrradflucht|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ralph87|5 years ago|reply
Perhaps it matters less to a US user, but as a European the fact an intra-country communication need not traverse any border nor be observable by any non-domestic entity is a huge deal for me, due to much stronger data protection laws in these parts covering both message content and metadata
Then there is the trustworthiness of the communication medium itself. WhatsApp is being advocated in this thread, but WhatsApp is a massive chunk of unaudited code running on your handset that is published by an advertising company, code that by design steals your phonebook without telling you every time you run it. At least in the UK, telecom providers generally act for the most part as commodity infrastructure, we don't seem to have quite as many scummy behaviours as are reported in the US. Both approaches require a central counterparty with either absolute trust to protect your cleartext message in transit, or provide otherwise unaudited code claiming to protect the same.
The bottom line for me is probably who gets to keep the metadata, a US advertising company or a local telco. I am certainly happier with the latter.
[+] [-] black_puppydog|5 years ago|reply
That would be a realnice fit actually. Mostly disconnected, synced with other devices when physically close, private messages end to end encrypted, and the full OS/app stack being built to not be attention-hogging. :P
[+] [-] jimmoores|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mromanuk|5 years ago|reply
Is that all FUD?
[+] [-] johnchristopher|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CobaltFire|5 years ago|reply
Also, it specifies LTE in the specs. I think the GSM tethering is a mistype or mistranslation; I don’t see why they wouldn’t allow it to tether the LTE data.
[+] [-] wojtekidd|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|5 years ago|reply
The announcement focuses on an app and barely touched what's under it.
[+] [-] cmrdporcupine|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bebna|5 years ago|reply
If you wanna do digital detox and still need a phone, get an used Motorola F3.
- It can't do more than talk and same very bare texting (Mudita already got a calendar, something that wants to get your attention and don't get me started on that mediation timer)
- costs almost nothing (Mudita Pure costs >300)
- flat and small, therefore easy to put away in any bag or pouch and forget
- doesn't has any big display where you need to take care of it
- upcycles an old phone for what is likely a, perhaps repeating, but still temporary use case
[+] [-] vinay427|5 years ago|reply
In case anyone has any suggestions: For a more sustainable long-term detox to avoid extensive screen time, I'm trying to find a very minimal Android device that can preferably be de-Googled (with Lineage or related Roms) but definitely at least supports a few basic Android applications but isn't very comfortable to use for just browsing. It's surprisingly difficult to find a small-display Android device these days...
[+] [-] black_puppydog|5 years ago|reply
Besides this, the link here is actually the OS, so this is actually OT.
[+] [-] zeckalpha|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkphilip|5 years ago|reply
Not having Internet is both a feature as well as a problem. If I could have a phone which I can use for regular applications but which requires me to tether via USB etc to upload apps but can function without internet and GPS, I would actually consider it.
[+] [-] rcarmo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] K2L8M11N2|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paleogizmo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bprieto|5 years ago|reply
- e-ink - phone calls - SMS (I don't send them, but I need them for 2FA) - contact book synced with Google - calendar synced with Google - clock with alarms, timer and stopwatch - weather - music, it would be nice to use Spotify because I've invested a lot of time creating playlists but local files would do - bluetooth to send music to speakers - flashlight - sound recording (for calls recording and voice notes) - Whatsapp, it's my most used form of communication with family, friends and colleagues. But only text, no videos or images
Optional but nice: - tethering - QR codes store for things like tickets that I could send from another device
It would be enough for most of my day. I would have a second device for web browsing, maps and navigation, email, banking, QR reading, documents, gaming, etc., that I would only use when I really want to do those things.
[+] [-] dubcanada|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewfcarlson|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewfcarlson|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lonesword|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aeolun|5 years ago|reply
Personally my thoughts were more along the lines of: That’s a cool phone, but thank god the OS is open source so someone can add the connected apps we need.
[+] [-] undefinednull|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aeolun|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ForHackernews|5 years ago|reply
Poor software support is a big stumbling block for these devices.
[+] [-] jack_riminton|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] okanesen|5 years ago|reply
* Battery: ~1600mAh
* Water resistance: IP54
[0]: https://mudita.com/products/pure/specs/
[+] [-] kilroy123|5 years ago|reply
https://www.thelightphone.com
[+] [-] sm4rk0|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fnoord|5 years ago|reply
Light Phone II is 300 USD.
There was a FOSS project announced on crowdfunding platform, called Blloc [1]. Its a launcher for Android, for minimal, distraction free use.
[1] https://www.blloc.com
[+] [-] ForHackernews|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m-p-3|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fnoord|5 years ago|reply
A ReMarkable you can just SSH into. Which seems far more friendlier for customization, but its also a different price class and purpose.
[1] https://kobo-offline.virgulilla.com/
[2] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222803
[+] [-] webmaven|5 years ago|reply
Does this actually have any ebook reading functionality? Skimming through, the closest thing seems to be "notes" .
[+] [-] swiley|5 years ago|reply
PalmOS had it's own GUI because the whole OS was this insane feat of software engineering and something like X11 didn't fit on the abstractions they built. The result was something that could run forever on a couple of AAA batteries. If you're just sticking things on top of X/Wayland/Linux anyway at least make it usable.
[+] [-] AshamedCaptain|5 years ago|reply
Right now, mobile stacks are usually even more complex that desktop stacks.
[+] [-] Abishek_Muthian|5 years ago|reply
[1]https://sr.ht/~mil/Sxmo/#strongsxmostrong-simple-x-mobile