Orlins: You focus a lot on, kind of Alipay or WeChat Pay. How does that change the landscape for AI in China versus the United States, where we still are heavily reliant on a credit card system that seems quite old and outdated when you're in China?
Lee: It's a very unique opportunity for China to leapfrog. The U.S. had the world's most leading transaction tool, which was the credit card, but it became outdated. It charges too much, it's inconvenient, it's only customer to merchant. In China, with WeChat and Alipay, anybody can pay anybody. We can do micro payments and there are no fees, almost no fees, so the 2% extra charge is almost like a tax on the American economy charged by the credit cards. But with respect to AI, now everybody, including WeChat and Alibaba, but also, if you build an app, you know who your customers are, and what they paid and why. And if you're a retail shop and people scanned you, you know who pays you and why. There are even beggars in the street holding up a sign, "Scan me and give me money," and they know who paid them and why. So I think this is creating a huge amount of data that will help AI.
Lee is a smart guy. But I think his missed one important point: It's not about fees. No it's not even about easy to use.
In China, technically anyone can setup a "business" account on Alipay with just one tap and then start to collect payment right way, the story is completely different if you have to deal with banks. Then with all that, you add the fact that not everybody here uses credit card which raises the bar for credit card adaption up yet again.
I'd recommend people who interested about the related development to checkout the DC/EP project. Which is aimed to be an alternative to Alipay and WeChat Pay, but backed by the banks.
I understand that we're talking about feeding "AI" data here, so it's kind of moot, but I'd like to point out anyway that most of us don't want the merchants to know who we are (or to feed the "AI" in general).
Why would I want to give up my various credit/debit cards and use a single app? I would be giving a single app all the payment power. This works well in a highly regulated Government controlled market. The EU and US allow anyone to compete. China does not.
A better and more realistic solution in the US is the personal bank to bank transfers people can easily do in the UK/EU.
The fun thing is that you have a number of ways to pay electronically in the US, PayPal and Venmo are pretty widespread.
What is missing is an effortless way of asking to pay, like by scanning a QR code. Contactless payments using NFC in cards and phones do not quite cut it, and require a terminal.
Haven't used Alipay but Wechat is really annoying because they get your Wechat contact info and text you ads. Other than that, yeah it blows away US payment system. Amazon Go store has potential to get us back on top, though.
Venmo, Paypal and other forms of digital payment are extremely popular. It's not as ubiquitous as WeChat but it's not some unknown quantity. The US has a hybrid system with mixed credit card and digital pay systems.
I am not sure if I share Mr. Lee's enthusiasm about this massive spending control in the hands of a single company and the government that routinely puts people in concentration camps. Also helping some AI is also not on my list of life priorities, delicately speaking.
This is not an IPO by a private company. This a wholly owned subsidiary of a government, just like Saudi Aramco. Jack Ma is a high ranking CCP member with government money, not a private businessman: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767
1) Jack Ma is neither the CEO nor the majority shareholder in Ant. [1]
2) Jack is one of > 91.2M party members in China. As are most high-ranking managers and professionals, it's simply a fact of life. [2]
Nothing about 1 or 2 makes Alibaba Group or Ant a state owned enterprise (SOE) more than any other company in China. Everything in the world need _not_ be late stage capitalist democracy. There are plenty of ways to attain success and happiness. Lastly, Ant isn't even IPOing in the West. If you disagree then vote with your wallet (or don't).
It was very frustrating to see, as a former Alibaba shareholder, Ant Financial get spun off with zero compensation or new share distribution. My primary reason for buying Alibaba in the first place was for Alipay.
It was a good learning experience though to be honest. Since then, I stay away from Chinese stocks on principle. I was lucky enough to be able to sell off my shares without losing anything this time, but who knows what could have happened.
I evaluated it for our company a few years ago (the entire Ant design system, not just React UI Components) and although everyone had heard of Alibaba few knew about Ant Financial (now the Ant Group) even though it's absolutely massive.
Funny how our 2 leading candidates, AntDesign and BluePrint, both come from less than "ideal" companies with similar baggage, though from opposite sides of the spectrum!
I use it in Hong Kong, it's very convenient to pay utility bills with. Some merchants also accept it for online payments, and you can pay with it at convenient stores, although Octopus card is far easier there.
I paid for my diner earlier by scanning a QR code. It's only something I do when I have forgotten my card, as it is much more of a bother than contactless.
If you want to learn more about Jack Ma's story I highly recommend Alibaba: The House That Jack Ma Built [1]. Chinese tech is this separate bubble that has grown independently from the rest of the world and it is fascinating to me.
Please don't post generic flamebait like this to HN, especially not on classic flamewar topics. These discussions are all the same at this point, which makes them tedious and off topic here.
[+] [-] wombatmobile|5 years ago|reply
https://www.ncuscr.org/media/podcast/uschinainsights/kai-fu-...
Orlins: You focus a lot on, kind of Alipay or WeChat Pay. How does that change the landscape for AI in China versus the United States, where we still are heavily reliant on a credit card system that seems quite old and outdated when you're in China?
Lee: It's a very unique opportunity for China to leapfrog. The U.S. had the world's most leading transaction tool, which was the credit card, but it became outdated. It charges too much, it's inconvenient, it's only customer to merchant. In China, with WeChat and Alipay, anybody can pay anybody. We can do micro payments and there are no fees, almost no fees, so the 2% extra charge is almost like a tax on the American economy charged by the credit cards. But with respect to AI, now everybody, including WeChat and Alibaba, but also, if you build an app, you know who your customers are, and what they paid and why. And if you're a retail shop and people scanned you, you know who pays you and why. There are even beggars in the street holding up a sign, "Scan me and give me money," and they know who paid them and why. So I think this is creating a huge amount of data that will help AI.
[+] [-] gruez|5 years ago|reply
they seem to have forgotten about europe where they have the same credit card networks, but capped interchange fees to around 0.3%.
>[...] So I think this is creating a huge amount of data that will help AI.
This already happens to an extent in the US. Your credit card transactions are sold to data brokers for analytics/market research purposes.
[+] [-] nirui|5 years ago|reply
In China, technically anyone can setup a "business" account on Alipay with just one tap and then start to collect payment right way, the story is completely different if you have to deal with banks. Then with all that, you add the fact that not everybody here uses credit card which raises the bar for credit card adaption up yet again.
I'd recommend people who interested about the related development to checkout the DC/EP project. Which is aimed to be an alternative to Alipay and WeChat Pay, but backed by the banks.
[+] [-] dmos62|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wil421|5 years ago|reply
A better and more realistic solution in the US is the personal bank to bank transfers people can easily do in the UK/EU.
[+] [-] nine_k|5 years ago|reply
What is missing is an effortless way of asking to pay, like by scanning a QR code. Contactless payments using NFC in cards and phones do not quite cut it, and require a terminal.
[+] [-] neves|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 01100011|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peacefulhat|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jorblumesea|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hesarenu|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] x87678r|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] valuearb|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dicomdan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goatinaboat|5 years ago|reply
If you aren’t paying, then you are the product.
[+] [-] piokoch|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trophycase|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bofadeez|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tanilama|5 years ago|reply
It doesn't IPO in Western countries anyway.
[+] [-] peacefulhat|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paxys|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cepp|5 years ago|reply
2) Jack is one of > 91.2M party members in China. As are most high-ranking managers and professionals, it's simply a fact of life. [2]
Nothing about 1 or 2 makes Alibaba Group or Ant a state owned enterprise (SOE) more than any other company in China. Everything in the world need _not_ be late stage capitalist democracy. There are plenty of ways to attain success and happiness. Lastly, Ant isn't even IPOing in the West. If you disagree then vote with your wallet (or don't).
[1]: https://www.alibabagroup.com/en/ir/pdf/160614/12.pdf
[2]: https://www.statista.com/topics/1247/chinese-communist-party...
[+] [-] partingshots|5 years ago|reply
It was a good learning experience though to be honest. Since then, I stay away from Chinese stocks on principle. I was lucky enough to be able to sell off my shares without losing anything this time, but who knows what could have happened.
[+] [-] arusahni|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nogabebop23|5 years ago|reply
Funny how our 2 leading candidates, AntDesign and BluePrint, both come from less than "ideal" companies with similar baggage, though from opposite sides of the spectrum!
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cfontes|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] radihuq|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kleton|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gruez|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eunos|5 years ago|reply
Too bad it won't be available to non-Chinese users anytime soon.
[+] [-] woutr_be|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tepix|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ButWhatFor|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spcebar|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] QuietZelda|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _-___________-_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sjg007|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gruez|5 years ago|reply
Advantages:
* cheap, no need for a dedicated terminal
Disadvantages:
* requires internet connection for both parties (credit cards only require the merchant to be connected)
* cellphone is a single failure point (eg. losing it, battery running out, dropping it), whereas you can carry spare credit cards
* scanning is worse ux than tapping
[+] [-] tokai|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sct202|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lemax|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eunos|5 years ago|reply
https://emerging.substack.com/p/chasing-ant
[+] [-] ryanar|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25817524-alibaba
[+] [-] wcerfgba|5 years ago|reply
https://996.icu/#/en_US https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU
[+] [-] abc-xyz|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dang|5 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906708.
[+] [-] batt4good|5 years ago|reply