There's really no excuse for this. How is it that Apple wants to tightly integrate their hardware and software but then seemingly miss testing major OS updates on all supported hardware?
Apple needs to fix their QA, and fast. No amount of marketing can undo the damage I've seen over the last few years.
The same way that installer is broken for at least 5 or more years, hitting infinite loops resulting in users rebooting till finally upgrade or install passes through.
Tight integration between OS and hw is mostly used to half-arse firmware interfaces, with huge amounts of "quirks" surfaced by hackintosh enthusiasts.
This type of problem has been around for a decade. Once an Apple product is no longer produced, driver support completely falls by the wayside. There is simply no direct business value to make sure the update works well on all devices. I have a 2020 Intel Macbook Air and I am going to be extremely conservative upgrading to Big Sur, and in fact may not do it at all since Apple seems to support security updates for years on older releases.
It's disturbing to see an OS update seemingly do something with the BIOS to render the machine completely inoperable. I wonder if the EFI firmware on Macs is just as fragile as some PCs, and something like this happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11008449
If that was what happened, and you were living in a place like Shenzhen, there's a chance you could simply go to one of the many repair shops around and have the BIOS reflashed in a few minutes while you wait, for <$10USD, and be back to working again.
Of course, Apple is heavily anti-right-to-repair and this might not even be an option in the future... and naturally, the reasons they give are "for security" -- securing their profits, that is.
The other is the overall "opaqueness" of Apple products, which reminds me of this classic Douglas Adams quote: "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair."
It's common for macOS updates to also update EFI and other firmware. My guess is that there's some sort of bug with either the new firmware or the firmware update process… as opposed to EFI state somehow being corrupted while updating unrelated parts of the OS (which is what happened in your link).
These days, Windows automatically installs firmware updates as well. The old PC status quo, where most users would never receive firmware updates at all, does have the advantage of avoiding issues like this. But it also has many disadvantages, including security risks.
This will be an interesting postmortem. Perhaps the EFI firmware contained incompatible firmware for this HDMI chip? Or maybe removing it bypasses a buggy bit of firmware?
The poster says the update somehow broke their IO IC. That seems unlikely. It's more likely that the update includes new firmware for that chip which contains a bug. In theory, when Apple identify the cause they can update their software so this won't happen for future upgrades. In the meantime, I'm sure they can offer compensation to those with bricked devices who can choose to either put that towards a new computer or send it in for repair.
I’m curious, why do people jump onto a new OS release as soon as it becomes available? Especially on machines they are using professionally.
Between bugs in the OS itself, bugs in apps, and developers who lag behind on OS support (looking at you DAW and audio plug-in devs) it will probably be a year before I try this upgrade myself.
Maybe because your computer immediately starts nagging you to do it, and the messaging from the popular tech media is "stay up to date because hackerz"
I use Windows but I jump on every new release. I like new stuff and I have backups. If it goes bad I just reformat and restore. I have only been burned once.
Isn’t security the biggest reason for most?
Also I work for a medium sized company and at least on a windows domain with GPO, they can lock down which windows updates are applied. Does anything like that exist for MacOS shops? Can IT control what is allowed to be applied and what is not?
The update did take longer than indicated. At some points I wondered if both my iMac and mbp were not locked up, but as I was doing other things I just let them take their time. I wonder if those people rebooted mid update or some
Average time between when a security bug is introduced in the linux kernel and when it detected is 5 years. [0] But because people don't update their shit, 99.9% of exploits in the wild involve bugs that were patched over a year ago. [0]
If apple fixed a security bug in big sur, I'd like to update sooner rather than find out in a CVE next month that I should have actually upgraded ASAP.
That said, waiting at least a few days to see if any problems shake out is probably a good idea.
Now I sort of regret an apple store visit a year or two ago.
A family member was in school and had a few-year-old macbook air that had a black screen. We took it to apple and they told me they could send it away to have it fixed for $700 or we could buy a new one for just a little more. And well, school.
So we decided on the new one.
And in for a penny, in for a pound. We had to keep going.
We needed to upgrade, so we needed dongles. I think thunderbolt 2 cable + thunderbolt3 to tb2 dongle. and of course a tb3 to usb adapter.
So power up the old machine (it still works), connect to new machine, upgrade over firewire and we're good.
I should watch youtube and fix the old one. it has 2 regular usb ports + an sd card reader, so it's more useful.
But I still have a bad taste in my mouth. $700 for a black screen? I think they really do raise the repair price all the way to a new one because they can.
I appreciate good snark. However, you get bonus points if you add something substantial to the discussion. For example, my advice is to avoid upgrading to a new OS without a backup that can be easily re-installed when the installation goes south.
I have a late 2013 Macbook Pro. This update bricked it. I have a tendency to install most Apple releases when they are first available, even though there are often problems that are usually fixed with a few updates.
I'm sometimes able to boot into Internet Recovery mode (Command-Option-G). Unfortunately, it seems like the only option is to reinstall Big Sur, which doesn't fix the problem.
Hopefully once Apple fixes this issue, I will be able to install the updated version and get it working again. If not, this machine is 7 years old and more or less on its last legs, but I'm still somewhat disappointed.
I'm so sorry to hear it's bricked; thank you for warning me not to install the update on mine. Is yours a 13" model? I'd like to know if it breaks 15" models too.
Are you able to boot with Shift-Option-⌘-R into Recovery Mode from an older version?
I know that every release of Mac OS X/OS X/macOS has had issues, but the last decade or so seems to be a huge downturn on the Mac hardware and the Mac OS by Apple. The Mac OS has truly become like Windows of the past, where upgrading to a new version is recommended only after SP1 (or even SP2).
There are comments elsewhere that are just victim blaming and victim shaming the people who upgraded on seeing the prompt that comes up. Apple will, in its usual style, never admit to the issue nor offer free repair to the affected (bricking the HDMI chip seems to be the cause, as per some threads on Apple’s discussion forums). Apple has once again dropped the ball, and neither Tim Cook nor Craig Federighi seem eager on solving these problems, and during the current COVID-19 period, this is just unforgivable.
For once, I’d like to see some senior executive in Apple publicly state “We’re sorry we messed up, we will make it right” and then do the right thing. That couldn’t even happen in a dream I suppose.
Reading here about bricked MBPs. Could someone clarify for me. If one swaps out the SSD with the current OS and puts in a blank replacement and then do the update. If it fails will the MBP be bricked or can one just swap in the other SSD to get it operational with the older OS. Or can the update really brick it because hardware is flashed? If that's the case could that be re-flashed by someone with the right equipment and knowledge. Some people have upgraded to Big Sur on their 2011 and mid 2012 MBPs. What is the risk of bricking then?
I managed to install Big Sur on an "unsupported" 15" retina 2012 using Patched-Sur.dmg without any issues, perhaps that's the way for 2013/14 ones as well now?
Does anyone know how to downgrade the firmware of my Macbook Pro 15" (2014)?
I ran the Big Sur Beta 1 with it on an external SSD drive. Since then, the standby mode on the internally installed macOS 10.11 does not work anymore. At some point, the system freezes while the fans spin on full speed, indefinitely until powering down with a long-press of the eject key.
One of my current machines is a late 2013 13-inch MBP. No problems so far with Big Sur. Of course, my anecdata are no better or worse than anyone else’s.
my late-2013 15" mbp upgraded with no issues, but I do recall reading prior to I stalling and noting that any older, or smaller model of that age was not supported. most of the reports I've read seem ti concern the smaller model and I'm left wondering what did they expect?
this is pitty, because as users might blame apple now. the outcome may be, apple dropping support for older device much earlier. which is bad for everybody.
The article literally tells you what to take away from it:
> Until it is clear what may be causing the issue and Apple releases a fix, late 2013 and mid 2014 13-inch MacBook Pro may wish to hold off on installing macOS Big Sur .
A backup doesn’t do you much good if the machine is bricked.
> If you don’t back up your stuff all bets are off
Yes I always plan ahead incase the OS becomes corrupted. I just assume that an OS will fail at some stage, and I have prepared so many times setting up a new OS from scratch I could nearly do it blindfolded.
The trick is to 'rehearse' a clean install of an OS repeatedly so that it doesn't feel so harrowing when it does fail (and I've had plenty of actual crashes over the course of my daily computing adventures, covering different OSes like Linux, macOS, Windows).
[+] [-] fbelzile|5 years ago|reply
Apple needs to fix their QA, and fast. No amount of marketing can undo the damage I've seen over the last few years.
[+] [-] p_l|5 years ago|reply
Tight integration between OS and hw is mostly used to half-arse firmware interfaces, with huge amounts of "quirks" surfaced by hackintosh enthusiasts.
[+] [-] fauigerzigerk|5 years ago|reply
What I do find surprising though is that there is no bulletproof rollback mechanism.
[+] [-] mattoxic|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bgorman|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] userbinator|5 years ago|reply
It's disturbing to see an OS update seemingly do something with the BIOS to render the machine completely inoperable. I wonder if the EFI firmware on Macs is just as fragile as some PCs, and something like this happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11008449
If that was what happened, and you were living in a place like Shenzhen, there's a chance you could simply go to one of the many repair shops around and have the BIOS reflashed in a few minutes while you wait, for <$10USD, and be back to working again.
Of course, Apple is heavily anti-right-to-repair and this might not even be an option in the future... and naturally, the reasons they give are "for security" -- securing their profits, that is.
The other is the overall "opaqueness" of Apple products, which reminds me of this classic Douglas Adams quote: "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair."
[+] [-] comex|5 years ago|reply
These days, Windows automatically installs firmware updates as well. The old PC status quo, where most users would never receive firmware updates at all, does have the advantage of avoiding issues like this. But it also has many disadvantages, including security risks.
[+] [-] lights0123|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmastrac|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spuz|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deeblering4|5 years ago|reply
Between bugs in the OS itself, bugs in apps, and developers who lag behind on OS support (looking at you DAW and audio plug-in devs) it will probably be a year before I try this upgrade myself.
[+] [-] throwaway201103|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rubicon33|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] discreditable|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dimeatree|5 years ago|reply
A huge pet peeve.
[+] [-] bigmattystyles|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mobilemidget|5 years ago|reply
The update did take longer than indicated. At some points I wondered if both my iMac and mbp were not locked up, but as I was doing other things I just let them take their time. I wonder if those people rebooted mid update or some
[+] [-] fortran77|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spacemanmatt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Lt_Riza_Hawkeye|5 years ago|reply
If apple fixed a security bug in big sur, I'd like to update sooner rather than find out in a CVE next month that I should have actually upgraded ASAP.
That said, waiting at least a few days to see if any problems shake out is probably a good idea.
[0]: https://paragonie.com/blog/2016/10/guide-automatic-security-...
[+] [-] sccxy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m463|5 years ago|reply
A family member was in school and had a few-year-old macbook air that had a black screen. We took it to apple and they told me they could send it away to have it fixed for $700 or we could buy a new one for just a little more. And well, school.
So we decided on the new one.
And in for a penny, in for a pound. We had to keep going.
We needed to upgrade, so we needed dongles. I think thunderbolt 2 cable + thunderbolt3 to tb2 dongle. and of course a tb3 to usb adapter.
So power up the old machine (it still works), connect to new machine, upgrade over firewire and we're good.
I should watch youtube and fix the old one. it has 2 regular usb ports + an sd card reader, so it's more useful.
But I still have a bad taste in my mouth. $700 for a black screen? I think they really do raise the repair price all the way to a new one because they can.
[+] [-] chmaynard|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dlevine|5 years ago|reply
I'm sometimes able to boot into Internet Recovery mode (Command-Option-G). Unfortunately, it seems like the only option is to reinstall Big Sur, which doesn't fix the problem.
Hopefully once Apple fixes this issue, I will be able to install the updated version and get it working again. If not, this machine is 7 years old and more or less on its last legs, but I'm still somewhat disappointed.
[+] [-] peterburkimsher|5 years ago|reply
Are you able to boot with Shift-Option-⌘-R into Recovery Mode from an older version?
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204904
What about Thunderbolt disk mode? (hold T at startup). Or booting from an external drive?
[+] [-] mritun|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newscracker|5 years ago|reply
There are comments elsewhere that are just victim blaming and victim shaming the people who upgraded on seeing the prompt that comes up. Apple will, in its usual style, never admit to the issue nor offer free repair to the affected (bricking the HDMI chip seems to be the cause, as per some threads on Apple’s discussion forums). Apple has once again dropped the ball, and neither Tim Cook nor Craig Federighi seem eager on solving these problems, and during the current COVID-19 period, this is just unforgivable.
For once, I’d like to see some senior executive in Apple publicly state “We’re sorry we messed up, we will make it right” and then do the right thing. That couldn’t even happen in a dream I suppose.
[+] [-] melling|5 years ago|reply
I’d like to wait until the second ARM cycle before upgrading my 2013 MBP.
I miss being able to pull a CD off the shelf and doing a fresh install.
[+] [-] dangus|5 years ago|reply
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372
[+] [-] RyckP|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitL|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xenonite|5 years ago|reply
I ran the Big Sur Beta 1 with it on an external SSD drive. Since then, the standby mode on the internally installed macOS 10.11 does not work anymore. At some point, the system freezes while the fans spin on full speed, indefinitely until powering down with a long-press of the eject key.
[+] [-] theobeers|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fattybob|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahesh_rm|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finchisko|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Hammershaft|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finchisko|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dangus|5 years ago|reply
An unknown percentage of millions of a particular product have failed, news at 11.
Seriously, I don’t know what anyone is supposed to take out of articles like this.
If you don’t back up your stuff all bets are off, regardless of what device you own or whether you even decide to upgrade the software on it.
[+] [-] thedanbob|5 years ago|reply
> Until it is clear what may be causing the issue and Apple releases a fix, late 2013 and mid 2014 13-inch MacBook Pro may wish to hold off on installing macOS Big Sur .
A backup doesn’t do you much good if the machine is bricked.
[+] [-] blindm|5 years ago|reply
Yes I always plan ahead incase the OS becomes corrupted. I just assume that an OS will fail at some stage, and I have prepared so many times setting up a new OS from scratch I could nearly do it blindfolded.
The trick is to 'rehearse' a clean install of an OS repeatedly so that it doesn't feel so harrowing when it does fail (and I've had plenty of actual crashes over the course of my daily computing adventures, covering different OSes like Linux, macOS, Windows).
[+] [-] fortran77|5 years ago|reply