My wife and I just moved from Orange County, CA to Detroit, MI this last August.
We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit.
In Vegas the concern for masks started to wane. By Utah, no fucks were given and pretty much not a single fuck was given until we crossed the Mackinac Bridge into the lower peninsula of Michigan.
When I say no fucks were given - I mean that pretty much no one around me cared about wearing a mask, social distancing, etc. Hotels would participate out of corporate necessity. We drove hundreds and hundreds of miles sometimes and were the only people in stores with masks on. Sometimes I felt like an outsider alien, being stared at by the people around me. I was surprised yet not surprised at the same time.
So the surge and issues the comminuties up there are facing don't surprise me in the least.
It's actually the state governments that's at fault here. Not the specifically the people. Let me tell you I was in back-country Oregon recently, some of the MOST republican places within Oregon, not going to name drop the county. Anyway, the Oregon state government is very much democratic (cause you know Portland). But because of that, even the republican counties are under a mask order. And the extremely red counties, people are actually wearing masks all over the place. Grocery stores even are employing someone to just stand there and either hand a cheapy surg. mask or tell them to put one on.
So what I'm saying is that regardless of what people WANT to do, the state has the power and push to get people to do it. And this is why we need Biden in office yesterday.
I spent a weekend in Oklahoma last month (October 10-11), and was unable to enjoy myself because so few people were wearing masks, observing anything like distancing, etc.
I saw a Carls Jr. employee wearing a corporate-supplied t-shirt that used "maskhole" to describe anyone not wearing a mask... and he was not wearing a mask, just like all the other employees.
The hotel itself was the only place that seemed to be taking the pandemic seriously, so we retreated there, ate takeout, and left early.
The current spike in Oklahoma[0] does not surprise me at all.
I'm very pro-mask but cases are skyrocketing everywhere, even in countries like France and Italy where masking is the norm. I don't presume to know how to fix the issue, but virologist knew this was going to happen -- it is called seasonal forcing[1]. It's disturbing to me that there are people in the US that dont believe COVID-19 is real (I think you can blame the administration for that), but I'm not sure the spikes are surprising.
A few weeks ago we drove from Hendersonville, NC (by Asheville) down through South Carolina and Georgia. We were the only folks in gas stations wearing masks, and received a few chuckles when people saw us wearing them. Your comment of feeling like an outsider alien really resonates.
I had exactly the same experience driving from Baltimore to Seattle this June.
There were a good amount of masks in Pennsylvania, but in Ohio and Indiana it was as if pandemic didn't exist. Hotel employees didn't understand my reluctance to squeeze into a small space to pick up a to-go breakfast, and made snarky comments along the lines of "am I far enough for you sir?"
Madison, WI was much better, but starting from La Crosse all the way through Minnesota and North Dakota plains it was as if you were living in a different reality.
It depends quite a bit on where you are in any particular state. We did a similar move in May and I found that rural gas stations had close to zero mask usage, but in any larger city people were wearing masks. Some tourist hotspots (e.g. Moab) also have good mask compliance, perhaps because local businesses are desperate to avoid a full shutdown.
FWIW, I live in Utah, and in my urban neighborhood I actually see very good mask compliance. Further into the suburbs adherence drops.
Deaths per capita from COVID for the States you referred to, as reported by State health sites mid November 2020:
Nevada: 1 in 1600
Utah: 1 in 4500
Montana: 1 in 2200
North Dakota: 1 in 1300
Minnesota: (outside of the 7 county Twin Cities) 1 in 3700
Michigan: (outside of Detroit area) 1 in 3600
In comparison
Where you moved from (Orange County CA)
1 in 2000
Where you moved to (Michigan/Detroit area Wayne/Detroit City/Oakland/Macomb) 1 in 350, not 1 in 3500, that’s one in three hundred and fifty.
If you moved to someplace six times deadlier (from a COVID standpoint), I’m guessing you have bigger problems to worry about than the COVID public health posture of those States you travelled through...
and scroll down to the "Can Our Health System Handle the Spread?" and look at the concentric rings of new infections/million radiating out of North and South Dakota.
This lines up very well with the parent comment's observations.
Meanwhile, here I am in the "anarchist jurisdiction" of Seattle and 90%+ of the people I see are wearing masks, socially distancing, and taking the scientific authorities seriously.
My experience on a similar trip was that virus diligence bottomed out in the Dakotas. I went to a restaurant, and their mask warning said something to the effect of "please wear a mask, if you don't we'll assume you have a health condition." Of course, the restaurant was filled to capacity without a mask in sight.
Last time I had to hit the road, I noticed that the social distancing/mask wearing travelers were avoiding towns and eating/relaxing at highway rest stops.
I live in Chicago, and masks are the norm everywhere. Definitely indoors, and to a lesser degree outdoors. We rented a house in Wisconsin for a weekend in the fall, and culturally there was a big difference. Went to pick up a pizza and the outdoor patio was packed, drinking beer and watching college football. There were some people wearing masks, but it was not the norm. We were definitely in the minority.
I had the exact same experience on a trip to Tahoe a few months ago. My girlfriend and I needed to get away, so, we booked a hotel and just stayed in for the weekend. We didn't see one single other person wearing a mask who wasn't some sort of restaurant server. We got our food to go.
While the SF Bay Area is much better than most of the country, it's still annoying seeing people here not use masks outside of their homes, or wear them improperly.
With masks we can get back to normal relatively quickly, but people just need to wear them
When are we going to stop playing the blame game in regards to COVID? When it's cases in middle America surging, observers are "not surprised". How can this comment be taken as anything but scorn and disdain for rural Americans? It's repugnant.
Where was this same sentiment when places like NYC were getting swamped with Covid? Anyone?
I'm so damn tired of this holier-than-thou approach to COVID, and life in general. It gets nobody anywhere, except for making the person casting aspersions feel better than the ones they're looking down on.
If anything, this pandemic sure has made people show their true colors. Always a good thing, I suppose
Watching the divergent responses by governors & states who, more generally, trust scientific experts (E.g., Hogan in Maryland, Inslee in WA), vs governors who don't...
I'm glad I live in WA. If I lived in one of those other states, I would look for work, then move when I found it. Family ties, whatever; wouldn't matter. It's a clear breakdown of competent government; time to leave for a better place. For myself and even more, my kid. Not particularly related to urban/suburban/rural divides. Nor per se even Dem vs GOP.
rather than moralizing angrily ('fucks'), why not try to hone in on what you're worried about exactly? were you really in danger?
if you'd have focused more on the lack of distancing indoors, that might have been a legitimate concern. but masks are for show in most places, at most times, and your focus on them indicates a retreat to symbolism rather than effect. the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread.
the one common place they would help, the private social gathering, is where they're donned the very least, because masks have strong connotations of mistrust, which is antithetical to socializing. so masks won't save us, no matter how much force is put behind them. even in countries commonly cited for high mask usage, other more primary mitigative measures are what led to propagation control, not masks. masks are marginal.
walking through a lobby/store or sitting at a table in a restaurant with your family isn't a significant risk, no matter what the other patrons are doing, as long as there's a little distance between (no, the virus is not floating around in significant concentrations to probabalistically infect you from across the room; it falls to the ground and dies quickly). the only other person you should worry about there is your server, who, out of at least "corporate necessity", will likely be wearing a mask, a decent use of masking as someone who interacts closely with lots of strangers (rather than, say, outside, where they're wasted).
this kind of moralizing is not out of a cohesive worry for others, but a divisive fear (anger is a primal reaction to fear). so why are we so fearful and anxious? deconstructing that would be a more fruitful discussion than dwelling so much on the anxiety itself.
My friend works in the covid ICU here in Michigan and told me yesterday that she's seeing a dramatic increase in patients who are getting angry at her and still believing that covid is not real. When she asks where they may have caught it, they sometimes say at a wedding with 100 people where no one was wearing masks.
I can't imagine how emotionally taxing it was to be a healthcare worker attending to people with covid in the beginning, but at least then they received a lot of gratitude from their patients. I cannot fathom how these healthcare workers must feel after 8 months of this and then getting yelled at by patients who don't think this is real. I almost don't even want to imagine how much pain they might be feeling.
I don’t know how these healthcare workers do it. Why would I put my physical and mental health in danger to save people who are that selfish? I suspect many of them need the job. But those who do it out of a sense of duty are better people than I am I guess.
Politics seems to be a factor here, but I wonder how much of this has to do with popular culture.
Over the last 20 years we've been bombarded with metric tons of Apocalypse porn, a lot of it focused on killer viruses.
Most of those movies are unrealistic to put it mildly. Zombies. Deserted cities. Rotting corpses on sidewalks. Visible, palpable nauseating death.
This pandemic is nothing like those movies. I know of not a single pop culture depiction that looks anything like what we have now, except maybe the movie Contagion. And that's really a stretch.
So a lot of people have a problem when they see dire predictions and statistics that bear no relationship to what their own five senses are telling them.
There's also the problem of previous pandemics that sounded the alarm, but amounted to little in the US. SARS-CoV-1 and the Swine Flu.
All of this leaves the US with a population primed to expect a very unrealistic kind of pandemic, and already skeptical from previous false alarms. Throw in a president who not only sympathizes with the "hoax" perspective, but actively encourages it, and it should maybe not be surprising that we are where we are.
This is what happens when politics becomes religion, then pollutes things where religion should have no place, namely science.
I just recovered from Covid, and I can tell you although some symptoms indeed are similar to a normal flu, and although I wasn't heavily hit by the virus, there are others that I never experienced in my life, like squishing a fresh basil leave right under my nose and smell absolutely nothing, or eating potatoes that tasted like cardboard. Only somebody whose critical thinking has been completely annihilated could think there wasn't something serious going on.
Back in March, we had ~40k new cases per day, and were seeing ~3k deaths per day.
Today, we have ~140k new cases per day, but our deaths seem to be ~1k per day, and haven't risen much with rise in cases since September.
What explains this? Were we not testing as much in March, and really our cases were ~200k per day? Or were the populations that got sick in March somehow different than today?
I feel like I've seen versions of this story pop up throughout the year, and it seems that others have too [0]. I guess I remain skeptical as to whether this actually happened until more proof can be provided.
While politics are being hotly debated I came here to say that I am again and again fascinated by the ability of the human mind to delude itself.
You might be quick to argue that these patients aren't smart, and there will likely be a correlation, but being smart does not protect you from delusion.
This is evidenced by a number of Nobel prize winners who have gone on to peddle pseudo-science. E.g. Kary Mullins, 1993 Nobel prize in chemistry for the PCR technique, went on to deny the link between HIV and AIDS [1]. This New York Times article has more examples [2].
So there is a non-zero chance that you and I might find ourselves in similar situation of denial, and we shouldn't be too quick to judge.
To set the perspective for those not familiar, the population of the state is close to 900k, roughly the same as the city of San Francisco. The normal pace of all-cause deaths is about 24 per day, so with COVID-19 killing off 15 people per day it is probably the leading cause of death in that state today.
In the US we seem to either focus on the medical crisis or the economic crisis. I wish we would focus on both.
How I understand it, how to resolve this would require medical interventions (shutdowns, testing, tracing, therapies, vaccines, etc) and economic interventions (stimulus, deferrals, forgiveness, etc) and yet we seem to mostly be doing the medical ones and getting pushback on it.
I could be wrong on this, but I think one of few institutions in this country that can provide economic interventions is the US Congress. They provided one stimulus bill that helped to provide the economic safety net while we worked on the medical safety net. It shocks and angers me that they haven't provided another one.
I struggle to see why they don't provide more economic stimulus. HN, can you help me understand why Congress isn't providing more financial help to the country?
More precisely, the majority of the US Senate (republican) opposes another large COVID bill. In contrast, the majority of the US House (democrat) has proposed new bills at between $2-3 trillion.
The GOP is currently under control of the current President. Until he leaves, they will not act independently. After January 20 (and after the Georgia Senator runoffs are over), republicans will fear Trump's wrath less. But will that be enough to shift those politicians' sentiment? Only the impact of enough lives lost to COVID in the next two months will tell.
I have three small children who have not been sick ONCE since the lockdowns started. They barely have seen another child, let alone played with them in close proximity. Do you think this is good news? No, it actually puts them at much higher risk of childhood leukemia and that scares me much more than them getting covid 19[1].
Articles like this strike me as propaganda. You can believe that covid 19 is real and covid 19 is deadly but still be against lock downs, despite what the propaganda would have you believe. Our actions have consequences. There's no free lunch here.
At this point my sentiments can be summed up thusly[0][1]. Although I'm the fortunate few who could work remotely -- and I've been doing so since the beginning of the year -- my job[2] still bounds me to CONUS. I'm beginning to entertain the thought of quitting so I could move to one of the few Asian countries that takes COVID-19 seriously.
The absurdity of the irrationality at play here is just surprising. It's like the bystander effect, except it's all about being right and also involves risking yours and other people's lives. Unbelievable.
Obviously, it isn't right to be rude to nurses but it probably also isn't right to sneer at people on their deathbed who don't want to accept that they're dying or really understand why, and blame them for their disease even though we have no idea how they got it.
I think some people dying in hospitals from COVID have a right to be mad at the medical system. Did these patients get any of the 5+ antiviral or immunomodulatory drugs with published successful RCTs? Did they get prophylactic antithrombotics? Did they get good advice on a healthy diet and medical care throughout their life? Probably not, and I don't think a judgmental tone towards them helps anything.
Though, sadly, some people here that are going to see that, combined with seeing "news" in the domain, and will start preaching it as fact to their children: "Dont worry, news says it's just like a flesh wound."
[+] [-] whalesalad|5 years ago|reply
We decided to drive the northern route. Heading through Vegas, Utah, Yellowstone and Montana. Then onward through the plains of North Dakota and Minnesota. Turning north we entered Wisconsin and finally the UP (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan. After a few days exploring we turned south to Detroit.
In Vegas the concern for masks started to wane. By Utah, no fucks were given and pretty much not a single fuck was given until we crossed the Mackinac Bridge into the lower peninsula of Michigan.
When I say no fucks were given - I mean that pretty much no one around me cared about wearing a mask, social distancing, etc. Hotels would participate out of corporate necessity. We drove hundreds and hundreds of miles sometimes and were the only people in stores with masks on. Sometimes I felt like an outsider alien, being stared at by the people around me. I was surprised yet not surprised at the same time.
So the surge and issues the comminuties up there are facing don't surprise me in the least.
[+] [-] coding123|5 years ago|reply
So what I'm saying is that regardless of what people WANT to do, the state has the power and push to get people to do it. And this is why we need Biden in office yesterday.
[+] [-] pwinnski|5 years ago|reply
I saw a Carls Jr. employee wearing a corporate-supplied t-shirt that used "maskhole" to describe anyone not wearing a mask... and he was not wearing a mask, just like all the other employees.
The hotel itself was the only place that seemed to be taking the pandemic seriously, so we retreated there, ate takeout, and left early.
The current spike in Oklahoma[0] does not surprise me at all.
0. https://mackuba.eu/corona/#oklahoma_united_states.daily?tren...
[+] [-] misiti3780|5 years ago|reply
[1]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339321846_Impact_of...
[+] [-] tedmcory77|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JaakkoP|5 years ago|reply
There were a good amount of masks in Pennsylvania, but in Ohio and Indiana it was as if pandemic didn't exist. Hotel employees didn't understand my reluctance to squeeze into a small space to pick up a to-go breakfast, and made snarky comments along the lines of "am I far enough for you sir?"
Madison, WI was much better, but starting from La Crosse all the way through Minnesota and North Dakota plains it was as if you were living in a different reality.
[+] [-] mrosett|5 years ago|reply
FWIW, I live in Utah, and in my urban neighborhood I actually see very good mask compliance. Further into the suburbs adherence drops.
[+] [-] onecommentman|5 years ago|reply
Nevada: 1 in 1600
Utah: 1 in 4500
Montana: 1 in 2200
North Dakota: 1 in 1300
Minnesota: (outside of the 7 county Twin Cities) 1 in 3700
Michigan: (outside of Detroit area) 1 in 3600
In comparison
Where you moved from (Orange County CA)
1 in 2000
Where you moved to (Michigan/Detroit area Wayne/Detroit City/Oakland/Macomb) 1 in 350, not 1 in 3500, that’s one in three hundred and fifty.
If you moved to someplace six times deadlier (from a COVID standpoint), I’m guessing you have bigger problems to worry about than the COVID public health posture of those States you travelled through...
[+] [-] michaelbuckbee|5 years ago|reply
https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/
and scroll down to the "Can Our Health System Handle the Spread?" and look at the concentric rings of new infections/million radiating out of North and South Dakota.
This lines up very well with the parent comment's observations.
[+] [-] munificent|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freewilly1040|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dharmab|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] posix_compliant|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] padseeker|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmiller2|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chaostheory|5 years ago|reply
With masks we can get back to normal relatively quickly, but people just need to wear them
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kev_da_dev|5 years ago|reply
Where was this same sentiment when places like NYC were getting swamped with Covid? Anyone?
I'm so damn tired of this holier-than-thou approach to COVID, and life in general. It gets nobody anywhere, except for making the person casting aspersions feel better than the ones they're looking down on.
If anything, this pandemic sure has made people show their true colors. Always a good thing, I suppose
[+] [-] pnathan|5 years ago|reply
I'm glad I live in WA. If I lived in one of those other states, I would look for work, then move when I found it. Family ties, whatever; wouldn't matter. It's a clear breakdown of competent government; time to leave for a better place. For myself and even more, my kid. Not particularly related to urban/suburban/rural divides. Nor per se even Dem vs GOP.
[+] [-] phkahler|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nemoniac|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdfkkikig|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Claudus|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] matz1|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cltby|5 years ago|reply
[0] https://outbreak.info/epidemiology?location=METRO_42660%3BME...
[+] [-] clairity|5 years ago|reply
if you'd have focused more on the lack of distancing indoors, that might have been a legitimate concern. but masks are for show in most places, at most times, and your focus on them indicates a retreat to symbolism rather than effect. the primary appeal of masks is for quelling fear and anxiety, not preventing spread.
the one common place they would help, the private social gathering, is where they're donned the very least, because masks have strong connotations of mistrust, which is antithetical to socializing. so masks won't save us, no matter how much force is put behind them. even in countries commonly cited for high mask usage, other more primary mitigative measures are what led to propagation control, not masks. masks are marginal.
walking through a lobby/store or sitting at a table in a restaurant with your family isn't a significant risk, no matter what the other patrons are doing, as long as there's a little distance between (no, the virus is not floating around in significant concentrations to probabalistically infect you from across the room; it falls to the ground and dies quickly). the only other person you should worry about there is your server, who, out of at least "corporate necessity", will likely be wearing a mask, a decent use of masking as someone who interacts closely with lots of strangers (rather than, say, outside, where they're wasted).
this kind of moralizing is not out of a cohesive worry for others, but a divisive fear (anger is a primal reaction to fear). so why are we so fearful and anxious? deconstructing that would be a more fruitful discussion than dwelling so much on the anxiety itself.
[+] [-] jimkleiber|5 years ago|reply
I can't imagine how emotionally taxing it was to be a healthcare worker attending to people with covid in the beginning, but at least then they received a lot of gratitude from their patients. I cannot fathom how these healthcare workers must feel after 8 months of this and then getting yelled at by patients who don't think this is real. I almost don't even want to imagine how much pain they might be feeling.
[+] [-] enumjorge|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] aazaa|5 years ago|reply
Over the last 20 years we've been bombarded with metric tons of Apocalypse porn, a lot of it focused on killer viruses.
Most of those movies are unrealistic to put it mildly. Zombies. Deserted cities. Rotting corpses on sidewalks. Visible, palpable nauseating death.
This pandemic is nothing like those movies. I know of not a single pop culture depiction that looks anything like what we have now, except maybe the movie Contagion. And that's really a stretch.
So a lot of people have a problem when they see dire predictions and statistics that bear no relationship to what their own five senses are telling them.
There's also the problem of previous pandemics that sounded the alarm, but amounted to little in the US. SARS-CoV-1 and the Swine Flu.
All of this leaves the US with a population primed to expect a very unrealistic kind of pandemic, and already skeptical from previous false alarms. Throw in a president who not only sympathizes with the "hoax" perspective, but actively encourages it, and it should maybe not be surprising that we are where we are.
[+] [-] squarefoot|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BrianOnHN|5 years ago|reply
I believed HN was the smartest publicly available forum. It made sense that the users here would go on to be leaders at innovative companies.
Something changed around 2016 and has accelerated since 2018.
Seeing the "COVID denial" comments in this thread is exactly what I'm talking about.
It's just too bad.
[+] [-] SnowProblem|5 years ago|reply
Back in March, we had ~40k new cases per day, and were seeing ~3k deaths per day.
Today, we have ~140k new cases per day, but our deaths seem to be ~1k per day, and haven't risen much with rise in cases since September.
What explains this? Were we not testing as much in March, and really our cases were ~200k per day? Or were the populations that got sick in March somehow different than today?
[+] [-] jdhn|5 years ago|reply
[0] https://twitter.com/annbauerwriter/status/132853834817300480...
[+] [-] Pyramus|5 years ago|reply
You might be quick to argue that these patients aren't smart, and there will likely be a correlation, but being smart does not protect you from delusion.
This is evidenced by a number of Nobel prize winners who have gone on to peddle pseudo-science. E.g. Kary Mullins, 1993 Nobel prize in chemistry for the PCR technique, went on to deny the link between HIV and AIDS [1]. This New York Times article has more examples [2].
So there is a non-zero chance that you and I might find ourselves in similar situation of denial, and we shouldn't be too quick to judge.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis#Contrarian_scienti...
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/weekinreview/28johnson.ht...
[+] [-] Diederich|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeffbee|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimkleiber|5 years ago|reply
How I understand it, how to resolve this would require medical interventions (shutdowns, testing, tracing, therapies, vaccines, etc) and economic interventions (stimulus, deferrals, forgiveness, etc) and yet we seem to mostly be doing the medical ones and getting pushback on it.
I could be wrong on this, but I think one of few institutions in this country that can provide economic interventions is the US Congress. They provided one stimulus bill that helped to provide the economic safety net while we worked on the medical safety net. It shocks and angers me that they haven't provided another one.
I struggle to see why they don't provide more economic stimulus. HN, can you help me understand why Congress isn't providing more financial help to the country?
[+] [-] randcraw|5 years ago|reply
The GOP is currently under control of the current President. Until he leaves, they will not act independently. After January 20 (and after the Georgia Senator runoffs are over), republicans will fear Trump's wrath less. But will that be enough to shift those politicians' sentiment? Only the impact of enough lives lost to COVID in the next two months will tell.
[+] [-] mike_h|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ed25519FUUU|5 years ago|reply
Articles like this strike me as propaganda. You can believe that covid 19 is real and covid 19 is deadly but still be against lock downs, despite what the propaganda would have you believe. Our actions have consequences. There's no free lunch here.
1. https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/child-leukaemia-linked-reduce...
[+] [-] RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u|5 years ago|reply
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXK03FHVsHk&t=26
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW9WGibEF04&t=266
[2] My company's COVID-19 response so far is excellent, but it doesn't help when (seemly) no one else gives a crap.
[+] [-] joshxyz|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] analyte123|5 years ago|reply
I think some people dying in hospitals from COVID have a right to be mad at the medical system. Did these patients get any of the 5+ antiviral or immunomodulatory drugs with published successful RCTs? Did they get prophylactic antithrombotics? Did they get good advice on a healthy diet and medical care throughout their life? Probably not, and I don't think a judgmental tone towards them helps anything.
[+] [-] cjbenedikt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] usefulcat|5 years ago|reply
/s
[+] [-] whoomp12342|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BrianOnHN|5 years ago|reply
Though, sadly, some people here that are going to see that, combined with seeing "news" in the domain, and will start preaching it as fact to their children: "Dont worry, news says it's just like a flesh wound."
[+] [-] RickJWagner|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bangelo|5 years ago|reply