I'll just note that the link between amyloid and alzheimers isn't concrete and is actually an incredibly controversial area of research[0]. The most recent attempt at treating alzheimers via amyloid is not going so well[1]. So, the causality implied by this article (poor sleep -> amyloid buildup -> alzheimers) isn't necessarily on the strongest theoretical footing.
People will be tempted to infer causation here, but it's important to note that no evidence of causation is presented. It is most likely that some third condition causes both poor sleep and amyloid-b accumulation (since correlation usually doesn't indicate causation).
I agree with your main point and was going to write something like this. But "most likely" is likely unjustified. It could be a 3rd factor that causes both, but its likelihood is unknown.
Causation is often treated as a binary outcome in the popular press, more recent attempts at adding nuance to that via statistics aren't much better. Hard to come up with solutions or alternatives but speaking personally I felt humbled at my own paltry understanding when reading this[1] reference.
Yeah, but that's true with all long term nutrition and lifestyle studies, since it's impossible to test for causation with any degree of rigor (I don't even know what a long term double blind study would look like).
So, yes, correlation does not imply causation; it does still imply correlation. Even if a third variable, if you're getting poor sleep, you're more likely to have higher Amyloid-β build up
You joke, but my mum's mind has died from Alzheimer's and I'm literally having anxiety attacks induced from that leaving me to extremely poor sleep patterns.
Her father had Alzheimer's (undiagnosed AFAIK), and my mum had poor sleep patterns for sure (though not as bad as mine are, I think).
If there's truth in this then somewhat ironically, yes, there's a perpetuation there.
I hesitate to support HN's obsession with random Alzheimer's theories, but there's been a lot of research lately on the glymphatic system, vessels that clean waste protein out of the brain during sleep. This study is in line with that research.
Based on this, if you are at risk for Alzheimers (your 23andme report shows this), then one of the most important things you can do today is to religiously track your sleep and make sure you get enough deep sleep daily.
In my anecdotal experience, if you don't get enough deep sleep for a sustained period of time, you start showing minor cognitive defects - e.g mixing up words, not being able to write long, irritability. Tracking sleep and 'catching up' makes all this go away.
This is especially important for people who are caffeine sensitive, but drink a lot of caffeine. You end up getting 5-6 hours of sleep nightly, and have this constantly mounting cumulative sleep deficit.
I understand your desire to help here but it's important to understand these kinds of attitudes can be counter-productive. My saving grace after several months of difficulty sleeping a decade ago was a book called "Say Goodnight to Insomnia" where they systematically break down why most of what you've written here is incorrect. Within a week of reading the book breaking away from many believing many of the things you've written above I was finally able to sleep well and have ever since.
From the description:
My insomnia program achieves its remarkable results because it is based on a simple yet powerful concept: insomnia can only be treated by addressing all the underlying causes. In most instances, the causes of insomnia are thoughts and behaviors (habits) that are learned and can be unlearned. Some examples include:
- Attitudes and beliefs about sleep
- Negative, stressful thoughts about insomnia
- Feelings of loss of control over sleep
- Inadequate exercise or exposure to sunlight
- Going to bed too early or sleeping too late
- Trying to control sleep rather than letting it occur naturally
- Negative responses to stress
- Lying awake in bed, frustrated and tense
"...Based on this, if you are at risk for Alzheimers (your 23andme report shows this), then one of the most important things you can do today is to religiously track your sleep and make sure you get enough deep sleep daily."
Getting enough deep sleep is probably good general advice anyway, but it's as-yet unclear if Alzheimer's or amyloid-β plaque buildup is caused by poor sleep; or if a third condition causes both poor sleep and amyloid-β buildup, in which case addressing the underlying cause is what will help, not religiously tracking sleep. Not enough information to say, yet.
Here is my first thought when reading this kind of studies about sustained poor sleep:
Did anyone do a study on parents? Are all (where all is not 100% but around me pretty close to that) parents going to suffer from Alzheimer.
I am saying this because with few notable exceptions (like N=2) all my friends, including myself and my wife, slept poorly at least during the first year of their child and sometimes up until second year. I think this counts as sustained poor sleep.
So either I am living in a bubble and I should add this to the list of stressful things I feel (I read) I am not doing right as a parent, or nature decided at one point to select children of parents predisposed to alzheimer.
[+] [-] vikramkr|5 years ago|reply
[0]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05719-4
[1]https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/biogen-s-alzheimer-s...
[+] [-] tomcam|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asdfasgasdgasdg|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rendall|5 years ago|reply
I agree with your main point and was going to write something like this. But "most likely" is likely unjustified. It could be a 3rd factor that causes both, but its likelihood is unknown.
[+] [-] andrewjl|5 years ago|reply
[1] https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-oxford-handbook-...
[+] [-] lostcolony|5 years ago|reply
So, yes, correlation does not imply causation; it does still imply correlation. Even if a third variable, if you're getting poor sleep, you're more likely to have higher Amyloid-β build up
[+] [-] bamboozled|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|5 years ago|reply
Her father had Alzheimer's (undiagnosed AFAIK), and my mum had poor sleep patterns for sure (though not as bad as mine are, I think).
If there's truth in this then somewhat ironically, yes, there's a perpetuation there.
Sorry, to bring the town down.
[+] [-] nonce42|5 years ago|reply
The wikipedia page gives a good background on the glymphatic system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6512/50.abstract https://science.sciencemag.org/content/342/6156/373
[+] [-] markessien|5 years ago|reply
In my anecdotal experience, if you don't get enough deep sleep for a sustained period of time, you start showing minor cognitive defects - e.g mixing up words, not being able to write long, irritability. Tracking sleep and 'catching up' makes all this go away.
This is especially important for people who are caffeine sensitive, but drink a lot of caffeine. You end up getting 5-6 hours of sleep nightly, and have this constantly mounting cumulative sleep deficit.
[+] [-] someelephant|5 years ago|reply
From the description:
My insomnia program achieves its remarkable results because it is based on a simple yet powerful concept: insomnia can only be treated by addressing all the underlying causes. In most instances, the causes of insomnia are thoughts and behaviors (habits) that are learned and can be unlearned. Some examples include: - Attitudes and beliefs about sleep - Negative, stressful thoughts about insomnia - Feelings of loss of control over sleep - Inadequate exercise or exposure to sunlight - Going to bed too early or sleeping too late - Trying to control sleep rather than letting it occur naturally - Negative responses to stress - Lying awake in bed, frustrated and tense
[+] [-] rendall|5 years ago|reply
Getting enough deep sleep is probably good general advice anyway, but it's as-yet unclear if Alzheimer's or amyloid-β plaque buildup is caused by poor sleep; or if a third condition causes both poor sleep and amyloid-β buildup, in which case addressing the underlying cause is what will help, not religiously tracking sleep. Not enough information to say, yet.
But, yes, everyone get a good night's sleep!
[+] [-] eli|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gls2ro|5 years ago|reply
Did anyone do a study on parents? Are all (where all is not 100% but around me pretty close to that) parents going to suffer from Alzheimer.
I am saying this because with few notable exceptions (like N=2) all my friends, including myself and my wife, slept poorly at least during the first year of their child and sometimes up until second year. I think this counts as sustained poor sleep.
So either I am living in a bubble and I should add this to the list of stressful things I feel (I read) I am not doing right as a parent, or nature decided at one point to select children of parents predisposed to alzheimer.