Here is my basic understanding of Indian music: The northern and southern parts have their own styles but with overlaps. What's amazing is that Indian classical music has no key. There is no absolute sense of middle C or whatever. It is relative to the tuning of the drone. I don't have a strong background in music, but this seems to get rid of the complexity of the notation system in the west with a much more fluid aspects - pick a note and make it the root. Off you go. That's the key you're in.
Furthermore, I find the construction of these musical scales (correct me if I am wrong but there is no analog in western classical music of what a raga is) very interesting. Going up in the scale is different than going down and there are some key phrases that identify a raga. Then its all about interpretation.
Is there any specific tabla percussion associated with a Raga?
> What's amazing is that Indian classical music has no key. There is no absolute sense of middle C or whatever. It is relative to the tuning of the drone
Yes, but practically there are standard pitch zones based on the tunability of certain instruments, particularly percussion.
> Going up in the scale is different than going down and there are some key phrases that identify a raga. Then its all about interpretation.
Sometimes but not always. Most ragas are the same ascending and descending. They are more like the western modes system.
> Then its all about interpretation.
There is actually a huge body of fixed compositions, for both melodic and rhythmic instruments, especially in Carnatic and Dhrupad traditions. Of course improvisation still plays a more important role vs. western classical music, but it is driven by a set of standard canonical themes.
> Is there any specific tabla percussion associated with a Raga?
Not formally, but as one develops as an Indian classical percussionist, you develop an ear for what sorts of rhythmic passages pair with certain types of melodic structures. For example, the rapidly rolling rhythmic structure known as a Rela pairs with steady fast pulsating melodic patterns.
In terms of the actual type of percussion instrument there is a strong pairing, however. Tabla in particular is used in the Khyal style (the most prominent style of North Indian classical music and what you have likely been listening to), and is also used extensively in folk music. The Pakhawaj, a much lower pitch drum, is used with the Dhrupad style. Carnatic percussion, however, comprises a much larger variety of instruments, prime among them and closely related to the aforementioned Pakhawaj is the Mridangam.
> Is there any specific tabla percussion associated with a Raga?
I have recently started tabla, so I can perhaps answer correctly. Whenever you play a piece on a melodic instrument, like sitar, it has a cyclic nature, where after X notes you come back to the same "sum" note.
The tabla player matches this cyclic nature. X is commonly 16, so then the tabla player will play in "teen taal". This is any percussion of 16 beats (or 32/64/128 beats) that obey a very particular structure. For teen taal the structure being that notes 9-12 are played without the left tabla (no bass).
It has a 'key' it's just not standard. It doesn't matter though.
What it does is make use of specific scales, or one scale, in particular, the minor scale or maybe one of it's variants.
The problem is actually ... they stay in that one scale, forever. This is a limitation of this music.
This music is: take a scale, and have someone play a very long, intuitive solo overtop in that one key, effectively one chord. The structure is really quite limited unfortunately.
>What's amazing is that Indian classical music has no key.
That's pretty much the same as hitchhikers tuning their guitars by ear with no perfect pitch skill. Anything within a couple of steps is good enough.
What fascinates me is that they are ok with staying in the same chord for the entire repertoire, that some perceptions (i.e. minor scales/chords are "sad" while major ones are "happy") seem to be universal.
> What's amazing is that Indian classical music has no key. There is no absolute sense of middle C or whatever. It is relative to the tuning of the drone
European music actually was largely relative too until keyboard instruments (organs and later pianos) became common and popular which forced standardizaton. In North Indian classical, you can see the popularity of the harmonium in recent years driving a similar effect.
Singers in popular western music often transpose scales freely. Many live performers tune half down or full down vs. their studio recordings and many singers transpose their songs down as they age.
> I find the construction of these musical scales (correct me if I am wrong but there is no analog in western classical music of what a raga is) very interesting. Going up in the scale is different than going down and there are some key phrases that identify a raga.
Yes-ish. If you look at the scales in different "modes" of western music, you'll find they do correspond to foundational ragas in Indian classical music (eg. Ionian = Shankarabaranam, Aeolian = Nata Bhairavi, Mixolydian = Harikamboji etc) . The core raga in Carnatic classical
(maya-mayava-gowla) has the same notes as the double harmonic scale (think Misirlou from Pulp Fiction). The ragas with different notes going up and down or having fewer than 7 notes are considered derived or synthetic ragas and some artists still create new ragas.
However, as you correctly recognise ragas are not themselves scales. It's more correct to think of ragas as frameworks to present and improvise on scales. There is a concept of "pakad" for example as it's called in Hindustani classical which is a characteristic sequence of notes for a raga etc. This is easiest to spot and understand this if you listen to recordings by top artists in Raga Jog - it comes in the avarohana (descending notes).
> Then its all about interpretation.
"Freedom within a framework" is how I'd best describe it. A typical Hindustani "Khayal" (literally meaning "thought") concert begins with a heavily improvised "Aalap"/"Jod"/"Jhala" section that presents the main raga followed by the main composition ("bandish") in which also the artist improvises to a certain extent. After this main presentation, the artist typically presents other compositions in other ragas (with some improvisation) often ending with a "bhajan" (simple devotional song).
A Carnatic classical concert often starts with smaller compositions and has the main piece in the middle which also has "Aalapanai" and composition sections. Usually the "aalap" is shorter and more improvisation happens within compositions vs. Hindustani.
The closest analogies to this style of performance in Western music is Blues and Jazz.
There is no key per say but the relative differences map to modal variations in western music. Keys in different modes are explicitly defined as such in western music but not in Indian music.
Some SERIOUS questions as this app looks like it is a commercial app created to earn money by playing tracks of the legendary musicians WITHOUT TAKING THEIR PERMISSION violating the legal, moral and ethical values.
1. Idea for this app is stolen from 8 prahar concert
2. Why we have to pay money when the SAME classical music is available freely on YouTube and other platforms? Just bcuz is playing under the app.
3. Is legal permission taken from the musicians or their heirs to play their tracks as many musicians are no more.
4. Are they honestly giving any money back to musicians by playing tracks as a profit share. Pls make the info abt "no. of paid users and % money paid to musicians" public.
5. India being a country of 1300 million people, only 5000+ has downloaded the app means Indians have totally rejected this app.
6. Why non of musicians is promoting this app? something is drastically wrong with this app.
7. Due to corona, music industry & musicians all over the world are promoting their music thr their own channels hence apps like this are not required.
I don't know about the stolen idea but they have taken artists' permission. From The Hindu's article:
> The app features artistes such as Bhimsen Joshi, Satyasheel Deshpande, Sanjoy Bandopadhyay, Anuradha Kuber and Anupama Bhagwat. “We reached out to artistes who provided us with exclusive songs, some from private baithaks,” he says. Apart from that, he has also reached out to lesser-known artistes. “Most existing platforms chase established artistes, but there is no other platform apart from Youtube and Facebook for these yet new talents to be discovered.”
You don't have to necessarily pay money. It's a subscription app and there's a free version that you can enjoy with limited songs.
>India being a country of 1300 million people, only 5000+ has downloaded the app means Indians have totally rejected this app.
This is quite an absurd conclusion.
>Why non of musicians is promoting this app? something is drastically wrong with this app.
There's nothing wrong or shady about this product. Marico boss Harsh Mariwala had recommended this app to someone on Twitter. Apart from that, in my opinion, Indian classical music is nothing like your mainstream pop music where you'd expect the singer to jump and promote their app on instagram or tiktok. Classical music is much more than money or fame.
8. Please do visit National Cultural Audiovisual Archives's website " http://ncaa.gov.in/repository " for 10000+ hrs of unpublished, non-commercial Indian Classical Music recordings rather than paying for this commercial PAID app.
Thank you! I was literally looking for an Indian music alternative to Generative.fm. May not have been the use case you are trying to target, but it is the use case for me :)
What does "classical" mean in this context? My benchmark for the term "classical" is traditional European classical music, and so I'm having a hard time understanding where this fits in the Indian musical spectrum, either stylistically or temporally.
Classical in the sense that this is a tradition of sufficient vintage, backed by a theory of music. There are at least 2 distinct systems of Indian music which are called classical.
1. Carnatic - the south Indian classical music. Traditionally Purandara Dasa is supposed to be the originator, from around the 13th century. This came up in the Vijayanagar empire. But there are older composers like Vyasa Raya whose compositions are still popular.(1)
2. Hindustani - the north Indian classical music, origins attributed to Amir Khusro, around 12-13 century.(2)
There are older musical systems, for example, Sopana system in Kerala. (3)
Moreover, instruments like the Veena (the Indian lute) are much older, as can be attested from Gupta era paintings (6th century A.D.), so it is possible that a lot of the history is now lost. (4)
The ragas are arranged in a combinatorial manner, roughly, out of 12 notes, how many harmonious combinations can be made? (5)
Related: combinatorics was used in prosody, in addition to music: One of the earliest occurrenc of the Pascal's triangle is in Indian prosody. (6)
I think a good rule of thumb for any society's "classical" music is "what do the cultural elites coalesce around" - so in western society the political, business, and academic elites go and be elite-y at the symphony or the opera.
In India "educated" or "learned" people will be intimately familiar with many of "raags/ragas" which can be thought of as "tunes" (but they are deeper than that). These ragas are usually meant to be played at different times of day/year or to evoke certain moods. Players will improvise these raags, interpreting not only their "version" of the song, but custom jamming a version specifically for that place and time and audience. Some of these raags have a very long history. I think when people talk about "classical" Indian music this is what they mean. Temporary it's deeply historical music that is constantly evolving.
I'm generalizing and glossing over so much to be brief, and much of this varies by region and tradition, but that's a gist.
When I wanted to learn about Indian classical music, I was pointed to the youtube channel of Anuja Kamat [1]. Disclaimer: I haven't watched enough to present an informed opinion as of yet.
There are many people who think that the term "classical" does not apply to South Asian music of this form, because it is still being actively created and practiced. And while the style of this music has evolved quite a bit, new instruments introduced, the essential features have not gone away.
This music is also not written down (intentionally, I might add), so while roughly the same forms have been practiced for 100s of years, most of what is remembered and played is from the past 150 years or so. You can call this era classical, if you will.
Indian classical music, especially carnatic has a tremendous amount of music theory. I highly recommend T.M. Krishna's "A Southern Music: The Karnatik Story"[0] or this strangeloop talk [1]
Classical in general means music from 1800 period in Europe but you can easily imagine other cultures having their own music from older era that's termed as "Classical".
Classical in Indian music is more a genre than music that was created in a certain time period. Not sure if that’s the same with European classical music.
Dhrupad is a fascinating style of Indian classical music, whose origins predate many of the musical system schisms, identities, and boundaries that have emerged in Indian Classical music over the recent couple centuries.
Every time I attempt to categorize it as one or the other, either by theory, language, religion, or culture, I learn about a new facet that defies that categorization.
Only connection is raga, but since a lot of us here are devs or other computer workers, sharing this, which a few others have told me they liked, for the same reason as me - it is good music to work by:
Music video: Sitar - Vilayat khan - Rarely Heard Ragas
Beautiful, wow thanks for creating and bringing attention to Indian classical music. I like all sorts.. Coke studio and dream journey has done some good stuff to ease people into the genre. Not hard classical, more semi-classical
I am your target customer and would pay money for this. However, I don't want to install another app and would rather have this delivered through soundcloud and mixcloud, and pay for exclusive (secret) tracks through patreon or whatnot
I have been trying to find classical music and make my own playlist but this is incredible. I am learning to understand about both Hindustani and Carnatic classical and this would help me a lot in exploring more artists and songs.
[+] [-] fermienrico|5 years ago|reply
Furthermore, I find the construction of these musical scales (correct me if I am wrong but there is no analog in western classical music of what a raga is) very interesting. Going up in the scale is different than going down and there are some key phrases that identify a raga. Then its all about interpretation.
Is there any specific tabla percussion associated with a Raga?
Some of my favorites:
- Raga Bhimapalasi: Beautiful lazy afternoon raga.
- Raga Tilak Kamod: I would describe this raga as a playful and less serious, very romantic.
- Raga Bhairav: Intense and great for early mornings. For reflective, pensive moods.
- Raga Desh: Festive feel to it.
I personally like vocal renditions of ragas. Spotify has a large selection.
[+] [-] danans|5 years ago|reply
Yes, but practically there are standard pitch zones based on the tunability of certain instruments, particularly percussion.
> Going up in the scale is different than going down and there are some key phrases that identify a raga. Then its all about interpretation.
Sometimes but not always. Most ragas are the same ascending and descending. They are more like the western modes system.
> Then its all about interpretation.
There is actually a huge body of fixed compositions, for both melodic and rhythmic instruments, especially in Carnatic and Dhrupad traditions. Of course improvisation still plays a more important role vs. western classical music, but it is driven by a set of standard canonical themes.
> Is there any specific tabla percussion associated with a Raga?
Not formally, but as one develops as an Indian classical percussionist, you develop an ear for what sorts of rhythmic passages pair with certain types of melodic structures. For example, the rapidly rolling rhythmic structure known as a Rela pairs with steady fast pulsating melodic patterns.
In terms of the actual type of percussion instrument there is a strong pairing, however. Tabla in particular is used in the Khyal style (the most prominent style of North Indian classical music and what you have likely been listening to), and is also used extensively in folk music. The Pakhawaj, a much lower pitch drum, is used with the Dhrupad style. Carnatic percussion, however, comprises a much larger variety of instruments, prime among them and closely related to the aforementioned Pakhawaj is the Mridangam.
[+] [-] abdullahkhalids|5 years ago|reply
I have recently started tabla, so I can perhaps answer correctly. Whenever you play a piece on a melodic instrument, like sitar, it has a cyclic nature, where after X notes you come back to the same "sum" note.
The tabla player matches this cyclic nature. X is commonly 16, so then the tabla player will play in "teen taal". This is any percussion of 16 beats (or 32/64/128 beats) that obey a very particular structure. For teen taal the structure being that notes 9-12 are played without the left tabla (no bass).
[+] [-] jariel|5 years ago|reply
What it does is make use of specific scales, or one scale, in particular, the minor scale or maybe one of it's variants.
The problem is actually ... they stay in that one scale, forever. This is a limitation of this music.
This music is: take a scale, and have someone play a very long, intuitive solo overtop in that one key, effectively one chord. The structure is really quite limited unfortunately.
[+] [-] arunix|5 years ago|reply
No, percussion (meter) has it's own framework called Taala [1], which is orthogonal to Raaga.
As a concrete example: Raaga Hamsadhwani in Rupak Taala (7 beats) [2] vs Teental (16 beats) [3]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)
[2] https://youtu.be/8YNveaC2ADc
[3] https://youtu.be/X1T1psiWer0
[+] [-] jojobas|5 years ago|reply
That's pretty much the same as hitchhikers tuning their guitars by ear with no perfect pitch skill. Anything within a couple of steps is good enough.
What fascinates me is that they are ok with staying in the same chord for the entire repertoire, that some perceptions (i.e. minor scales/chords are "sad" while major ones are "happy") seem to be universal.
[+] [-] sfifs|5 years ago|reply
> What's amazing is that Indian classical music has no key. There is no absolute sense of middle C or whatever. It is relative to the tuning of the drone
European music actually was largely relative too until keyboard instruments (organs and later pianos) became common and popular which forced standardizaton. In North Indian classical, you can see the popularity of the harmonium in recent years driving a similar effect.
Singers in popular western music often transpose scales freely. Many live performers tune half down or full down vs. their studio recordings and many singers transpose their songs down as they age.
> I find the construction of these musical scales (correct me if I am wrong but there is no analog in western classical music of what a raga is) very interesting. Going up in the scale is different than going down and there are some key phrases that identify a raga.
Yes-ish. If you look at the scales in different "modes" of western music, you'll find they do correspond to foundational ragas in Indian classical music (eg. Ionian = Shankarabaranam, Aeolian = Nata Bhairavi, Mixolydian = Harikamboji etc) . The core raga in Carnatic classical (maya-mayava-gowla) has the same notes as the double harmonic scale (think Misirlou from Pulp Fiction). The ragas with different notes going up and down or having fewer than 7 notes are considered derived or synthetic ragas and some artists still create new ragas.
However, as you correctly recognise ragas are not themselves scales. It's more correct to think of ragas as frameworks to present and improvise on scales. There is a concept of "pakad" for example as it's called in Hindustani classical which is a characteristic sequence of notes for a raga etc. This is easiest to spot and understand this if you listen to recordings by top artists in Raga Jog - it comes in the avarohana (descending notes).
> Then its all about interpretation.
"Freedom within a framework" is how I'd best describe it. A typical Hindustani "Khayal" (literally meaning "thought") concert begins with a heavily improvised "Aalap"/"Jod"/"Jhala" section that presents the main raga followed by the main composition ("bandish") in which also the artist improvises to a certain extent. After this main presentation, the artist typically presents other compositions in other ragas (with some improvisation) often ending with a "bhajan" (simple devotional song).
A Carnatic classical concert often starts with smaller compositions and has the main piece in the middle which also has "Aalapanai" and composition sections. Usually the "aalap" is shorter and more improvisation happens within compositions vs. Hindustani.
The closest analogies to this style of performance in Western music is Blues and Jazz.
[+] [-] trianglem|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] selimthegrim|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] biz_booster|5 years ago|reply
1. Idea for this app is stolen from 8 prahar concert
2. Why we have to pay money when the SAME classical music is available freely on YouTube and other platforms? Just bcuz is playing under the app.
3. Is legal permission taken from the musicians or their heirs to play their tracks as many musicians are no more.
4. Are they honestly giving any money back to musicians by playing tracks as a profit share. Pls make the info abt "no. of paid users and % money paid to musicians" public.
5. India being a country of 1300 million people, only 5000+ has downloaded the app means Indians have totally rejected this app.
6. Why non of musicians is promoting this app? something is drastically wrong with this app.
7. Due to corona, music industry & musicians all over the world are promoting their music thr their own channels hence apps like this are not required.
[+] [-] altStoner|5 years ago|reply
> The app features artistes such as Bhimsen Joshi, Satyasheel Deshpande, Sanjoy Bandopadhyay, Anuradha Kuber and Anupama Bhagwat. “We reached out to artistes who provided us with exclusive songs, some from private baithaks,” he says. Apart from that, he has also reached out to lesser-known artistes. “Most existing platforms chase established artistes, but there is no other platform apart from Youtube and Facebook for these yet new talents to be discovered.”
You don't have to necessarily pay money. It's a subscription app and there's a free version that you can enjoy with limited songs.
>India being a country of 1300 million people, only 5000+ has downloaded the app means Indians have totally rejected this app.
This is quite an absurd conclusion.
>Why non of musicians is promoting this app? something is drastically wrong with this app.
There's nothing wrong or shady about this product. Marico boss Harsh Mariwala had recommended this app to someone on Twitter. Apart from that, in my opinion, Indian classical music is nothing like your mainstream pop music where you'd expect the singer to jump and promote their app on instagram or tiktok. Classical music is much more than money or fame.
[+] [-] biz_booster|5 years ago|reply
Twitter handle for daily videos - @NCAA_PMU
[+] [-] hbharadwaj|5 years ago|reply
Big shout out to Generative.fm as well!
[+] [-] neduma|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] indysigners|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scoot|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sn41|5 years ago|reply
1. Carnatic - the south Indian classical music. Traditionally Purandara Dasa is supposed to be the originator, from around the 13th century. This came up in the Vijayanagar empire. But there are older composers like Vyasa Raya whose compositions are still popular.(1)
2. Hindustani - the north Indian classical music, origins attributed to Amir Khusro, around 12-13 century.(2)
There are older musical systems, for example, Sopana system in Kerala. (3)
Moreover, instruments like the Veena (the Indian lute) are much older, as can be attested from Gupta era paintings (6th century A.D.), so it is possible that a lot of the history is now lost. (4)
The ragas are arranged in a combinatorial manner, roughly, out of 12 notes, how many harmonious combinations can be made? (5)
Related: combinatorics was used in prosody, in addition to music: One of the earliest occurrenc of the Pascal's triangle is in Indian prosody. (6)
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_classical_music
(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopana_Sangeetham
(4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veena
(5) https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL5/Balasubramanian/ba...
(6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#History
[+] [-] schrectacular|5 years ago|reply
In India "educated" or "learned" people will be intimately familiar with many of "raags/ragas" which can be thought of as "tunes" (but they are deeper than that). These ragas are usually meant to be played at different times of day/year or to evoke certain moods. Players will improvise these raags, interpreting not only their "version" of the song, but custom jamming a version specifically for that place and time and audience. Some of these raags have a very long history. I think when people talk about "classical" Indian music this is what they mean. Temporary it's deeply historical music that is constantly evolving.
I'm generalizing and glossing over so much to be brief, and much of this varies by region and tradition, but that's a gist.
[+] [-] JoeDaDude|5 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs6OTIFV53Z-EGT84lxTvqQ
[+] [-] abdullahkhalids|5 years ago|reply
This music is also not written down (intentionally, I might add), so while roughly the same forms have been practiced for 100s of years, most of what is remembered and played is from the past 150 years or so. You can call this era classical, if you will.
[+] [-] bakul|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abishekk92|5 years ago|reply
[0] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20320205-a-southern-musi...
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CGcusOz60
[+] [-] brainless|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marcescence|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trianglem|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] embit|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Karishma1234|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] marsantwo|5 years ago|reply
And because this is Hacker News, there has to be a LISP in the mix.
[+] [-] tudorw|5 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/Lye2FSx0F4c
[+] [-] danans|5 years ago|reply
Every time I attempt to categorize it as one or the other, either by theory, language, religion, or culture, I learn about a new facet that defies that categorization.
[+] [-] the_arun|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kadal|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GordonS|5 years ago|reply
Slight tangent, but anyone got suggestions for Asian electronica (tabla/raga inspired)?
[+] [-] e2phd|5 years ago|reply
Maybe even Asian Dub Foundation although that might not be electronica.
[+] [-] colanderman|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atulatul|5 years ago|reply
https://www.parrikar.org/vault/
[+] [-] vram22|5 years ago|reply
Music video: Sitar - Vilayat khan - Rarely Heard Ragas
https://jugad2.blogspot.com/2013/10/music-video-sitar-vilaya...
[+] [-] throwawayamzn1|5 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/BXmIpbBOSvI https://youtu.be/JlMJhDHJ3t4
[+] [-] bravura|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] srameshc|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] the_arun|5 years ago|reply
They already have curated playlists. But with AI, they could do this any day? or am I thinking crazy?
[+] [-] dvtrn|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rjakobsson|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zerop|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] biz_booster|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raindropm|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blizkreeg|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dharma1|5 years ago|reply