Not at all. Yes Switzerland is probably the best country if you want to follow the rules, have a good quality of life and good education for your children. Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges. This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors. From a Swiss person.
Exactly. It's an amazing place to live, has good tech scene, but it's not Silicon Valley. Also the economic focus is completely different - they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses which form a significantly more resilient economy (there's a reason why Switzerland did rather well in this pandemic).
Asking why the Swiss don't invest in same industries like Californians do would be like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team.
It's a fundamentally different focus - is that so hard to understand to people living in the Valley? That not all economies see the value in javascript webpages?
>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person
This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditions for companies and people looking for work. And it's a great place to live. Why do you think Google and others have large development departments in Switzerland? And it's also good for start-ups. Have a look at e.g. https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schwe... and https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=....
I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks
There are very interesting software companies in Switzerland. And those companies are taking a lot of risks as well. Maybe your impression stems from the fact that it's not a very visible ecosystem and the funding is obviously much smaller than in bigger economies.
I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up.
I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well.
Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country.
When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.
Nonsense! I’ve been part of the Swiss startup scene for more than a decade and there are plenty of interesting startups and opportunities. If there is a lack of anything, it is technical co-founders that are willing to take a risk. (Working at Google is just too convenient.) In any case, it you are looking for a nice challenge, feel free to consider my latest venture Aktionariat.
As an American immigrant to Switzerland, don’t move here to be on the cutting technical edge. You will be sorely disappointed. It’s a function of societal mentality (slow to change as a way of ensuring enduring stability) and size (fewer people, fairly spread out, only two or three cities big enough to be tech hubs).
I moved here for a lot of other reasons, and I’m very happy with my decision and its benefits, but a startup cutting edge country, it is not. If you want that, try Estonia!
Switzerland being ranked every year in the top 3 most innovative country in the world, you will find a bit of cutting edge techno developed there, however maybe not in your field of expertise.
For instance the number of biotech startup is huge with multiple incubator in Switzerland.
While I like Silicon Valley, it has its downsides as well. And not everything good for Americans is good for Europeans.
I want to see our own "tech cities" across Europe, every one of them with their own culture, their own lifestyle, their own philosophy, etc. To be successful you don't have to imitate SV on everything.
FWIW: I am a 2nd-time entrepreneur. I bootstrapped a company in Germany from 2004-2011, and sold it to Google then. As part of that I moved to Switzerland. I started another company in early 2018 in Zurich, believing the hype about it being a good place to do business.
I won't go into details publicly, but: If your market and your potential acquirers are primarily in the US, and you think your startup will have a long-term focus in the US, avoid incorporating in Zurich. Go to London, Berlin, Paris, pretty much anywhere but Zurich. If you absolutely have to incorporate in Switzerland, move yourself to a startup-friendly Canton such as Zug. Do not incorporate in Zurich, and do not open an office in Zurich.
My experiences have been resoundingly negative, and I am not the only one - founders just avoid talking about the negative experiences for fear of causing more problems.
If your market will be primarily Switzerland and the immediate neighbors, starting here is likely fine (albeit you will get better price/performance on engineering in neighboring countries).
I hold a citizenship in an EU country (Lithuania) and would love to spend some time working in Europe closer to family. Swiss/EU bilateral agreements would allow me to work there easily, but every time I do some research it seems the (lack of) bureaucracy, compensation, and culture of innovation just pales in comparison to US tech hubs.
Here in the US, I can spin up an LLC by clicking a few buttons on one of the dozen or so online incorporation services for under $100. Cheaper if I wanted to do it myself. I can spin up little side-projects left and right. My day job is pretty run-of-the-mill for US tech standards, but pays more than I could ever dream of in anywhere in Europe (even if I take into account the value of better social services).
At this rate, I don't see any sufficiently impactful changes happening in Europe to make it meaningfully competitive, but I really hope it does.
I've started corporate entities in several countries, and Switzerland wasn't exactly hard.
People seem to confuse the cost of doing it with the initial capital required. In Switzerland, as in Germany, there's a little version and a big version, GmbH and AG.
Speaking for Switzerland, you need CHF20K to do the GmbH and 100K for the AG. But you actually only need 50K cash for the AG because it doesn't all have to be paid up.
In terms of legal difference, there isn't really any, according to a couple of my Swiss accountants. It's more that if you risk 100K (it's still at risk even though it's not paid up) your business partners might see you differently. Having said that Google went for the little one.
Now if you are starting a business, chances are you are going to need 20K in some bank account anyway. Even a very small business needs some funds. The cost is simply the notarizing cost, ie the cost of making it official, and whatever your legal guy charges. Not much, and it gets done pretty fast. More than 100USD though, for sure.
The UK was super easy as well. Here you just pay the accountant and he does the Companies House stuff for you. You can probably DIY it to save a couple hundred quid, plus the capital requirement is £1 or some trivial amount.
Other European countries don't make it a whole lot harder. I think the difference is greater in how easy it is to establish your new business as a viable entity. Customers, suppliers need to be open to doing business with you, and that varies a lot across locations and industries.
The ease of starting a Limited company in Lithuania is really interesting.
I used to start UK Ltd companies really easily, but with them exiting the EU, the best alternative I've found so far is Ireland or Estonia, but both are somewhat expensive. Although not compared to starting a GmbH in Austria or Germany.
I learned through bitter experience that Malta has some yearly auditing requirements, which make everything more expensive than they first appear.
Can you provide some links or info about going the Lithuanian route?
At least in Switzerland you can somewhere go around with ~20‘000/year in earnings without much bureaucracy at all (not much insurance, easy taxes, ...) and even after that, there‘s no need to register a company. You can work as single-person company longer than you say it‘s a side business. For sure you have to care about insurabce and taxes, but I don‘t see anything wrong with that.
It might be that it‘s different in other countries but from my experience, Switzerland makes it quite easy „for the little man“.
> In 2019 Switzerland attracted $ 445 million of investments.
With twice the population of Silicon Valley this alone points to "no". If you add SF and the rest of the Bay Area, the populations become much closer, but the investment ratio is far worse.
Of course the economy here has become rather lopsided over the past 20 years while Switzerland's economy is more diverse. (e.g. I don't think I've drunk local milk since the dairy in downtown Palo Alto closed.)
I wonder how much Google skews these statistics. They moved into an enormous new office spaces right in the center of Zurich. I am always surprised that their presence is so huge for a country and city that small.
I hope there won't be one, at the end, what good really came out of Silicon Valley anyway? The good parts can be equated to any other place where innovation takes place, be it in Europe or elsewhere. The rest is tons of crap and speculation.
The French have a shot at this, if there is political will in Paris. Closest thing to SV in France is Toulouse: a major university; defense and related tech industries; lots of competent world class engineers; and an attractive locale.
> Is Switzerland better than Silicon Valley for software developers?
The entire article compares data between Switzerland and other EU countries (the accuracy of which is a whole another topic), and then this is used to compare Switzerland against Silicon Valley?
Most of Doodle's open engineering positions are in Berlin. Tresorit seems to be mostly based in Budapest. Honestly a lot of companies with Swiss HQs have the bare minimum presence required to benefit from the low taxes in Switzerland.
My personal theory is that determination whether a place can become a "Silicon Valley" is the population's attitude to drugs. If a developer can smoke a joint after a tough day or explore his or hers consciousness in other ways, without fear of going to jail and having their life ruined, then that attracts creative people. If you have creative people in one place, it all starts to come together.
One of my friends moved back from the Bay Area to Switzerland with his family. While he's happy that he's close to his family again, there's no question that he went from a place where engineers are at the top of the food chain to one where it's all about bankers and finance.
There won't be another "Silicon Valley" because the unique conditions of SV didn't happen anywhere else (at least so far).
Which it doesn't mean you can't have competitive or innovative companies in other places. What their differences are w.r.t. SV might be disadvantages but they also might be advantages. (Though the easy financing is one darn good competitive advantage)
But the world (and innovation) is not only startups working on a new web/app thing.
This article seems to want to define "Silicon Valley" in terms of companies starting up and the prospect of employment. But in my opinion, these numbers considered over a short period aren't necessarily a relevant base for comparison.
The majority of startups fails. So for an individual considering the risk of that adventure, it's not only important to prepare for take off, it's also important to make sure the landing will not be too rough. Especially the emergency landing. In the US, entrepreneurship is so ingrained in the culture that the costs and stigmas associated with failure are lower than in many (most?) other places in the world. They're therefore not as big a deterrent.
In order for me to consider Switzerland as a possible alternative to Silicon Valley, I'd have to ask some questions like, how well is the risk of entrepreneurship understood? What happens when the majority of these startups fails in the next 5 years? How willing will entrepreneurs be to try a second time? How many current "second-chance" entrepreneurs (those who've already tried and failed at least once before) are there?
Sadly, no. The bureaucracy of opening and running a business here is staggering (and the minimum starting capital for opening an analog of LLC is more than $20,000, and more than $100,000 for a corporation). Perhaps you have heard that there are few taxes in Switzerland; this is not true (and also a lot of obligatory social security payments for the each employee which are almost impossible to manage without a dedicated company to help running your accounting, which is quite expensive). There are many rich people and investments funds, but barely anyone understands how venture capital works. Switzerland is not a country which attracts risk takers. I tried to build startups here for the last 10 years, and I am exhausted.
I think Switzerland is a nice place to live, but the technology choices are not too exciting. Mainly older tech, not much that is cutting edge. Dependable, reliable, professional, but not interesting like San Francisco!
[+] [-] aphroz|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] izacus|5 years ago|reply
Asking why the Swiss don't invest in same industries like Californians do would be like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team.
It's a fundamentally different focus - is that so hard to understand to people living in the Valley? That not all economies see the value in javascript webpages?
[+] [-] Rochus|5 years ago|reply
This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditions for companies and people looking for work. And it's a great place to live. Why do you think Google and others have large development departments in Switzerland? And it's also good for start-ups. Have a look at e.g. https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schwe... and https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=....
Also see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev....
[+] [-] AnthonySmith01|5 years ago|reply
When I visited Google in Silicon Valley (from Australia), I didn’t get the impression that the work was that more exciting or cutting edge.
But that said, I did notice how run down Silicon Valley and much of the US cities/suburbs are. It did not strike me as a nice place to live.
[+] [-] somedude895|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcfrei|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjmlp|5 years ago|reply
I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well.
Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country.
When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.
[+] [-] Hermel|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Abishek_Muthian|5 years ago|reply
Can you please expand on those two points?
[+] [-] lta|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lukeqsee|5 years ago|reply
I moved here for a lot of other reasons, and I’m very happy with my decision and its benefits, but a startup cutting edge country, it is not. If you want that, try Estonia!
[+] [-] mahkeiro|5 years ago|reply
For instance the number of biotech startup is huge with multiple incubator in Switzerland.
A few of many links: * https://bioalps.org/innovation-enablers/ * https://baselaunch.ch/
[+] [-] LeanderK|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] solarkings|5 years ago|reply
We all have our own cultures and different types of innovation can spring from each one of them.
[+] [-] jason0597|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Darmody|5 years ago|reply
While I like Silicon Valley, it has its downsides as well. And not everything good for Americans is good for Europeans.
I want to see our own "tech cities" across Europe, every one of them with their own culture, their own lifestyle, their own philosophy, etc. To be successful you don't have to imitate SV on everything.
[+] [-] maest|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thomasdullien|5 years ago|reply
I won't go into details publicly, but: If your market and your potential acquirers are primarily in the US, and you think your startup will have a long-term focus in the US, avoid incorporating in Zurich. Go to London, Berlin, Paris, pretty much anywhere but Zurich. If you absolutely have to incorporate in Switzerland, move yourself to a startup-friendly Canton such as Zug. Do not incorporate in Zurich, and do not open an office in Zurich.
My experiences have been resoundingly negative, and I am not the only one - founders just avoid talking about the negative experiences for fear of causing more problems.
If your market will be primarily Switzerland and the immediate neighbors, starting here is likely fine (albeit you will get better price/performance on engineering in neighboring countries).
Feel free to reach out in private.
[+] [-] maest|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] proxyrax|5 years ago|reply
I hold a citizenship in an EU country (Lithuania) and would love to spend some time working in Europe closer to family. Swiss/EU bilateral agreements would allow me to work there easily, but every time I do some research it seems the (lack of) bureaucracy, compensation, and culture of innovation just pales in comparison to US tech hubs.
Here in the US, I can spin up an LLC by clicking a few buttons on one of the dozen or so online incorporation services for under $100. Cheaper if I wanted to do it myself. I can spin up little side-projects left and right. My day job is pretty run-of-the-mill for US tech standards, but pays more than I could ever dream of in anywhere in Europe (even if I take into account the value of better social services).
At this rate, I don't see any sufficiently impactful changes happening in Europe to make it meaningfully competitive, but I really hope it does.
[+] [-] lordnacho|5 years ago|reply
People seem to confuse the cost of doing it with the initial capital required. In Switzerland, as in Germany, there's a little version and a big version, GmbH and AG.
Speaking for Switzerland, you need CHF20K to do the GmbH and 100K for the AG. But you actually only need 50K cash for the AG because it doesn't all have to be paid up.
In terms of legal difference, there isn't really any, according to a couple of my Swiss accountants. It's more that if you risk 100K (it's still at risk even though it's not paid up) your business partners might see you differently. Having said that Google went for the little one.
Now if you are starting a business, chances are you are going to need 20K in some bank account anyway. Even a very small business needs some funds. The cost is simply the notarizing cost, ie the cost of making it official, and whatever your legal guy charges. Not much, and it gets done pretty fast. More than 100USD though, for sure.
The UK was super easy as well. Here you just pay the accountant and he does the Companies House stuff for you. You can probably DIY it to save a couple hundred quid, plus the capital requirement is £1 or some trivial amount.
Other European countries don't make it a whole lot harder. I think the difference is greater in how easy it is to establish your new business as a viable entity. Customers, suppliers need to be open to doing business with you, and that varies a lot across locations and industries.
[+] [-] phillc73|5 years ago|reply
I used to start UK Ltd companies really easily, but with them exiting the EU, the best alternative I've found so far is Ireland or Estonia, but both are somewhat expensive. Although not compared to starting a GmbH in Austria or Germany.
I learned through bitter experience that Malta has some yearly auditing requirements, which make everything more expensive than they first appear.
Can you provide some links or info about going the Lithuanian route?
[+] [-] chrisandchris|5 years ago|reply
It might be that it‘s different in other countries but from my experience, Switzerland makes it quite easy „for the little man“.
[+] [-] dblock|5 years ago|reply
“The lake is not burning” is my favorite way to describe Switzerland when it comes to software and startups. And everything else, in fact.
[+] [-] johncena33|5 years ago|reply
I am non-native, but fluent English speaker. Can you please explain what does this phrase mean?
[+] [-] sschueller|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gumby|5 years ago|reply
With twice the population of Silicon Valley this alone points to "no". If you add SF and the rest of the Bay Area, the populations become much closer, but the investment ratio is far worse.
Of course the economy here has become rather lopsided over the past 20 years while Switzerland's economy is more diverse. (e.g. I don't think I've drunk local milk since the dairy in downtown Palo Alto closed.)
[+] [-] faebi|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmonsen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mkl95|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skratlo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eternalban|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Gwypaas|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bayart|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baloney1|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aerosmile|5 years ago|reply
The entire article compares data between Switzerland and other EU countries (the accuracy of which is a whole another topic), and then this is used to compare Switzerland against Silicon Valley?
[+] [-] dang|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ThePhysicist|5 years ago|reply
Personally I use Tresorit (end-to-end encrypted Dropbox alternative), which is also made in Switzerland. And then there's Protonmail of course.
[+] [-] dnet|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tormeh|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leifg|5 years ago|reply
- London - Berlin - Munich - Barcelona - Lisbon - Karlsruhe
And these are only the places I have lived (+ I also lived in SF). Trust me it's pretty much true for none of them.
[+] [-] varispeed|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TomVDB|5 years ago|reply
And the salary reflects that.
[+] [-] raverbashing|5 years ago|reply
Which it doesn't mean you can't have competitive or innovative companies in other places. What their differences are w.r.t. SV might be disadvantages but they also might be advantages. (Though the easy financing is one darn good competitive advantage)
But the world (and innovation) is not only startups working on a new web/app thing.
[+] [-] mekoka|5 years ago|reply
The majority of startups fails. So for an individual considering the risk of that adventure, it's not only important to prepare for take off, it's also important to make sure the landing will not be too rough. Especially the emergency landing. In the US, entrepreneurship is so ingrained in the culture that the costs and stigmas associated with failure are lower than in many (most?) other places in the world. They're therefore not as big a deterrent.
In order for me to consider Switzerland as a possible alternative to Silicon Valley, I'd have to ask some questions like, how well is the risk of entrepreneurship understood? What happens when the majority of these startups fails in the next 5 years? How willing will entrepreneurs be to try a second time? How many current "second-chance" entrepreneurs (those who've already tried and failed at least once before) are there?
[+] [-] est31|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nix23|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atemerev|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swissdev|5 years ago|reply