“The oldest knitted artifacts are socks from Egypt, dating from the 11th century CE. They are a very fine gauge, done with complex colourwork and some have a short row heel, which necessitates the purl stitch. These complexities suggest that knitting is even older than the archeological record can prove.”
“Linguistically, all evidence implies that knitting is a fairly recent invention. There are no ancient legends of knitting like there are legends of spinning and weaving (remember Arachne? Ixzaluoh? Nephthys? Amaterasu? Never mind... the numbers of weaving and spinning gods and mostly goddesses are legion). There are no ancient gods or goddesses who knit, no legend of how it was invented or given by the gods. That lack implies that it is a recent skill, developed after mythologies were established around the world.
[…]
So what do we know? Knitting kind of appeared, poof, probably in Egypt or an adjoining land, sometime around 1000CE”
⇒ it’s not a given that knitting existed in Roman times.
probably not; we can’t date knitting that early, and by a wide margin. The earliest knit goods are ~1000CE and Egyptian.
The time period for these finds are ~>800 years earlier.
Naalbinding existed then, and works fine for fingers with its regular tools, and is actually very different from knitting in its technique.
I’m not convinced. I’m more concerned with the honest qualification of uncertainty in claims made about artifacts, though. The language of speculation and likelihood is a lot more intellectually honest than either the “ivory tower knows all” crowd OR the “folk wisdom knows all” gang’s respective positions.
fwiw i’m also immediately suspicious whenever druids are invoked with any certainty: we know so shockingly little about them at all that the confidence interval on anything to do with them is super wide.
I'm not convinced by this, because the object is more complicated and finely made than necessary for making glove fingers. Why a dodecahedron when only one face is used? Why are the holes so smooth and round, which would require extra hand filing to clean up the casting? Why multiple sizes of hole when the size of the glove finger is regulated by the yarn tension?
This article does not belong on HN. It has all the hallmarks of crankery: An early rejection of the entire field of study involved; describes peer review as a tyranny of orthodoxy; Makes assumption that everyone else who has studied this missed something as fundamental as unit conversions; and then engages in a lot of gymnastics and assumptions to justify a pre-decided conclusion.
I think HN will do fine. Have a look around: people are already discussing knitting instead of the content of the article after someone dug out a video that shows a similiar object being used.
Just because the article is wrong does not mean that it cannot serve as starting point for interesting discussions.
It is indeed a bit unhinged.
It seems they just measured the diameter of the holes and then formed a series of integer multiples of these measurements. And some of these multiples happen to coincide with numbers used in specific settings (navigation, astronomy...). How surprising...
They fail to explain how those objects would be used in practice according to their theory without modern highly accurate calipers.
Not even speaking of the general tone and wild ramblings scattered throughout the article.
Edit: The number series are not even correct. For the first series (.875, 1.75, 2.265, 3.5, 4.375, ...) the third number should be 2.625 and not 2.265. It is even bolded.
The guy is posting on (or owns) celticnz.co.nz - proponents of a somewhat racist theory that the Maori weren't the original inhabitants of New Zealand, but rather it was previously settled by Celts a thousand years earlier.
The evidence for this consists mostly of some rocks piled up to make some fences - technology the Maori couldn't hope to replicate until the white man came along and showed them how.
This apparently means, amongst other things, that the Treaty of Waitangi (founding document for NZ) is null and void as the Maori are not the original/actual Tangata whenua.
> The Romans had a foot of 11.664"*. Their pace measurement was 5 Roman feet or 58.32" (4.86'). Their mile was 5000 Roman feet, which would be equivalent to 4860 ancient or modern English feet. The Roman measurements were divisible by 6.
> The ancient English had a foot of 12", a yard of 3', a fathom that was originally 5.5', a rod or perch that was 16.5' (3 fathoms), a chain of 66', a furlong or furrowlong that was 660', a mile of 5280' and a league that was 16500' (3.125 miles). The English overland measurements were divisible by the number 11, as were the ancient Scottish measurements, with their mile of 5940' (1 furlong greater than the English mile).
This was my first thought as well, the theory is also mentioned in the article (the small round mushroom-shaped knobs were possibly used to hold the tent cover in place).
I think I have seen similar standardized joints in modern constructions.
E: here is a modern day version, just google for "MERO system":
So he is basing these super specific conclusions on the measurements of a single dodehycron? This is just silly number theory and can easily be proven or disproven by measuring and weighing another. If one hole is not elliptical then the argument doesn't hold.
I know nothing of this subject, but have to say that I like the idea of druids walking around with the reference objects for size and weight. Does anyone know how uniform they are?
I think you mean 'numerology' - 'number theory' is a serious field of mathematics; the former is the 'study' of numbers particularly in old texts (e.g. the Bible) etc. and finding mystical meanings or links between them.
In the civilization that existed before the cataclysm that marked the end of the Younger Dryras, these were the equivalent of Turners Cubes. These were passed down by the remnants of that civilization, along with stories of the flood.
I’ve seen these featured on out—of-place artifacts articles over the years. Many have assumed various functions such as flag pole holders or measuring tools, but they seem too decorative for such pragmatic uses.
Related: "Kitava" - "The inhabitants of this island and their diet and lifestyle have been the subject of study [...], due to their reported excellent health and traditional diet.", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitava
[+] [-] n0y8|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maxerickson|5 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amLeEmU6I-M&list=PLrcUrvayab...
[+] [-] Someone|5 years ago|reply
“The oldest knitted artifacts are socks from Egypt, dating from the 11th century CE. They are a very fine gauge, done with complex colourwork and some have a short row heel, which necessitates the purl stitch. These complexities suggest that knitting is even older than the archeological record can prove.”
https://knitty.com/ISSUEspring06/FEAThistory101.html:
“Linguistically, all evidence implies that knitting is a fairly recent invention. There are no ancient legends of knitting like there are legends of spinning and weaving (remember Arachne? Ixzaluoh? Nephthys? Amaterasu? Never mind... the numbers of weaving and spinning gods and mostly goddesses are legion). There are no ancient gods or goddesses who knit, no legend of how it was invented or given by the gods. That lack implies that it is a recent skill, developed after mythologies were established around the world. […] So what do we know? Knitting kind of appeared, poof, probably in Egypt or an adjoining land, sometime around 1000CE”
⇒ it’s not a given that knitting existed in Roman times.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron dates them to the 2nd to 4th centuries AD)
[+] [-] hprotagonist|5 years ago|reply
The time period for these finds are ~>800 years earlier.
Naalbinding existed then, and works fine for fingers with its regular tools, and is actually very different from knitting in its technique.
I’m not convinced. I’m more concerned with the honest qualification of uncertainty in claims made about artifacts, though. The language of speculation and likelihood is a lot more intellectually honest than either the “ivory tower knows all” crowd OR the “folk wisdom knows all” gang’s respective positions.
fwiw i’m also immediately suspicious whenever druids are invoked with any certainty: we know so shockingly little about them at all that the confidence interval on anything to do with them is super wide.
[+] [-] shele|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrob|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shele|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tuco86|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jtwaleson|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jansan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] praestigiare|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _Microft|5 years ago|reply
Just because the article is wrong does not mean that it cannot serve as starting point for interesting discussions.
[+] [-] dthul|5 years ago|reply
Not even speaking of the general tone and wild ramblings scattered throughout the article.
Edit: The number series are not even correct. For the first series (.875, 1.75, 2.265, 3.5, 4.375, ...) the third number should be 2.625 and not 2.265. It is even bolded.
[+] [-] davesmylie|5 years ago|reply
The evidence for this consists mostly of some rocks piled up to make some fences - technology the Maori couldn't hope to replicate until the white man came along and showed them how.
This apparently means, amongst other things, that the Treaty of Waitangi (founding document for NZ) is null and void as the Maori are not the original/actual Tangata whenua.
[+] [-] adamjb|5 years ago|reply
Flawed premise: the modern mile being 5280' is more or less an historical accident. The Roman mile was 5000 Roman feet.
https://petersmagnusson.org/2009/09/15/why-are-there-5280-fe...
[+] [-] thechao|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OJFord|5 years ago|reply
> The Romans had a foot of 11.664"*. Their pace measurement was 5 Roman feet or 58.32" (4.86'). Their mile was 5000 Roman feet, which would be equivalent to 4860 ancient or modern English feet. The Roman measurements were divisible by 6.
> The ancient English had a foot of 12", a yard of 3', a fathom that was originally 5.5', a rod or perch that was 16.5' (3 fathoms), a chain of 66', a furlong or furrowlong that was 660', a mile of 5280' and a league that was 16500' (3.125 miles). The English overland measurements were divisible by the number 11, as were the ancient Scottish measurements, with their mile of 5940' (1 furlong greater than the English mile).
[+] [-] detritus|5 years ago|reply
- ed wee knobs could be for insertion into canvas or hides, which are they tightly bound outside?
[+] [-] lqet|5 years ago|reply
I think I have seen similar standardized joints in modern constructions.
E: here is a modern day version, just google for "MERO system":
https://www.mero.de/index.php/en/construction-systems/nodes/...
[+] [-] afandian|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcphage|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jtwaleson|5 years ago|reply
I know nothing of this subject, but have to say that I like the idea of druids walking around with the reference objects for size and weight. Does anyone know how uniform they are?
[+] [-] OJFord|5 years ago|reply
I think you mean 'numerology' - 'number theory' is a serious field of mathematics; the former is the 'study' of numbers particularly in old texts (e.g. the Bible) etc. and finding mystical meanings or links between them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_theory
(Actually they already have 'not to be confused with' links between them - must be a common confusion.)
[+] [-] mikewarot|5 years ago|reply
Here's a nice relaxing video of someone making a turners cube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw3GzqgWg-8
[+] [-] temporallobe|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greenkey|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grenoire|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway8451|5 years ago|reply
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Delve_Stackable_Socketable...
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/List_of_fossils
There is a number of items in Path of Exile that at least draws inspiration from real life objects.
"Taste of Hate":
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Taste_of_Hate
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/6pldcz/taste_o...
https://imgur.com/a/UI4iM
"Dying Sun":
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Dying_Sun
https://www.johnniewalker.com/media/1633/01-john-walker-and-...
Related: "Kitava" - "The inhabitants of this island and their diet and lifestyle have been the subject of study [...], due to their reported excellent health and traditional diet.", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitava
[+] [-] rozab|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] itsthecourier|5 years ago|reply
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