I'd like to share my sleeping practice which I've developed after several years of focusing on it and trying to recreate the pre-industrial (and possibly pre-farming) sleep patterns my ancestors had for millions of years before the last few thousand.
Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest.
Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep.
Sometimes this means only a couple hours, and sometimes it's 16 or more. Whatever it is, if I am tired and want to keep sleeping, that's what I do.
A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say.
Those flus and colds which I used to get once or twice a year and which would sometimes drag on for weeks? I can't remember the last time I've had that happen, but it's been several years now. (Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep.)
I also practice what I call "dog sleep" or "cat sleep", meaning I lay down and close my eyes and fully rest my body, without necessarily losing all alertness or consciousness.
My rewards have been improved cognition, better health and overall feeling, and still being able to do occasional coding marathons like I used to when I was half my current age.
We've been conditioned to think of sleep as laziness and sloth, but nothing could be further from the truth on the cellular level. When you rest, your cells go to work cleaning, rebuilding, and renewing your body. Your mind also does sorting and self-analysis, and returns the results in the form of remembered dreams.
I used to think that our body know better. But I realise it doesn't do what is better but rather what it is used to do.
I felt I had to eat sweets frequently, drink coca-coca everyday and 3 meals a day etc. My body felt terrible when I didn't. I stopped listed to what my body wanted and consciously stop those things. First week it was really painful. Second week I got used to. Third week I completely changed. Now I have to force myself do eat sweets, drink soda or having so many meals a day.
I still listen my body about drink water and not sure if I should really listen it when it comes to sleep.
This is similar to my "drink when you're thirsty" method for remaining hydrated. There's a whole industry built on the premise that we're unable to regulate our own water intake without the help of apps and special water bottles. I've not found that to be the case myself.
In principle this sounds pretty ideal. Sleeping, or resting, when you need and not force an arbitrary societal schedule on yourself. But, I'm guessing that you don't go into an office nor have a lot of meetings? Do you live alone or does it work with a family around the house?
> A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say.
I don't really take sleeping that seriously in general, but I used to get sick pretty frequently (sick enough to not work, a couple times a year). Nowadays I have a routine, and it's not so different: if I feel a tiny bit sick, I go home, lie in bed, and order semi-healthy Mediterranean food (I have specific cravings when I get sick -- is this common?). I stay that way until I can't stand being in bed any more. I also avoid any source of stress.
The number of days per year when I'm sick has probably gone down by a factor of 4: I get properly sick half as often, and when I am sick, I get better much faster. Almost as importantly, getting sick is no longer "miserable" in the same way. It seems a substantial part of the misery of being sick (with something mild, like a cold or, at my age, flu) just comes from trying to do things you shouldn't try to do. Lying in bed and executing a nap/snack/pee/read loop... that's not so bad.
(As others in this thread love to point out, this doesn't work for people with bad sick leave, or stressful jobs, or single parents, and so on and so forth. That's a strong case for sick leave etc., as far as I see.)
I advise anyone reading this and experiencing similar sleep pattern or fatigue to visit their doctor. This could be anything from diabetes, iron difeciency, Vitamin D difeciancy, and whole other things that could be wrong. Please don't use someone's else experience as the whole truth.
It seems like yo do enjoy your lifestyle, but man, sleeping more than 8 hours, even when sick, seems impossible for me.
I do have some kind of FOMO, not really about being hyper productive but to be conscious, I could consider a perfectly well spent day even if I just lazed in bed, but i would need to be able to even think about stuff, watch the ceiling or just feel the sheets on my hands.
With how little time I have on this planet and all the possible experiences, I would definitely do without sleeping if I could.
> Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest.
>Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep.
Do you mean in the day you rest, and you sleep at night? Or you mean you might sleep four hours in the day and four at night?
Not sure if the first line means rest in the sense of cat sleep, or actual sleep.
I did something very similar for a few years before I had kids. It was great! (So is being a father of course) unfortunately I can’t find a way to make it work as a Dad, as everything is so scheduled now. Hopefully when they’re older I can get back into it. It definitely worked well for me too.
Love it! You are light-years ahead of me. I recently came up with analogy of pet sleep, like you said, cats and dogs just sleep here and there if the feel like it. I tried to implement that on my weekends but wasn't very successful so far.
How do you keep your sleep rhythms while you're working?
Was it hard to get your life to shift around your sleep patterns? (If you sleep in and skip a bunch of meetings without notice or miss your kids soccer game)
Conceptually you are on to something. Pushing exhaustion isn’t smart.
I have a very weird problem/issue, maybe someone can help.
In my school days I used to maintain a dream diary, where I would note down every dream I had after waking up. I stopped doing that when I got into college, but dreams never stopped and I never stopped analysing and trying to remember the dreams.
Fast forward to present time (10 years from school), whenever I want to wake up i.e. after 6-7 hours of sleep I can't stop myself from thinking about the dream. It's like I am in a half-awake and half-sleepy state and I can't control myself to get fully awake, I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.
I wake up to turn off the alarm, but my mind rushes back to thinking about the dream (because 99.9% of time it is very interesting and it seems like I need to dive into it further to understand/remember it). This cycle keeps on continuing, I drift to sleep while thinking about the dream, and then when I wake up there is a brand new dream in my head, and I get back to thinking about it. This cycle keeps on going for 2-3 hours, so my total sleep time from an outsider perspective is 10+ hours.
No matter how much I think before going to sleep to not think about the dreams in the morning no matter how interesting they are, I am not able to control myself in thinking about the dream in the morning and then just falling back to sleep eventually.
Don't get anxious. These kinds of studies are almost always overturned by another one within 12-24 months. Weak correlations are not worth worrying about.
Given that one of (emphasis one of) the reasons for long sleep duration is having poor quality of sleep, that doesn't surprise me. And if that is the only cause of negative correlation while other causes are harmless, that could also explain why this correlation is weak, no?
I get extreme headaches if I sleep > 9.5 hours. They're brutally bad. Sweet spot for me is > 6 but < 8.5 hours per night w/ earplugs and a sleep mask on. Quality > Quantity, at least for me.
I average 7 hours of sleep per night and do quite well on it. Used to do 5-6 hours/night and it eventually caught up to me in my 30s, but improving quality via ear plugs + mask + mattress went a lot further than an extra hour of sleep.
If I don’t set an alarm I always wake up much earlier, and grab my phone in fear that it’s too late. Setting an alarm at a very reasonable tim (ie >8h after going to bed) helps me sleep calmly, knowing that I will not oversleep.
The risk with an inconsistent waking time is shifting forward the circadian rhythm, if you sleep in later and later. When that occurs you'll fall asleep later as well, or wake up more often. A wind-down period ahead of bedtime can also offer some flexibility, if you happen to have enough sleep pressure to fall asleep earlier some nights.
Slightly different experience. Stopped using an alarm clock when we had kids. Seem to always wake up between 6 and 7am and often tired during the day ;)
Interesting. I found after some trail and error that I'm more rested and perform better on less than recommended 8h of sleep. My sweet spot is somewhere around 7h. Fitbit "magic" sleep score also seems to confirm that (better sleep score on less sleep). I also found that stress is the biggest factor in getting good night sleep. When stressed I can sleep 8h and still feel bleh.
I wonder if 8h of sleep is the cause of the better performance or they both are a result of less stressful life, better health or something else.
I've been sleeping approximately 9:30 to 4 and feel way better. Groggy upon waking up, but okay by 4:30, getting stuff done. Feels like there's a lot more time in the day. Probably because late nights were mostly wasted time eating junk food anyway. Allow myself some catch up sleep on the weekends, and it seems to work out.
It was hard at first but now that I am used to it, I'm hooked.
> I wonder if 8h of sleep is the cause of the better performance or they both are a result of less stressful life, better health or something else.
This illustrates well the problem with these kinds of studies. How do we know that stress isn't causing both little/poor sleep and e.g. decreased cognitive performance (as opposed to little sleep being the cause of a decrease in cognitive performance)?
It's not like we can create a control group where stressed people are forced to get 8 hours of good sleep every night.
Though the subjective measure of this study is better than nothing, in the coming years we'll be able to use sleep data for more concrete evidence.
At https://soundmind.co, we're building a headband focused on improving Sleep Performance, by monitoring your sleep state and using sound to alter sleep state. There is amazing research around improving sleep quality, by improving sleep maintenance (aka reducing waking during the night), increase occurrence and amplitude of sleep spindles, and more.
In initial trials, we've lowered average time awake from 1hr 41 minutes to 32 minutes, using a sample of 4 nights without stim, and 4 nights with. I need to do a blog post about that soon. We're still gathering more data.
If this is an area of interest, you can sign-up for the waitlist on our website, or happy to answer questions here.
I've signed up, because what you've said here sounds interesting - but good lord that website is hideous.
I would _never_ give a site like that my email. Consider at least showing your product/research/something that's not a stock image of... a Lion? A sunset? Waves on the beach?
You could probably sell a similar product with zero scientific research behind it and people would buy it. So please do post back when you publish results! Very curious to see if something like this could help me have better sleep.
Are there at least preliminary papers you can cite as the basis for this idea? because it sounds super interesting.
I'm bipolar so I've gone through periods where I sleep 18 hours a day and periods where I sleep 2 hours a night if at all. Caffeine intake doesn't seem to matter. Medication and good mental hygiene helps a lot with this issue.
Main thing for me has been quitting caffeine after lunchtime. For most of my life I just drank caffeine as if it were synomynous with hydration - coffee in the morning, diet sodas in the afternoon, teas in the evenings. And for years, I wondered why I couldn't sleep...
Withdrawal was surprising. On the first day, I fell asleep at 6pm until the next morning. The next day, 8pm until morning. Felt ill for a week. Ached all over. The waistband on my pyjamas was uncomfortable... felt like I had the flu, until my one allowed morning coffee, which made it all go away.
Never went full cold turkey, but compared to routine intake, it was close enough. I still have my coffee in the morning, but in the evening, I'm asleep as soon as my head hits the pillow. For the first time since I was a kid.
I recently went on a break from caffeine, and while the withdrawals weren't bad (I was only ever a one coffee in the morning person), I have since noticed how INCREDIBLY sensitive I am to caffeine. Now that I have no tolerance, having one coffee at any point during the day will completely ruin my sleep for that night (from ~7h down to ~4h with lots of awake time).
I'm at a point now where I don't think coffee is for me - I love the taste and the effect but not at the expense of a good night's sleep!
Around the age of 17 I used to regularly go to bed late so I could socialise, but I often had to be up at 8-9am for college / university / work. This meant I developed a fairly unhealthy sleep pattern and would often only get 6 hours of sleep a night.
10 years on and although I don't stay up to socialise anymore, I still really struggling to get enough sleep. No matter how tired I am throughout the day my mind seems to naturally wake up around 10pm and I rarely want to go to bed before 3am despite having to be up at 9am for work. On average I probably get 5-6 hours a night on a week day and 7-8 a night on weekends.
Also every now and then (2 or 3 times a year) my body simply refuses to sleep and I will be completely unable to sleep for 2-3 days. Again, although I know I need sleep I am not "tired". I'll put my head down on the pillow and nothing, my mind is racing and my body is fidgety and hyperactive.
I don't know if I've conditioned myself to develop an unhealthy sleep pattern as a teenager, but I really struggle with sleep these days. I have tried to condition myself with having a schedule and dimming lights past 9pm, but so far I haven't had much luck shutting my head off at an appropriate time. However when I do eventually sleep I will typically want to stay in bed for 12+ hours it's just that's rarely possible because of work, etc.
Does anyone have any tips for me? I seem to naturally want to sleep around 5-7pm so these days if I'm feeling particularly sleep deprived I'll try to get a couple of hours after work, but again this isn't always possible and sometimes my body will refuse to sleep even if I lie there for two hours.
I’ve found a type of box breathing to be a really effective way to fall asleep in recent weeks; breathe in through nose until lungs full, count 7 seconds, breathe out through mouth until lungs empty (really squeeze all the air out), count for 7 seconds. Repeat. Thoughts fade away from persistent focus on following the routine of it.
This is another cruel modern irony, we know more about the importance of sleep then ever before, yet we’ve built such a horrible world for sleep.
Light pollution, noise pollution, blue light emitting devices, being “connected” 24x7, synthetic bedding materials, global man made crisis to worry about.
Now study after study on how getting more sleep is important.
Up to 30% of people may have sleep apnea. I recommend everyone to get at least an at-home sleep test. In-lab is much more difficult to get insurance to cover, but you could pay $1,500+ out-of-pocket.
It is a horrendous condition that will ruin your life.
Sleep is such an interesting aspect of the human existence. We all need it, but so many of us have such drastically different experiences with it. Some people are early risers, others night owls. Some people have extremely vivid dreams, others have random jumbles, and some people nothing at all. Even the amount of sleep that a person needs can vary wildly. This whole thread is full of examples of people sharing their different experiences with sleep, almost as if no two people have the same exact patterns.
I fall asleep quite easy but I notice a correlation between dreaming or at least ability to remember the dream with how well rested I feel. Also, it seems that I have periods when I dream a lot, essentially every single day and periods like now when I don't.
I suspect connection with screen time as the period I had dreams was when I was reading a physical book before sleep while for the last 2 months I've been reading from Kindle.
I know that my sleep quality would increase if 1) I could keep my window open and get fresh air 2) have a silent environment like I did when I was a child/teen living in a remote area. Now I live next to a relatively busy street, so keeping my window open is not possible due to pollution, and using earplugs won't fully solve the noise issue either.
[+] [-] forgotmypw17|5 years ago|reply
Whenever I feel tired, I lay down to rest.
Whenever I am sleeping, I allow myself to sleep until I am "fully slept", meaning I can lay there for a while, still physically resting, and not fall asleep.
Sometimes this means only a couple hours, and sometimes it's 16 or more. Whatever it is, if I am tired and want to keep sleeping, that's what I do.
A couple of times I think I was coming down with something, I slept for more than 24 hours with only pee breaks. And I woke up feeling fresh as a cucumber, as they say.
Those flus and colds which I used to get once or twice a year and which would sometimes drag on for weeks? I can't remember the last time I've had that happen, but it's been several years now. (Of course, I have several other practices to thank for this, in addition to the sleep.)
I also practice what I call "dog sleep" or "cat sleep", meaning I lay down and close my eyes and fully rest my body, without necessarily losing all alertness or consciousness.
My rewards have been improved cognition, better health and overall feeling, and still being able to do occasional coding marathons like I used to when I was half my current age.
We've been conditioned to think of sleep as laziness and sloth, but nothing could be further from the truth on the cellular level. When you rest, your cells go to work cleaning, rebuilding, and renewing your body. Your mind also does sorting and self-analysis, and returns the results in the form of remembered dreams.
[+] [-] zascrash|5 years ago|reply
I felt I had to eat sweets frequently, drink coca-coca everyday and 3 meals a day etc. My body felt terrible when I didn't. I stopped listed to what my body wanted and consciously stop those things. First week it was really painful. Second week I got used to. Third week I completely changed. Now I have to force myself do eat sweets, drink soda or having so many meals a day.
I still listen my body about drink water and not sure if I should really listen it when it comes to sleep.
[+] [-] dorkwood|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] filleokus|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] srl|5 years ago|reply
I don't really take sleeping that seriously in general, but I used to get sick pretty frequently (sick enough to not work, a couple times a year). Nowadays I have a routine, and it's not so different: if I feel a tiny bit sick, I go home, lie in bed, and order semi-healthy Mediterranean food (I have specific cravings when I get sick -- is this common?). I stay that way until I can't stand being in bed any more. I also avoid any source of stress.
The number of days per year when I'm sick has probably gone down by a factor of 4: I get properly sick half as often, and when I am sick, I get better much faster. Almost as importantly, getting sick is no longer "miserable" in the same way. It seems a substantial part of the misery of being sick (with something mild, like a cold or, at my age, flu) just comes from trying to do things you shouldn't try to do. Lying in bed and executing a nap/snack/pee/read loop... that's not so bad.
(As others in this thread love to point out, this doesn't work for people with bad sick leave, or stressful jobs, or single parents, and so on and so forth. That's a strong case for sick leave etc., as far as I see.)
[+] [-] Rivosa|5 years ago|reply
I advise anyone reading this and experiencing similar sleep pattern or fatigue to visit their doctor. This could be anything from diabetes, iron difeciency, Vitamin D difeciancy, and whole other things that could be wrong. Please don't use someone's else experience as the whole truth.
[+] [-] rajinikantham|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] licebmi__at__|5 years ago|reply
I do have some kind of FOMO, not really about being hyper productive but to be conscious, I could consider a perfectly well spent day even if I just lazed in bed, but i would need to be able to even think about stuff, watch the ceiling or just feel the sheets on my hands.
With how little time I have on this planet and all the possible experiences, I would definitely do without sleeping if I could.
[+] [-] graeme|5 years ago|reply
Do you mean in the day you rest, and you sleep at night? Or you mean you might sleep four hours in the day and four at night?
Not sure if the first line means rest in the sense of cat sleep, or actual sleep.
[+] [-] rapind|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Reflecticon|5 years ago|reply
How do you keep your sleep rhythms while you're working?
[+] [-] justsomeuser|5 years ago|reply
I do not understand how people can live off 7 hours of sleep each night. It seems a big advantage though - they have 5 hours more per day.
[+] [-] random3|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mathattack|5 years ago|reply
Conceptually you are on to something. Pushing exhaustion isn’t smart.
[+] [-] chordalkeyboard|5 years ago|reply
I would like to hear these other practices as well. I think your sleep practices are sound and derived from a solid theoretical basis.
[+] [-] asdf333|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drclau|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawayamzn1|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pulkitsh1234|5 years ago|reply
In my school days I used to maintain a dream diary, where I would note down every dream I had after waking up. I stopped doing that when I got into college, but dreams never stopped and I never stopped analysing and trying to remember the dreams.
Fast forward to present time (10 years from school), whenever I want to wake up i.e. after 6-7 hours of sleep I can't stop myself from thinking about the dream. It's like I am in a half-awake and half-sleepy state and I can't control myself to get fully awake, I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.
I wake up to turn off the alarm, but my mind rushes back to thinking about the dream (because 99.9% of time it is very interesting and it seems like I need to dive into it further to understand/remember it). This cycle keeps on continuing, I drift to sleep while thinking about the dream, and then when I wake up there is a brand new dream in my head, and I get back to thinking about it. This cycle keeps on going for 2-3 hours, so my total sleep time from an outsider perspective is 10+ hours.
No matter how much I think before going to sleep to not think about the dreams in the morning no matter how interesting they are, I am not able to control myself in thinking about the dream in the morning and then just falling back to sleep eventually.
[+] [-] TaupeRanger|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] georgewsinger|5 years ago|reply
> For cognition only, associations shift to a negative association of sleep duration and cognition for participants sleeping more than 8 hr a day.
Though looking at the charts from the study I can say that Nassim Taleb would not be pleased with how weak the correlations seem to be:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/cms/asset/545fd00f-8924-4047...
[+] [-] blackbear_|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vanderZwan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icelancer|5 years ago|reply
I average 7 hours of sleep per night and do quite well on it. Used to do 5-6 hours/night and it eventually caught up to me in my 30s, but improving quality via ear plugs + mask + mattress went a lot further than an extra hour of sleep.
[+] [-] k__|5 years ago|reply
Now, I just sleep as long as I need, which is usually 8-9h a day.
I struggled with sleep for years, but now I sleep good.
[+] [-] stingraycharles|5 years ago|reply
It’s interesting how different minds work. :)
[+] [-] slothtrop|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] calcsam|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kombinar|5 years ago|reply
I wonder if 8h of sleep is the cause of the better performance or they both are a result of less stressful life, better health or something else.
[+] [-] daxfohl|5 years ago|reply
It was hard at first but now that I am used to it, I'm hooked.
[+] [-] runeks|5 years ago|reply
This illustrates well the problem with these kinds of studies. How do we know that stress isn't causing both little/poor sleep and e.g. decreased cognitive performance (as opposed to little sleep being the cause of a decrease in cognitive performance)?
It's not like we can create a control group where stressed people are forced to get 8 hours of good sleep every night.
[+] [-] pedalpete|5 years ago|reply
At https://soundmind.co, we're building a headband focused on improving Sleep Performance, by monitoring your sleep state and using sound to alter sleep state. There is amazing research around improving sleep quality, by improving sleep maintenance (aka reducing waking during the night), increase occurrence and amplitude of sleep spindles, and more.
In initial trials, we've lowered average time awake from 1hr 41 minutes to 32 minutes, using a sample of 4 nights without stim, and 4 nights with. I need to do a blog post about that soon. We're still gathering more data.
If this is an area of interest, you can sign-up for the waitlist on our website, or happy to answer questions here.
[+] [-] jakequade|5 years ago|reply
I would _never_ give a site like that my email. Consider at least showing your product/research/something that's not a stock image of... a Lion? A sunset? Waves on the beach?
[+] [-] ShamelessC|5 years ago|reply
Are there at least preliminary papers you can cite as the basis for this idea? because it sounds super interesting.
[+] [-] okareaman|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benlumen|5 years ago|reply
Withdrawal was surprising. On the first day, I fell asleep at 6pm until the next morning. The next day, 8pm until morning. Felt ill for a week. Ached all over. The waistband on my pyjamas was uncomfortable... felt like I had the flu, until my one allowed morning coffee, which made it all go away.
Never went full cold turkey, but compared to routine intake, it was close enough. I still have my coffee in the morning, but in the evening, I'm asleep as soon as my head hits the pillow. For the first time since I was a kid.
[+] [-] jozzas|5 years ago|reply
I'm at a point now where I don't think coffee is for me - I love the taste and the effect but not at the expense of a good night's sleep!
[+] [-] kypro|5 years ago|reply
10 years on and although I don't stay up to socialise anymore, I still really struggling to get enough sleep. No matter how tired I am throughout the day my mind seems to naturally wake up around 10pm and I rarely want to go to bed before 3am despite having to be up at 9am for work. On average I probably get 5-6 hours a night on a week day and 7-8 a night on weekends.
Also every now and then (2 or 3 times a year) my body simply refuses to sleep and I will be completely unable to sleep for 2-3 days. Again, although I know I need sleep I am not "tired". I'll put my head down on the pillow and nothing, my mind is racing and my body is fidgety and hyperactive.
I don't know if I've conditioned myself to develop an unhealthy sleep pattern as a teenager, but I really struggle with sleep these days. I have tried to condition myself with having a schedule and dimming lights past 9pm, but so far I haven't had much luck shutting my head off at an appropriate time. However when I do eventually sleep I will typically want to stay in bed for 12+ hours it's just that's rarely possible because of work, etc.
Does anyone have any tips for me? I seem to naturally want to sleep around 5-7pm so these days if I'm feeling particularly sleep deprived I'll try to get a couple of hours after work, but again this isn't always possible and sometimes my body will refuse to sleep even if I lie there for two hours.
[+] [-] carrozo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bamboozled|5 years ago|reply
Light pollution, noise pollution, blue light emitting devices, being “connected” 24x7, synthetic bedding materials, global man made crisis to worry about.
Now study after study on how getting more sleep is important.
[+] [-] kovek|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baccheion|5 years ago|reply
Melatonin blunts much of degeneration triggers that occur with age and is balanced by vitamin D3 (+ K2; ensure magnesium sufficiency) in the morning.
[+] [-] hizxy|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justinko|5 years ago|reply
It is a horrendous condition that will ruin your life.
[+] [-] zadjii|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kosirich|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2OEH8eoCRo0|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aeolun|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vfinn|5 years ago|reply