-- The once-per-year job cycle where if you don't find something you like, you have to wait another year to land your next soft money position?
-- The lack of perception of fairness or clear criteria for how the top fellowships are awarded?
-- The feeling that you're in an endless apprenticeship model like a pyramid scheme where only by the top people leaving do you get a chance to have some responsibility, better pay, freedom?
It’s funny how you can substitute many research fields instead of “astrophysics”.
Well, did I say “funny”? I meant “utterly depressing”. I’m in because I don’t think I would like any other job better, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who flee this broken system.
I'm a new-isly minted biophysics PhD. The reason I got into physics was because it felt fulfilling and my opinion of industry was shaped by a high-school internship at a defense contractor which was a total slog.
During my PhD, I got the full experience, drumming up new ideas, grant/proposal writing, managing and setting project goals, maintaining collaborations and doing the actual work. It was fulfilling and fun especially working with great group of people that are 100% dedicated but, boy, was really, really hard.
The long hours, terrible pay, and watching people stuck in the post-doc treadmill got to me. Plus, I saw quite a few 2-body problems fall apart (mine included). I also watched my advisor go through the tenure process, it seemed like he never slept.
It's been challenging getting into industry (I'm still looking :) ), but, if I make it, I'll write a blog post to see if there are any regrets in 5 years. But, like the author, I'm already missing the culture, going to seminars (the terrible seminar coffee), and nerding out with friends in other disciplines.
There will always be regrets, but at least you'll sleep better and rub your tears with Benjamins if you leave academia and regret that :)
Academia will always look like the grass is greener "I can do whatever I want" type. But we shouldn't forget actually you can't, you can only do what others think you're good at, and what the grant review panels think you can feasibly do.
My plan is to just use the extra money from a tech job to open my garage lab. It's getting easier by the day. A fancy deltavision microscope costs less than a cheap boat, so it's not even an expensive hobby if you think about it. You really can do whatever you want, you'll just be limited by money than by other people :)
I'm another astrophysicist who left academia for industry and this post definitely speaks to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I regret my decision to leave academia, but I will admit to wondering what could have been if I had stayed. After getting my PhD I had a postdoc position lined up with a professor I was excited to work with and had won the NSF astronomy & astrophysics postdoctoral fellowship. (It's not the most prestigious fellowship in astronomy, but it's not too far down the list, depending on your sub-field.)
My feeling at the time was that I was a good enough researcher that getting postdoc positions probably wouldn't be a problem, so I could stay in the field for another ~6--8 years if I wanted to. And if my research had gone well in those jobs there was a reasonable chance (say, 50-50) that I could get a tenure-track job somewhere. But I wasn't super comfortable with that risk along with having very little freedom as to where I would live. (Having a two-body problem didn't help either.) I also factored in the opportunity cost of staying, say, ~8 years in postdoc roles before switching to industry and figured that if there was a good chance that I was going to leave academia eventually, I should do it sooner rather than later. Part of this was motivated by some researchers I interacted with who were really smart, did great research, but just kept jumping from postdoc to postdoc and couldn't land anything permanent.
While I do miss the astro research, I have learned a lot from industry that I would never have even known existed had I stayed in astronomy. (This may be more a function of working at a startup than industry work in general.) I'm not sure what work OP is doing specifically, but the industry work I've been doing has been pretty fulfilling. It helps that I've mostly been working on applying ML to health technology. Industry is a big place! There is a lot of fulfilling work out there even if it can take time to find it.
I studied atomic physics, graduated in the early 90s. I was extremely fortunate that both of my parents are industrial scientists (now retired), so I had good role models, and working in industry wasn't a foreign idea for me.
I've been in industry for 25+ years, with no regrets. I've told people that there's a good living to be made doing things that other people hate. In my case, I solve hard multidisciplinary problems, usually involving math and sometimes physics. Persuading people to hire me can be tricky, but persuading them to keep me is easy.
The mind has a way of tricking us into remembering many of the good things and fewer of the bad ones(or sometimes even rationalizing bad things into good ones). Not to say that the regret here isn't valid, but just to be careful how much stock to put into missing the 'good ole days'.
"The people who questioned my decision to become an extronomer were right. I was wrong. It seems too late to get back in."
This mindset irks me because this individual strikes me as being bright, talented, curious, and hard working. You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. It is different if you assess the opportunity costs and risks and rewards with going back to astrophysics and decide that it is not worth it and move on...but to say it is 'too late' is you pouting and trying to let yourself down easy.
This perspective IMO is informed by a slow-burning (like, career-scale) FOMO where if you're not as successful as the person getting $200k+ offers from FAANG right out of university then you are behind and a failure.
This is a persistent sentiment in CS and adjacent circles, I've noticed, and a serious hindrance to finding fulfillment in life and career.
It's not a race, it's an Iron Man, and for the vast majority of people just finishing somewhere they feel proud of is (should be) enough.
> You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience.
The author obviously understands this is a learning experience--that's why they wrote the essay in the first place. The challenge is that, on a practical level, starting over will likely take too many years, with too great a risk of not getting a job in academia. This is hardly "pouting and trying to let yourself down easy." It's the disheartening wisdom that sometimes you learn things too late in life to benefit from them.
> but to say it is 'too late' is you pouting and trying to let yourself down easy.
I don't think the author is saying he has been out of the field too long, but rather that hiring committees (even postdoc advisors, or fellowship committees) looking for astrophysics faculty candidates are not going to give a second glance to someone who left academia for several years.
> Being at the forefront of figuring things out about the workings of the Universe is amazing, and unparalleled in any business setting.
This is the key attitude to gauging whether it's worth sticking it out in academia. I tell people you really need to be 'obsessed' with science (indeed, obsession is really a key concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaYwt0gf20). Just being interested in problem-solving isn't close to enough to put up with the low pay and rather tough working conditions. There's lots of interesting problems out there in industry.
This is exactly the conclusion that I came to before I also left astrophysics for industry. In order to outweigh all the cons of working in academia, you really have to have a deep passion or obsession with the particular problem you are researching. In my opinion, being _just_ interested is not enough, and that's where I found myself. I drove myself down the academic career path because I thought I would find meaning and purpose there, but when I didn't find it all of the pressures and toxicity of academia just didn't seem worth it. It's only been two years since I left, and sure there are some things that I miss, but I definitely do not regret leaving.
This reminds of a colleague's joke: what do you call a physicist a few years after they get their degree?
A data scientist!
I only completed my undergrad in physics before shifting to tech, but I've seen many instances of people working in software/programming/data science roles after their undergrad/grad studies in physics.
What the author appears to be describing is the experience of being a PhD student/postdoc that he misses. As faculty you are (usually) no longer running experiments and analyzing data, but managing people/projects, writing/reviewing papers, teaching, sitting on committees, and constantly applying for grants. While it is indeed unlikely he can find a faculty position after 7 years of being out of academia, he may in fact be happier looking for a senior scientist position at a university. As long as he is okay with the salary that is.
Most of the regrets here seem to be about quitting academia or "meaningful" work rather than astrophysics per se.
No reason why as a data scientist he can't pivot from financial services into something more research oriented within industry, or back into academia; the pay will likely be much less in the latter case, but the opportunities for work on a more meaningful track with like-minded people will be there.
As another STEM PhD data scientist who is thinking of pivoting back into academia at some point, do you have specific examples of the kinds of jobs that are available that would welcome and benefit from industry DS experience? Perhaps teaching DS or computer science?
It is probably too late to get a tenure (or scientist) track position, but through perseverance I think you can work as a software developer (and probably a bit of a pay cut if you are OK with that) in any number of scientific research institutions (e.g., JPL, any number of FFRDCs). Many of these software engineering jobs have the possibility of working remotely, as well. And your PhD will be a big help if you are applying for NSF, NASA, DOE grants. I work at an atmospheric science research institute and we are in the process of hiring an AI/ML developer. I too prefer the academic / research institute life. I am looking forward to getting back to science conferences when the pandemic is over.
Let me just say to all those out there who have left academia and went into industry: academia would be happy to have you back!
I went into "academia" (or close to it), doing software engineering for a telescope being built. Astronomers are a great little community out there, and they really need help writing code. A lot of them aren't familiar or have experience with best industry practices that could save them so much time/money/heartache.
Bunches of projects are hiring, and if you have creds, and industry experience, that will only increase your value. I'm sure you could find a job at any of the wonderful facilities wherever you want to be around the world!
Sometimes you have to look at the grass from the other side to realize it's greener, and that's fine. Some day I may go back to industry and get paid again. But it's all good fun anyway.
I read it as being difficult to go back to the same type of work they were doing before they left. Marcel's expertise was in simulations and theory. As you note it's (relatively) easy to get a job in telescope software development coming from industry, but it's much harder on the theoretical (and probably experimental) side where it's less about technical skills and more about being up-to-date on the literature and advocating for your ideas. You would have to essentially start over at the thesis stage of grad school to regain the domain knowledge and build up a body of work. You'd probably work faster than you were the first time just because of the additional knowledge and wisdom, but I doubt many professors would be willing to hire you at even a Postdoc salary without a second thesis-like investment.
Agree with you - but I think the author of the article wants to get back in as a tenure-track professor rather than a programmer or data scientist on a scientific project. They would probably see coming back in as “staff” as an unacceptable loss of status and prestige in their field. (I think that status distinction is a terrible and stupid feature of academic research but it is very deeply-ingrained as folks are socialized in PhD programs to believe that the tenure track is the only route to happiness and academic success).
I wish more people thought like you and very much agree that academia could benefit from an influx for folks with industry experience and programming best practices!
I applied for some academic-related software development positions a couple of times. In the interviews they never asked a single software development question and each time revealed they had decided to “just let IT handle the software details.” I am not certain that much of academia understands the complexity of the systems they want to build except from the viewpoint of their research
The thing is if you don't quit then there is going to be another post about regretting not quitting.
I have gone past the age to feel strongly regret to any choice I made. As long as I made a desicive choice without much delay I'm good with it (of course unless something really bad happens), because I know I'd regret if I choose the other way (or not), anyway.
> I miss passion and being proud of what I do. The internet says I have ”the sexiest job of the 21st century”, but I think my previous job was more enjoyable to brag about at birthday parties.
Hits way too close to home!
As a bullshit data scientist, I cry a little inside when people ask me what I do. Whilst I deeply miss academia for the same reasons in that post, I absolutely don't regret leaving. I do however, regret quitting the bank/quant job I got immediately after finishing my PhD. Was far more interesting, challenging, productive and way more useful than the absolute nonsense I typically work on now.
This reminds me of a semi-recent Freakanomics podcast where Steve Levitt voiced his disillusionment with academia where you could spend years working on a paper that only gets read by a handful of people. It was contrasted to business applications that can help hundreds or thousands of people. In his words, he had “gotten tired of academic research and decided I should try to do something useful for a while.”
Maybe grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or maybe we should be focused on a more balanced approach to our careers.
I went to work in tech from academia, but I wanted to publish a paper I had started working on during my last months as a researchers. I worked on it during weekends, sometimes snatching hours from work. I sent it out for peer-review and it was published. One year after publication, it collected the astounding number of exactly zero citations.
If people are reading this article and perhaps considering a serious reassessment of their life, I strongly recommend doing an outreach to those many folks who have made such a move in both directions In particular, to a sample of those who made the move 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago and even longer. Time brings perspective...a 5 year view is different than a 10 year view than is different from a 20 year view. I did a bit flip at around 12 years.
Also there are lots of ways to maintain a connection with the academic worldview without being a full-time academic...adjunct, professional societies, journals, online communities, etc. You can eat the food without being a dishwasher.
This post isn't about eating the food, it's about cooking it! And sure, you get to spend time in the kitchen as the server or even the owner, but ultimately only the cook does the work.
It was interesting to see the author specifically call out the joys of working in a University environment. It is a unique environment, and working with/for some of the smartest people in the world is a nice perk.
You learned something really important about what you don't like. That's not worth regretting.
Get back into academia with newfound commitment. This time you won't be looking over your shoulder wondering if you're missing something in "the real world."
I sometimes regret the road not taken with academia (in my case History), but if I am honest with myself given the frequency of mental breakdowns and depression that marked my college years, there’s a good chance that I would have burned out or died. Pursuing financial stability and then a family life has made my mind overall more stable, even if I don’t get the same mental challenges I might otherwise get. And while I might have been able achieve financial security and family life in academia, there is a good chance it would not happen or would come much delayed.
Not saying that this is the best of all universes but just saying that the road not travelled isn’t necessarily one that would haven ended in success, even though it’s tempting to think of things in that way.
You can definitely go back -- academia loves people with industry experience. Few people go back because they typically earn less money in academic jobs. So you now have something academia loves, and there is little competition of other people having that kind of experience.
I think what trips people up is that the opportunities to return are not necessarily the same as the ones that you would look for if you were still on the direct path.
To start with, if you're tied to an area, you have to start your search with the area and get creative finding the right job title instead of the other way around.
[+] [-] supernova87a|5 years ago|reply
Hmm, which do I miss?
-- The once-per-year job cycle where if you don't find something you like, you have to wait another year to land your next soft money position?
-- The lack of perception of fairness or clear criteria for how the top fellowships are awarded?
-- The feeling that you're in an endless apprenticeship model like a pyramid scheme where only by the top people leaving do you get a chance to have some responsibility, better pay, freedom?
Hmm. Turns out I don't miss it so much.
[+] [-] supernova87a|5 years ago|reply
-- Seeing an amazing world I would never have seen through conferences, observing time, telescopes, etc.
-- Being able to read what I want, explore what I want, in the hours of the day I want
-- Being able to do something to the end, fully and well
For sure, sometimes I wish to go back to those positive things. But right now the reasons I left continue to outweigh the reasons to stay/go back.
[+] [-] kergonath|5 years ago|reply
Well, did I say “funny”? I meant “utterly depressing”. I’m in because I don’t think I would like any other job better, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who flee this broken system.
[+] [-] rusticpenn|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fnord77|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unemphysbro|5 years ago|reply
During my PhD, I got the full experience, drumming up new ideas, grant/proposal writing, managing and setting project goals, maintaining collaborations and doing the actual work. It was fulfilling and fun especially working with great group of people that are 100% dedicated but, boy, was really, really hard.
The long hours, terrible pay, and watching people stuck in the post-doc treadmill got to me. Plus, I saw quite a few 2-body problems fall apart (mine included). I also watched my advisor go through the tenure process, it seemed like he never slept.
It's been challenging getting into industry (I'm still looking :) ), but, if I make it, I'll write a blog post to see if there are any regrets in 5 years. But, like the author, I'm already missing the culture, going to seminars (the terrible seminar coffee), and nerding out with friends in other disciplines.
[+] [-] ramraj07|5 years ago|reply
Academia will always look like the grass is greener "I can do whatever I want" type. But we shouldn't forget actually you can't, you can only do what others think you're good at, and what the grant review panels think you can feasibly do.
My plan is to just use the extra money from a tech job to open my garage lab. It's getting easier by the day. A fancy deltavision microscope costs less than a cheap boat, so it's not even an expensive hobby if you think about it. You really can do whatever you want, you'll just be limited by money than by other people :)
[+] [-] foota|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] antognini|5 years ago|reply
My feeling at the time was that I was a good enough researcher that getting postdoc positions probably wouldn't be a problem, so I could stay in the field for another ~6--8 years if I wanted to. And if my research had gone well in those jobs there was a reasonable chance (say, 50-50) that I could get a tenure-track job somewhere. But I wasn't super comfortable with that risk along with having very little freedom as to where I would live. (Having a two-body problem didn't help either.) I also factored in the opportunity cost of staying, say, ~8 years in postdoc roles before switching to industry and figured that if there was a good chance that I was going to leave academia eventually, I should do it sooner rather than later. Part of this was motivated by some researchers I interacted with who were really smart, did great research, but just kept jumping from postdoc to postdoc and couldn't land anything permanent.
While I do miss the astro research, I have learned a lot from industry that I would never have even known existed had I stayed in astronomy. (This may be more a function of working at a startup than industry work in general.) I'm not sure what work OP is doing specifically, but the industry work I've been doing has been pretty fulfilling. It helps that I've mostly been working on applying ML to health technology. Industry is a big place! There is a lot of fulfilling work out there even if it can take time to find it.
[+] [-] analog31|5 years ago|reply
I've been in industry for 25+ years, with no regrets. I've told people that there's a good living to be made doing things that other people hate. In my case, I solve hard multidisciplinary problems, usually involving math and sometimes physics. Persuading people to hire me can be tricky, but persuading them to keep me is easy.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mym1990|5 years ago|reply
"The people who questioned my decision to become an extronomer were right. I was wrong. It seems too late to get back in."
This mindset irks me because this individual strikes me as being bright, talented, curious, and hard working. You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn't work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. It is different if you assess the opportunity costs and risks and rewards with going back to astrophysics and decide that it is not worth it and move on...but to say it is 'too late' is you pouting and trying to let yourself down easy.
[+] [-] uoaei|5 years ago|reply
This is a persistent sentiment in CS and adjacent circles, I've noticed, and a serious hindrance to finding fulfillment in life and career.
It's not a race, it's an Iron Man, and for the vast majority of people just finishing somewhere they feel proud of is (should be) enough.
[+] [-] teachrdan|5 years ago|reply
The author obviously understands this is a learning experience--that's why they wrote the essay in the first place. The challenge is that, on a practical level, starting over will likely take too many years, with too great a risk of not getting a job in academia. This is hardly "pouting and trying to let yourself down easy." It's the disheartening wisdom that sometimes you learn things too late in life to benefit from them.
[+] [-] sidr|5 years ago|reply
I don't think the author is saying he has been out of the field too long, but rather that hiring committees (even postdoc advisors, or fellowship committees) looking for astrophysics faculty candidates are not going to give a second glance to someone who left academia for several years.
[+] [-] reptation|5 years ago|reply
This is the key attitude to gauging whether it's worth sticking it out in academia. I tell people you really need to be 'obsessed' with science (indeed, obsession is really a key concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaYwt0gf20). Just being interested in problem-solving isn't close to enough to put up with the low pay and rather tough working conditions. There's lots of interesting problems out there in industry.
[+] [-] skullgrid|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] otras|5 years ago|reply
A data scientist!
I only completed my undergrad in physics before shifting to tech, but I've seen many instances of people working in software/programming/data science roles after their undergrad/grad studies in physics.
[+] [-] atemerev|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LetThereBeLight|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mellosouls|5 years ago|reply
No reason why as a data scientist he can't pivot from financial services into something more research oriented within industry, or back into academia; the pay will likely be much less in the latter case, but the opportunities for work on a more meaningful track with like-minded people will be there.
[+] [-] magneticnorth|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] julienchastang|5 years ago|reply
It is probably too late to get a tenure (or scientist) track position, but through perseverance I think you can work as a software developer (and probably a bit of a pay cut if you are OK with that) in any number of scientific research institutions (e.g., JPL, any number of FFRDCs). Many of these software engineering jobs have the possibility of working remotely, as well. And your PhD will be a big help if you are applying for NSF, NASA, DOE grants. I work at an atmospheric science research institute and we are in the process of hiring an AI/ML developer. I too prefer the academic / research institute life. I am looking forward to getting back to science conferences when the pandemic is over.
[+] [-] cbanek|5 years ago|reply
I went into "academia" (or close to it), doing software engineering for a telescope being built. Astronomers are a great little community out there, and they really need help writing code. A lot of them aren't familiar or have experience with best industry practices that could save them so much time/money/heartache.
Bunches of projects are hiring, and if you have creds, and industry experience, that will only increase your value. I'm sure you could find a job at any of the wonderful facilities wherever you want to be around the world!
Sometimes you have to look at the grass from the other side to realize it's greener, and that's fine. Some day I may go back to industry and get paid again. But it's all good fun anyway.
[+] [-] in_cahoots|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] libraryofbabel|5 years ago|reply
I wish more people thought like you and very much agree that academia could benefit from an influx for folks with industry experience and programming best practices!
[+] [-] gammarator|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andi999|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hertzrat|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] markus_zhang|5 years ago|reply
I have gone past the age to feel strongly regret to any choice I made. As long as I made a desicive choice without much delay I'm good with it (of course unless something really bad happens), because I know I'd regret if I choose the other way (or not), anyway.
[+] [-] unemphysbro|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dcl|5 years ago|reply
Hits way too close to home!
As a bullshit data scientist, I cry a little inside when people ask me what I do. Whilst I deeply miss academia for the same reasons in that post, I absolutely don't regret leaving. I do however, regret quitting the bank/quant job I got immediately after finishing my PhD. Was far more interesting, challenging, productive and way more useful than the absolute nonsense I typically work on now.
[+] [-] mateo411|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bumby|5 years ago|reply
Maybe grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or maybe we should be focused on a more balanced approach to our careers.
[+] [-] borroka|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onecommentman|5 years ago|reply
Also there are lots of ways to maintain a connection with the academic worldview without being a full-time academic...adjunct, professional societies, journals, online communities, etc. You can eat the food without being a dishwasher.
[+] [-] SiempreViernes|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] secabeen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sujeetb|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aqme28|5 years ago|reply
Get back into academia with newfound commitment. This time you won't be looking over your shoulder wondering if you're missing something in "the real world."
[+] [-] hpoe|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aqme28|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klipt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SiempreViernes|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] InfiniteRand|5 years ago|reply
Not saying that this is the best of all universes but just saying that the road not travelled isn’t necessarily one that would haven ended in success, even though it’s tempting to think of things in that way.
[+] [-] beeforpork|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrumbut|5 years ago|reply
To start with, if you're tied to an area, you have to start your search with the area and get creative finding the right job title instead of the other way around.