"The law states that customers who accept an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online must be able to cancel the service online. [...] The law means you won't have to make anymore phone calls to obscure customer service hotlines to cancel services like news subscriptions, music streaming or meal plans, for example."
I have one that is even better. Bell Canada. They require you to speak to the "loyalty" team before you can have a service cancelled. That team is only available by phone. That team has a 1 hour wait time during the hours that they are open. That team likes to hang up on you. That team calls you back from numbers that cannot accept calls. That team is not available by chat or email and every other department has no access in the tools to effectively cancel a service.
I escalated to the crtc and opened a case. I got a call back from someone who was very good at apologising for this policy but was at the same time very clear that this was within their legal rights as a service provider.
Super convenient that I can sign up to any service with one click though.
Why don't just send them a letter and block their debits on your account?
This is a French perspective where such a reaction would be normal. I did it twice, one company called to say I am in the wrong, I asked them to please repeat so that I can record that for the lawsuit.
I've had a very similar experience with Fido Solutions a few years ago.
When I eventually gave up and called, the representative tried to convince me not to cancel by describing the various scenarios in which emergencies could happen (including my family getting hurt) and I wouldn't be reachable without the phone plan.
Isn't it one thing when a faceless corporation does this, and another thing when a startup is doing this to learn about why customers are churning so they can improve their product?
"In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online"
Now I know why some magazines won't let you subscribe online - they take your credit card details on paper so that you can only cancel by calling them. I would rather close my credit card than call.
It's been downvoted to hell (rightfully so), but I wanted to surface this comment in this thread from the guy who bought BareMetrics about a month ago:
The gall is astounding. When it's this clear you won't retain the customer, what possible reason do you have for denying them the cancellation? Either complete lack of judgement or childish spite.
I've met Brian. It's so disappointing to see him do this.
I wonder if they do some sort of customer verification before they delete the data and maybe this process is meant to help prevent a bad actor from deleting/closing your account on your behalf?
That's infuriating. Thanks @cmdkhalilov for bringing this up, I know for a fact I'll not forget this kind of behavior.
As someone with intense social anxiety, forcing me to call someone is a sure way to trap (extort?) me in your service. I guess a credit card charge back would warrant a call as well.
Hey dude--we're not a consumer service so rest easy! If you're running a business, you want a vendor that you can call (why folks running real businesses love Rackspace and hate AWS when things aren't working).
Look, baremetrics people, stop digging. You’re mismanaging a really really low hanging fruit of a PR crisis. Just stop. Learn from this, listen to public outcry, change your policy, and for fuck’s sake, stop entrenching your position publicly.
You are in the wrong, and even if you think you aren’t, the way you’re handling this right now proves the point.
The irony of this sort of stuff is that I've gone back to a number of services over the years where I cancelled and deleted my account but never to a service that made it hard to leave.
Netflix has definitely gotten money out of me by making it very easy to cancel/resubscribe/cancel/resubscribe that they wouldn't have gotten if canceling had been a pain the first time.
Bear in mind that Baremetrics removed self-serve account cancellation back in 2015. The founder admits in a blog post that it’s to reduce churn, and reduce churn it did, by 15%.
The blog post you're linking to was an experiment back in 2015. We re-enabled self-service cancellation right after that, and that was the go-to cancellation method since. We made the change to call-to-cancel on December 1st, as part of the playbook Xenon installs at every company they acquire.
Xenon Partners, who acquired Baremetrics has a "Playbook". The guy who is shown in the twitter image is Brian Sierakowski (https://www.linkedin.com/in/briansierakowski/) who is in charge of running the "Xenon Playbook" for Baremetrics.
What Xenon does is acquire floundering / stagnating / doing ok SaaS companies from founders who want to sell. They buy the company with a structured acquisition (see above) and then they run their "playbook" to pump revenue and profits. Then they will sell the company for some multiple.
They will arbitrage their payments to the founder to make sure that cash flow works out. So, what you're seeing here is the Xenon playbook in action: accelerate revenues, decrease churn, slow payables, all that. I wonder what else is in their playbook.
Xenon was itself acquired by a firm called DreamFactory which seems to have started the model in 2017 or 2018, and then took on the Xenon brand themselves to operate their SaaS Private Equity / Hedge Fund model.
I don't understand the thinking at businesses that do this. They're obviously not going to keep this guy's business, their new terms for cancellation may or may not be enforceable where he is, they're risking getting hit with chargebacks if they try to force the issue by charging the card anyway... and they're fighting him in full view of the Internet.
Surely they understand that this is going to do the rounds on social media and tech forums, and that a significant proportion of their entire global market is likely to have heard about the dispute within the next few days? And that looking both incompetent and untrustworthy, as they obviously do here, is going to risk both losing existing customers and deterring potential new ones?
I think a federal consumer protection law here would be good - something along the lines that it needs to be possible to cancel an account using the same communications method you used to create the account. If you made an account with a web form, you can cancel with a web form. If you had to call to set it up, its reasonable to have to call to un-set it up. But you should never need to call when you've set it up over the web (except in exceptional circumstances).
Some areas have something along these lines, but not many in the grand scheme of things.
Also maybe something about notifications of pending recurring charges. Those two tactics are pure slime from my perspective.
Let me guess, it's one of those Comcast style calls where you call to disconnect your service but end up upgrading instead because you are bad at saying "no" to the silver tongued person on the other line... (and plus they just gave you mates rates)
They do claim "it's not a sales rep" though, so the only other motivation I can think of is manual feedback collection.
Long time customer of Baremetrics here. And this shady practice is really really offputting, to the extent where we are now looking into cancelling (without a phone call, of course)
I fucked my credit in Germany because cell phone plans and fixed line DSL contract term commitments auto-renew for another 24 months automatically and have to be cancelled in writing.
I sent them cancellations, but it only works if you send the cancellation in the last 90 days (or something) of the 24 months. Miss the window and you're on the hook for 24 more payments.
It's the most customer-hostile experience I have ever had with a company in the global west.
I decided it was easier to just let them try to collect, and stopped the autodebit to them.
Some say you can still hear their dunning emails to this day, when the wind is blowing...
Would threatening a chargeback have changed the response from Baremetrics? That's usually the nuclear action to these type of shenanigans, and the threat of it is often the proper deterrent.
You can do worse than threaten a chargeback by going directly and filling a complaint with their payment processor (Stripe). If Stripe deplatformed them they would be in a scramble to not lose their business entirely, all it takes is an irate phone call from the company that handles all of their revenue to get their issues with violating state law and ToS for their service providers promptly resolved.
I also suggested elsewhere a complaint to the CA AG.
A CEO fielding a call from their payment processor or AGs office has a humbling effect.
NY times does this too. You have to call to unsubscribe. Subscribe is one click quick process.
I have come to accept the fact that US corps run via a “grow at any cost” algorithm/herd mentalofu. They will bend and twist every law to their favor even if it’s a terrible user experience.
They link to a Zendesk instance but the actual form doesn't seem to render at all hence no ticket can be submitted.
Presumably this is caused by one of the various ad/tracker blocking items I have running but the fact you can't submit a ticket via what should otherwise be a plain HTML form is kinda nuts
And I think it becomes more common if there isn’t a mechanism to push back. All kinds of dark patterns (you have to remember a code you supposedly set with AT&T when you first signed up that — get this — is never used for any other service). Verizon just paused my billing and then started again (presumably because the original person assisting didn’t want to have a ding on her record).
Sad thing is this must be effective or they would not keep doing it.
There used to be a service that would charge $5 just to cancel Comcast but I can’t find them anymore.
[+] [-] mtmail|5 years ago|reply
At least in California there seems to be a law preventing this. https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cance...
"The law states that customers who accept an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online must be able to cancel the service online. [...] The law means you won't have to make anymore phone calls to obscure customer service hotlines to cancel services like news subscriptions, music streaming or meal plans, for example."
[+] [-] tgtweak|5 years ago|reply
I escalated to the crtc and opened a case. I got a call back from someone who was very good at apologising for this policy but was at the same time very clear that this was within their legal rights as a service provider.
Super convenient that I can sign up to any service with one click though.
[+] [-] BrandoElFollito|5 years ago|reply
This is a French perspective where such a reaction would be normal. I did it twice, one company called to say I am in the wrong, I asked them to please repeat so that I can record that for the lawsuit.
They hung up and never called back.
[+] [-] c_s_guy|5 years ago|reply
When I eventually gave up and called, the representative tried to convince me not to cancel by describing the various scenarios in which emergencies could happen (including my family getting hurt) and I wouldn't be reachable without the phone plan.
[+] [-] m463|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arthur_sav|5 years ago|reply
If they use invoice based billing then i make sure it's easy to cancel.
Don't support businesses with shady practices.
[+] [-] moolcool|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] glaive123|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrenotgiant|5 years ago|reply
CA passed a law in 2018 requiring companies that allow people to signup online to also allow them to cancel online https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
"In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online"
[+] [-] hkai|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tgtweak|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gkoberger|5 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25514825
[+] [-] spondyl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gk1|5 years ago|reply
I've met Brian. It's so disappointing to see him do this.
[+] [-] elliekelly|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] usiegj00|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] napsterbr|5 years ago|reply
As someone with intense social anxiety, forcing me to call someone is a sure way to trap (extort?) me in your service. I guess a credit card charge back would warrant a call as well.
[+] [-] khalilovcmd|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] usiegj00|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noodlesUK|5 years ago|reply
You are in the wrong, and even if you think you aren’t, the way you’re handling this right now proves the point.
[+] [-] spondyl|5 years ago|reply
Looking at you, New York Times
[+] [-] crooked-v|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve_taylor|5 years ago|reply
https://baremetrics.com/blog/how-we-reduced-churn
[+] [-] pieterbeulque|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 02thoeva|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bamboleo|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rexreed|5 years ago|reply
Xenon Partners, who acquired Baremetrics has a "Playbook". The guy who is shown in the twitter image is Brian Sierakowski (https://www.linkedin.com/in/briansierakowski/) who is in charge of running the "Xenon Playbook" for Baremetrics.
What Xenon does is acquire floundering / stagnating / doing ok SaaS companies from founders who want to sell. They buy the company with a structured acquisition (see above) and then they run their "playbook" to pump revenue and profits. Then they will sell the company for some multiple.
They will arbitrage their payments to the founder to make sure that cash flow works out. So, what you're seeing here is the Xenon playbook in action: accelerate revenues, decrease churn, slow payables, all that. I wonder what else is in their playbook.
Xenon was itself acquired by a firm called DreamFactory which seems to have started the model in 2017 or 2018, and then took on the Xenon brand themselves to operate their SaaS Private Equity / Hedge Fund model.
[1] HN discussion on the acquisition here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25045325
[+] [-] Silhouette|5 years ago|reply
Surely they understand that this is going to do the rounds on social media and tech forums, and that a significant proportion of their entire global market is likely to have heard about the dispute within the next few days? And that looking both incompetent and untrustworthy, as they obviously do here, is going to risk both losing existing customers and deterring potential new ones?
[+] [-] googlryas|5 years ago|reply
Some areas have something along these lines, but not many in the grand scheme of things.
Also maybe something about notifications of pending recurring charges. Those two tactics are pure slime from my perspective.
[+] [-] umvi|5 years ago|reply
They do claim "it's not a sales rep" though, so the only other motivation I can think of is manual feedback collection.
[+] [-] 02thoeva|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|5 years ago|reply
I sent them cancellations, but it only works if you send the cancellation in the last 90 days (or something) of the 24 months. Miss the window and you're on the hook for 24 more payments.
It's the most customer-hostile experience I have ever had with a company in the global west.
I decided it was easier to just let them try to collect, and stopped the autodebit to them.
Some say you can still hear their dunning emails to this day, when the wind is blowing...
[+] [-] minimaxir|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] khalilovcmd|5 years ago|reply
"Got it! Let me know how I can help with the dispute process."
I didn't post that update on Twitter I think.
[+] [-] colechristensen|5 years ago|reply
I also suggested elsewhere a complaint to the CA AG.
A CEO fielding a call from their payment processor or AGs office has a humbling effect.
[+] [-] gk1|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nojvek|5 years ago|reply
I have come to accept the fact that US corps run via a “grow at any cost” algorithm/herd mentalofu. They will bend and twist every law to their favor even if it’s a terrible user experience.
[+] [-] Tomminn|5 years ago|reply
I was disgusted that you couldn't delete your account without making a phone call.
[+] [-] spondyl|5 years ago|reply
They link to a Zendesk instance but the actual form doesn't seem to render at all hence no ticket can be submitted.
Presumably this is caused by one of the various ad/tracker blocking items I have running but the fact you can't submit a ticket via what should otherwise be a plain HTML form is kinda nuts
[+] [-] jwmoz|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] omarhaneef|5 years ago|reply
Comcast Verizon AT&T
And I think it becomes more common if there isn’t a mechanism to push back. All kinds of dark patterns (you have to remember a code you supposedly set with AT&T when you first signed up that — get this — is never used for any other service). Verizon just paused my billing and then started again (presumably because the original person assisting didn’t want to have a ding on her record).
Sad thing is this must be effective or they would not keep doing it.
There used to be a service that would charge $5 just to cancel Comcast but I can’t find them anymore.