So on one hand you get to do some cool stuff for one of the most successful companies in the world.
On the other hand you cannot talk about anything you do at all, as if the time spent there does not exist.
Personally I'd rather spend my time at a company that allows for some discussion.
Maybe I’m jaded as an attorney, but aren’t most professional jobs relatively confidential? Thinking of things like ad agencies, insurance, finance, law, teaching (what specific students are doing), any tech job with clients... you can’t go talking about trade secrets and advice others are paying you for. That’s business 101.
Edit: outside of the service industry, I’m hard-pressed to think of a job where you can ethically talk about any and everything you do in your job...
I interviewed at Apple and talked with 8 engineers. Some had been working there for 6 years and none of them could tell me anything that they had worked on. They couldn’t even tell me if anything they had worked on had shipped. Sounded like a really interesting place to work, but if you can’t tell anyone about it, does it matter?
> but if you can’t tell anyone about it, does it matter?
Some people need to be publicly associated with work for it to matter to them. Others don’t. It’s just a personal choice. If you work on a lifesaving drug inside a big pharmaceutical company and never get any extra money or accolades for it, you still saved those lives. Your work still definitely matters.
Sounds like you may have interviewed with engineers working on an upcoming product that hadn't been announced.
I worked there and my friends and family knew what product team I was on. I couldn't tell anyone anything specific about the work, but it wasn't a total mystery.
A good friend of mine worked at Apple in a mid-to-senior role for about two years; when he joined he told me not to ask him anything so I didn't.
Shortly after he left we were having a drink, and I say: "Just tell me this, did you like it there?" He thought for a fair bit and eventually said "no comment".
Would be interesting how Apple installs such an ethos of secretivity - is it loyalty, respect or fear. Maybe a combination of all, and the fear may well be down to the aspect that if you are happy to dish secrets upon a past company then why should this company trust you with our secrets.
How do people get the next job after Apple? Let's say someone has worked there for a good couple of years - are they not allowed to share anything about that period in the job interviews or on Linkedin?
This question is about understanding invention in large companies, not as a knock against Bret Victor:
His job title had "inventor" in it, and he mentions making many things, but he describes the impact of his inventions in the passive voice:
"These concept apps were shown around internally, presumably to inspire the people who did the real work."
I gather from this that he didn't see his role as advocacy or promotion of his work, and from "presumably" that he didn't really know what the purpose was of all this showing-round. My question: would he have been able to get into production some of the things he made and cared about, had he engaged in advocacy, or would that have been problematic in Apple's culture?
It’s funny, a friend of mine who’s been jumping around tech companies and recently joined a (non-Apple) FAANG had told me that I was taking the Apple secrecy way too seriously.
It’s kind of a unspoken rule at Apple that you just don’t talk about what you worked on while you’re there, and I just normalized that kind of behavior at future ventures for better or for worse. Every former employee I’ve spoken to agreed. HR had (and I’m sure they still do) meetings almost annually showing that leaking has serious implications, from factory checkpoints (even though we’re in SWE) to prevent parts from being leaked to post-mortems on how various HW and SW leaks that end up on MacRumors.
This is a common outsider view, and one that BigTechCorp's actively encourage. Outsiders don't see the long hours, stressful deadlines, office politics, they just see the colorful beanbag couches and free catered meals.
For the decently paid people, that may still be true. I'm not so sure for the common retail folks, or the freelancers that Apple used to hire to categorize and correct Siri recordings.
You're going to Disneyland all right, because you're going to be a mascot. Here, put on this Mickey costume and head. If you need to puke (and you will), there's a scupper inside the head. Now get out there and greet the kiddies for eight hours.
What if confidentiality agreements had a maximum duration? The author worked at Apple a decade ago. Perhaps their NDA agreements should expire about now.
Yes, it can be abused, but it’s kinda like copyright. It’s just like parents having a limited term: it (in theory) catches everyone up to best of X years ago.
I have a memory of Bret Victor tweeting something about how TouchBar was something he worked on. TouchBar was released more than 5 years later after he left.
I think visions can play out far beyond ten years, and their disclosure could potentially further cement existing power structures, such as Apple.
Of course, relying upon NDAs in lieu of real trust is trash anyways. Ideally, an [extremely well treated and compensated] team could maintain strict confidence based on ideology alone. Your mission just has to actually change the world for the better in some dramatic way.
To play devil's advocate, myself and quite a few other people probably have a keen interest in precisely what the nature and vision of Apple's long-term research was, even a decade ago. People like Bret think far beyond time scales that measure a single decade.
I'm not sure how this relates to Apple specifically, apart from their reputation for secrecy. What large tech company allows its employees to disclose details of cancelled projects?
Bret thinks the work he did at Apple are his: "my creations".
I definitely have a problem with companies claiming the right to your brain 24/7 outside of office, in the proverbial shower, dreaming up an idea entirely unrelated to one's employment. But the very nature of the transaction to work on UI ideas for Apple is that Apple would "own" those ideas.
Also, my Firefox browser twice popped up warning about a slow page when I enabled JS for that page, and I finally gave up. And all this, simply to see a basic text with an empty box. So, this will be an unpopular thought, but it is possible that his prototypes were in fact carefully considered and considered non-optimal, for a variety of practical reasons.
I worked at Apple in the late 90s, they wouldn't even tell me what I'd be doing during the extensive interview process. There was so much secrecy. After all the paperwork was signed, I met with the team (on a Saturday) and found out what it was and that I'd be working 7 days a week, 14 to 16 hours a day for the foreseeable future. I wasn't disappointed, but it was a really strange way to start a job.
I've noticed that we never see people who work at Apple here in the comments section of HN and I wonder what the reason could be. Perhaps Apple forbids employees to post here? Perhaps they have even blocked the domain? Or perhaps Apple employees have no interest in HN because they simply have no entrepreneurial aspirations?
I’ve just moved out of an R&D group, and yes, there’s things I won’t talk about because Apple pay me very well to keep their “surprise and delight”, well, just that
There’s no culture of fear though, like some are saying, it’s just that there are projects I’ve spent years bringing up from bare bones, then there’s the time it takes to turn that into a product that Apple will sell. I’m willing to wait for that to happen, good news can always wait.
Now I work in icloud. I’m the DRI for privacy in my group, which is something that Apple take very seriously, it’s a fun job although there’s a lot of “it’d be really cool to do that, we could offer X, but we need a good way to keep the users data private under circumstance Y, so we can’t”. There’s going to be some interesting work along those lines in the future.
In the past I’ve worked in software (Aperture, Final Cut), and on technologies (precursor to Spotlight, and then the mechanisms behind Spotlight itself).
None of the above is anything that Apple would have any problem with me talking about, though they’d obviously not want me to disclose anything in the future that I might be working on. I’ve also worked for the Ministry of Defence, and frankly no company I’ve ever worked for has the security of a government agency like that. To compare the two situation borders on the absurd.
I like the various jobs I’ve had at Apple, it’s the longest I’ve ever stayed at any company, even ones I owned! I’m in the fortunate position of being able to choose where I work, and I choose Apple. That’s the strongest statement I can make.
Employees are encouraged to "go dark" on social media. There's significant internal training on secrecy. Public association with the company is strongly discouraged. I'm using soft words.
I don’t work for Apple, I work for another big Corp. We have very very strict social media policy. Couple people get fired each year for posting sensitive information on their LinkedIn. I guess, Apple has even stricter policy regarding their (even personal) opinions.
Many companies have policies which prohibit this. It's not even specific to SV or the USA.
I'd see it as protection of both parties. The company doesn't want any reputational damage or off-message communications. The employee doesn't want to fall afoul of any liabilities they might place upon themselves or the company by revealing or promising anything they shouldn't. So personal social media activity is not prohibited, but social media activity in the context of your employment by the company is.
I suspect Apple might be far harsher than most companies if people step over the line, based upon previous examples.
Actually, I'd go even further: you don't really see comments from _any_ bigco employees except a few SV-based ones, Google might be the most well-represented here. Maybe that's because Google has/used to have a culture internally that promoted activism and openness of opinion,
Several people who work on WebKit at Apple are regulars in HN comments, fwiw. You may just not have noticed because they may not advertise that they work at Apple.
This is the same as working anywhere. It's best to maintain a strict work/private split. All company files, screenshots of company work, and the like go back to the company when I leave. If I want to re-create, from scratch, some of that work (and put enough of a spin on it to not run afoul of any patents or copyrights the company holds), and show it off, that's acceptable of course.
I’ve often wondered how Apple manages to keep secrets across such a big organization. It’s fascinating and as an outsider I wonder if it’s because of a (cult like?) culture or because of fear (of legal consequences). It’s a real problem for those who want to showcase their portfolio and experience though, and that seems unfair.
I've also heard they are very strict on what employees can and can't do in their free time. Most of the stuff is not allowed even though it's completely separate from day job from what I've heard, which keeps me away from applying at Apple.
[+] [-] sharken|5 years ago|reply
Personally I'd rather spend my time at a company that allows for some discussion.
[+] [-] Fezzik|5 years ago|reply
Edit: outside of the service industry, I’m hard-pressed to think of a job where you can ethically talk about any and everything you do in your job...
[+] [-] egsmi|5 years ago|reply
... to people outside of Apple. Apple has 137,000 employees in 25 countries. I’m sure you’ll find someone to discuss your work with.
[+] [-] cbsks|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] endtime|5 years ago|reply
...yes? I like working on interesting stuff so that my days aren't boring.
[+] [-] spoonjim|5 years ago|reply
Some people need to be publicly associated with work for it to matter to them. Others don’t. It’s just a personal choice. If you work on a lifesaving drug inside a big pharmaceutical company and never get any extra money or accolades for it, you still saved those lives. Your work still definitely matters.
[+] [-] coin|5 years ago|reply
This is also the case for folks that work on classified projects such at the NSA. There’s more to working than bragging about it to others.
[+] [-] chrisseaton|5 years ago|reply
https://webkit.org/blog/5852/introducing-the-b3-jit-compiler...
[+] [-] alsetmusic|5 years ago|reply
I worked there and my friends and family knew what product team I was on. I couldn't tell anyone anything specific about the work, but it wasn't a total mystery.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kyawzazaw|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] andreilys|5 years ago|reply
You can rest assured that their work mattered, even if they couldn’t talk about it.
[+] [-] fenomas|5 years ago|reply
Shortly after he left we were having a drink, and I say: "Just tell me this, did you like it there?" He thought for a fair bit and eventually said "no comment".
[+] [-] Zenst|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Apocryphon|5 years ago|reply
Goodbye Apple, great machine.
Grind and polish, smooth and shine.
I couldn't catch your match with mine.
But I will always say I tried,
and if a hundred fires died, perhaps the embers smolder on,
to be remembered when I'm gone.
http://worrydream.com/Departure/
[+] [-] burntoutfire|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] topynate|5 years ago|reply
His job title had "inventor" in it, and he mentions making many things, but he describes the impact of his inventions in the passive voice:
"These concept apps were shown around internally, presumably to inspire the people who did the real work."
I gather from this that he didn't see his role as advocacy or promotion of his work, and from "presumably" that he didn't really know what the purpose was of all this showing-round. My question: would he have been able to get into production some of the things he made and cared about, had he engaged in advocacy, or would that have been problematic in Apple's culture?
[+] [-] acwan93|5 years ago|reply
It’s funny, a friend of mine who’s been jumping around tech companies and recently joined a (non-Apple) FAANG had told me that I was taking the Apple secrecy way too seriously.
It’s kind of a unspoken rule at Apple that you just don’t talk about what you worked on while you’re there, and I just normalized that kind of behavior at future ventures for better or for worse. Every former employee I’ve spoken to agreed. HR had (and I’m sure they still do) meetings almost annually showing that leaking has serious implications, from factory checkpoints (even though we’re in SWE) to prevent parts from being leaked to post-mortems on how various HW and SW leaks that end up on MacRumors.
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|5 years ago|reply
That was quite some time ago. I’ll bet it no longer applies.
Happy Christmas, to those that celebrate it!
[+] [-] phendrenad2|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bartvk|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bitwize|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kubanczyk|5 years ago|reply
I think I accumulated more time re-reading it than any other (single) web page over the years.
[+] [-] jpxw|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dannyw|5 years ago|reply
Yes, it can be abused, but it’s kinda like copyright. It’s just like parents having a limited term: it (in theory) catches everyone up to best of X years ago.
[+] [-] flixic|5 years ago|reply
Found the tweet: https://twitter.com/worrydream/status/791767756928462848?s=2... (Tweeted on the day TouchBar was announced; 8 years later)
[+] [-] vlovich123|5 years ago|reply
Source: worked at Apple, Google, and Facebook among many others and have signed many many NDAs.
[+] [-] rl3|5 years ago|reply
Of course, relying upon NDAs in lieu of real trust is trash anyways. Ideally, an [extremely well treated and compensated] team could maintain strict confidence based on ideology alone. Your mission just has to actually change the world for the better in some dramatic way.
To play devil's advocate, myself and quite a few other people probably have a keen interest in precisely what the nature and vision of Apple's long-term research was, even a decade ago. People like Bret think far beyond time scales that measure a single decade.
[+] [-] ksec|5 years ago|reply
It was deleted within hours if not minutes.
[+] [-] egsmi|5 years ago|reply
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/37638098-creative-select...
[+] [-] mypalmike|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eternalban|5 years ago|reply
I definitely have a problem with companies claiming the right to your brain 24/7 outside of office, in the proverbial shower, dreaming up an idea entirely unrelated to one's employment. But the very nature of the transaction to work on UI ideas for Apple is that Apple would "own" those ideas.
Also, my Firefox browser twice popped up warning about a slow page when I enabled JS for that page, and I finally gave up. And all this, simply to see a basic text with an empty box. So, this will be an unpopular thought, but it is possible that his prototypes were in fact carefully considered and considered non-optimal, for a variety of practical reasons.
[+] [-] cowsandmilk|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fourthark|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jprupp|5 years ago|reply
It feels like I am leaving some sort of legacy, no matter how small, and that makes my existence a lot more meaningful.
Did you exchange a walking part in a war for a lead role in a cage? –Pink Floyd
[+] [-] tobr|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flixic|5 years ago|reply
Found the tweet: https://twitter.com/worrydream/status/791767756928462848?s=2... (Tweeted on the day TouchBar was announced)
[+] [-] MaintenanceMode|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amelius|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spacedcowboy|5 years ago|reply
I’ve just moved out of an R&D group, and yes, there’s things I won’t talk about because Apple pay me very well to keep their “surprise and delight”, well, just that
There’s no culture of fear though, like some are saying, it’s just that there are projects I’ve spent years bringing up from bare bones, then there’s the time it takes to turn that into a product that Apple will sell. I’m willing to wait for that to happen, good news can always wait.
Now I work in icloud. I’m the DRI for privacy in my group, which is something that Apple take very seriously, it’s a fun job although there’s a lot of “it’d be really cool to do that, we could offer X, but we need a good way to keep the users data private under circumstance Y, so we can’t”. There’s going to be some interesting work along those lines in the future.
In the past I’ve worked in software (Aperture, Final Cut), and on technologies (precursor to Spotlight, and then the mechanisms behind Spotlight itself).
None of the above is anything that Apple would have any problem with me talking about, though they’d obviously not want me to disclose anything in the future that I might be working on. I’ve also worked for the Ministry of Defence, and frankly no company I’ve ever worked for has the security of a government agency like that. To compare the two situation borders on the absurd.
I like the various jobs I’ve had at Apple, it’s the longest I’ve ever stayed at any company, even ones I owned! I’m in the fortunate position of being able to choose where I work, and I choose Apple. That’s the strongest statement I can make.
[+] [-] daniel_reetz|5 years ago|reply
I left after two years.
[+] [-] lnsru|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rleigh|5 years ago|reply
I'd see it as protection of both parties. The company doesn't want any reputational damage or off-message communications. The employee doesn't want to fall afoul of any liabilities they might place upon themselves or the company by revealing or promising anything they shouldn't. So personal social media activity is not prohibited, but social media activity in the context of your employment by the company is.
I suspect Apple might be far harsher than most companies if people step over the line, based upon previous examples.
[+] [-] sz4kerto|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bzbarsky|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] phendrenad2|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawaysea|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] suyash|5 years ago|reply