China's attempts to censor the rest of the world have become a big deal.[1] Hollywood caved in some time back. The NBA caved. Now Apple.
There was an attempt in 2012 to pass the "Global Online Freedom Act of 2012", prohibiting US companies from assisting foreign censorship operations. Didn't pass.
Apple's history of censorship is strange and amusing. They have, at various times, caved in to both China and Russia. Sending the word "Taiwan" from an iPhone with a Chinese country code at one time crashed iPHones. [2]
There’s a lot going on in that complaint. This US based employee approved the app in the Chinese App Store, and it was not the first screw up they had made.
I’m sympathic to a lousy job experience at any employer. While it sounds more like a DEI issue at heart, and possibly a training or hiring failure, I’m doubtful that the courts would not side with Apple here.
the plaintiff’s core allegation is that the other “screw ups” were concocted (or at least exaggerated in severity) as a retaliation for approving the app and/or discussing the situation with peers.
I haven't looked into the other screw ups, but I basically agree with everything in the snippet of the complaint that appears in the article, except one thing:
"it should remain on the App Store as a matter of free speech"
Free speech is a matter for the government, not for private business decisions... If you as an employee are pushing back against your employer because of "free speech", you're going to have a bad time (i.e. risk losing the job, as it happened).
That said, I'm curious about this Guo Media, and the first thing I found when looking that up is:
It's Apple's fault that they've built a system that is so perfectly suited for state-mandated censorship.
They had to have known this would have happened. The lack of sideloading on iOS doesn't just protect users from malware: it protects repressive governments from criticism and protects corrupt organizations with political power from reporting and attempts at organization or reform.
Furthermore, it's reprehensible for Apple to tout their commitment to human rights, but also appoint themselves the decider that you're not permitted to choose to see nudity in the apps on a device that you purchased. Only assholes decide for other competent adults what they're not allowed to watch, see, or read.
Inserting rent-seekers hellbent on surveillance into every single little purchase we engage in on a daily basis is the worst thing that's happened to our society in a very long time.
Yes this exactly. If Apple insists that they have absolute control over what you can install on hardware that you ostensibly own then they also bear the blame for for kowtowing to every jurisdiction's whims.
The ability to install the software we want on hardware we own should be every user's irrevocable right. Wrap it in three layers of warnings and opt-in dialogs if necessary to protect people but it needs to be possible.
Maybe you trust Apple enough to decide what software can run but are you also comfortable giving this power to whoever is in power in your government at any given time? It's an extremely dangerous precedent.
The app in question seems to be the outlet of Guo Wengui, a fugitive businessman wanted for corruption charges in China. (Whether the charges are valid or not I have zero idea. Incidentally I learned about this guy from the news of Steve Bannon’s arrest on this guy’s yacht.) So stating that this app is merely critical of Chinese government is lacking quite a bit of context.
The submitted URL was https://mjtsai.com/blog/2020/12/31/fired-app-reviewer-sues-a..., which points to several other articles. Of those, Volokh seems to have the most information, so we've changed the link above to that. If there's a better URL, we can change it again.
China is a major problem for 'western' companies. From sports and media companies that are walking on egg shells in case actors or sports stars, or even fans, say things critical of the Chinese government. De-funding or sidelining of movies potentially critical of the Chinese government. Imagine a film like The Manchurian Candidate being made now? It's not gong to happen, not from a major film studio anyway. The problems Apple is having here, and also with Chinese supplier companies possibly using transported Uighur labourers working under some form of coercion, can affect pretty much any foreign company operating in China.
In this case the App in question was pulled from the App Store in China. On the one hand I can understand it's the Chinese market so Chinese Government rules apply. Clearly this would not be acceptable if the App was pulled internationally. On the other hand, if the US government tried to get an App pulled when it's not clear the App violated any US law or App Store rules, Apple would fight it to the courts. That's a tricky course to take with China, but it's obviously the right thing to do.
If Chinese law says the App has to be pulled and a Chinese court says so then fine, I've no problem with Apple complying with that, the alternative would be to expect them to criminalise Apple employees in China. That's clearly not a reasonable expectation on any company. But at least it would force the Chinese authorities to account for their actions and make it clear what they are doing and why.
The problem is it's not really possible for individual companies to fight the Chinese government. Even for a company like Apple, the asymmetry in the power of the CCP relative to Apple is overwhelming. The CCP could crush Apple, and they know it. They hold enough economic power now that they could quite feasibly drive a major film studio to the wall, or slice off the whole profit margin of many US media or sports organisations.
It's time for western governments to work together on this. Congressional hearings in the US, debates at the G7 and G20. The WTO is pretty crippled at the moment and that needs to change. Whatever side of the US political fence you are and think about US imports, surely you all want to support US exports and the rights of US companies abroad right? I'm a Brit and ok we're out of the EU now, but on things like this we're all in the same boat and need to work together. We need to all support Australia in their current spat with the CCP.
We are desperately in need of a broad and international political debate about these issues. It affects all of us.
In a certain way it is quite funny that a "communist" society is actually using western capitalist's money to undermine everything about their society.
I keep thinking about what you said, because I think I have accepted that out of the two, I would rather live under US regime the CCP's. More importantly, it is now clear that China follows US steps in ensuring a level of cultural hegemony enjoyed by US for some time. Although, they seem to apply it more deliberately. I am not convinced that is good for a world in general. That path they chose is the path Russian communists would have loved to have taken if they had the tools China now has ( and yes, we provided those tools ).
US, despite certain misgivings, seems to have been a net good for the world ( not completely unlike Roman empire ). I am not certain China is, but have yet to see how it all plays out. Now, there are circles in US, that absolutely love China and the power the government wields there ( something along the lines of 'if only we could have US and China-like control, we would be all set' mindset ).
In short, I agree with you, we, as a species, should have a really hard discussion over what comes next. In a lot of ways, this is a turning point. I am not sure, we are ready to have that discussion.
Seems like a stretch to claim that approving an app on behalf of an employer is protected political activity, but is this really so different from the pharmacist who refuses to fill a birth control prescription on religious grounds?
We currently have issues with approving our apps with app store as they demand using apple login. We have added it but they still do not approve changes. that is so annoying as it blocks some other things in our company...
I like apple devices, I always hated to develop for them. The burden of review on app store is just too much. I would rather prefer to do a web app and to be free, to make quick releases instead of chatting with apple reviewers for weeks when you need to publish some critical release. I don't need apple customers, neither they payment system. Web is king.
FWIW: As a dev I've made both contact with Apple and with Google reps and it was like day and night. Apple actually offers support and tries to resolve my problems while Google feels like getting some bureaucracy done at a public office or worse. (Speaking of European bureaucracy, YMMV.)
My experience has been nothing like that. The developer portal is definitely a bit buggy but all my apps have been reviewed and approved very timely. Critical updates go through very quickly.
However I appreciate it’s a big process and given the amount of complaints online on how bad the process is, I put a lot of extra care to make sure everything goes through very smoothly. I use TestFlight a lot to test a lot and I look at the App Store process as akin to sending my software to a publisher and writing to CDs - I go to full efforts to make sure it is as perfect as possible by the point I’m submitting.
Also might have to do with number of users you have. Now I have quite a few downloads on my main app, so I may be getting a bit better treatment on priority fixes.
Manufacturing is one thing, the purchasing power of Chinese is another thing. China is about 15-20% of Apple's business and they can't afford to lose it. China will happily ban iPhone while letting Apple keep manufacturing.
Ok, so who do you go to that isn't? Even Fairphone is up to their eyeballs in Chinese suppliers and they say in their own literature they can't account for all their upstreams.
Apple are always the ones that get walloped publicly on issues like this, and actually I'm ok with that. It's good these issues get air time at all, if Apple didn't exist and it was all Microsoft, Samsung and such none of this would ever get out and if it did nobody would care. But pretending this is all about Apple, slagging them in a comment and then going and buying the next Chinese made gear from Amazon or whoever is just brushing this under the rug.
You’re welcome to your view. But do keep in mind that one needs to follow the laws of each jurisdiction in which they operate, regardless of your opinion of that “rightness” of the laws.
Your breathless rhetoric is pointless too. When was the last time you actually bought or used an Apple device? You formed this view well before now, and now you’re just posturing.
I think I just realized while Apple doesn't allow side loading apps. Because if you could side load apps, then Chinese citizens could side load apps, and Apple would no longer be favored in China.
This complaint makes me feel like it's as simple as that. Apple just fears China.
HN readers might be surprised at the extent of modded-iOS-app communities (just like APK communities for Androids) that manage to exist within the meager 7-day signing window Apple allows a free-tier developer account. Tools like AltStore and ReProvision are the standard for sideloading and renewing (respectively) legitimate jailbreak-entrypoint apps:
Even for un-jailbroken devices there are entire alternative ecosystems based around sideloading modded/pirated apps. They are obviously full of pirated stuff, usually work by abusing an enterprise cert from an endless list of Chinese companies (not insinuating anything bad, just firsthand experience), and they probably have some nasty malware mixed in here and there as well. Zero endorsement for any of these examples from the first page of a DDG search, but you get the idea:
That's a possible reason, but do you have any evidence that it's the real reason beyond it being vaguely plausible while making Apple look as bad as possible. Preventing side-loading improves iOS device security, which is just as plausible as your theory.
If the judges hadn’t blocked Trump’s attempt at banning TikTok and WeChat (he had made clear intentions that he would go after more Chinese apps/companies as well) then Apple could’ve been in a position where they were forced to block Chinese apps worldwide, which would almost certainly guarantee that China wouldn’t be able to build popular apps that could be used to spread CCP propaganda and censorship, and influence elections.
Apple’s lack of side loading not only protect the users from malware, but it could also serve as the perfect weapon for the US government to make it near impossible for a company/nation to compete in the mobile app sector. That’s likely why 40%-Tencent owned Epic engaged in a desperate PR lawsuit to try to make it possible to side-load apps.
> Information control is no different from border control.
Well, no, it's quite different.
A border can be controlled, information cannot. East Germany could stop people crossing the border to West Germany (at least, those who weren't willing to take the risk of being shot at). They couldn't stop West German radio stations being broadcast back across the border.
Information control isn't anything like border control, because information is permeable to your physical border. You can shoot-to-kill people crossing your borders, but good luck doing that with electromagnetic radiation.
At best you can jam it or attempt to control the flow domestically (by, for example, banning radios), but in both cases it's easily circumvented.
Except for a couple of short contracts I am trying to ignore mobile app market. I just can't stand that I need anybody's permission to install / sell my products. Instant critical updates delivery that saved my bacon quite a few times is also out of question on mobile. I am aware about sideloading on Android but how many regular users are willing to follow through on that model.
[+] [-] Animats|5 years ago|reply
There was an attempt in 2012 to pass the "Global Online Freedom Act of 2012", prohibiting US companies from assisting foreign censorship operations. Didn't pass.
Apple's history of censorship is strange and amusing. They have, at various times, caved in to both China and Russia. Sending the word "Taiwan" from an iPhone with a Chinese country code at one time crashed iPHones. [2]
[1] https://fair.org/home/chinese-censorship-of-us-media-new-spi...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Apple
[+] [-] still_grokking|5 years ago|reply
This would only mean that US companies would get banned from most countries shortly thereafter. I don't think US companies would like that.
[+] [-] thefounder|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boopmaster|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drewwwwww|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] berdario|5 years ago|reply
"it should remain on the App Store as a matter of free speech"
Free speech is a matter for the government, not for private business decisions... If you as an employee are pushing back against your employer because of "free speech", you're going to have a bad time (i.e. risk losing the job, as it happened).
That said, I'm curious about this Guo Media, and the first thing I found when looking that up is:
https://huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/steve-bannon-guo-wengui-g...
"Free speech" is often used as a fig leaf for the alt right, so this is unfortunately unsurprising :/
I wish good luck to Trieu Pham, even if personally I wouldn't have picked Guo Media as the hill to die on
[+] [-] sneak|5 years ago|reply
They had to have known this would have happened. The lack of sideloading on iOS doesn't just protect users from malware: it protects repressive governments from criticism and protects corrupt organizations with political power from reporting and attempts at organization or reform.
Furthermore, it's reprehensible for Apple to tout their commitment to human rights, but also appoint themselves the decider that you're not permitted to choose to see nudity in the apps on a device that you purchased. Only assholes decide for other competent adults what they're not allowed to watch, see, or read.
Inserting rent-seekers hellbent on surveillance into every single little purchase we engage in on a daily basis is the worst thing that's happened to our society in a very long time.
[+] [-] cageface|5 years ago|reply
The ability to install the software we want on hardware we own should be every user's irrevocable right. Wrap it in three layers of warnings and opt-in dialogs if necessary to protect people but it needs to be possible.
Maybe you trust Apple enough to decide what software can run but are you also comfortable giving this power to whoever is in power in your government at any given time? It's an extremely dangerous precedent.
[+] [-] oefrha|5 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Wengui
[+] [-] TheChaplain|5 years ago|reply
And 80 app reviews per day? Do they even have time to eat or take a dump?
[+] [-] threeseed|5 years ago|reply
In which case they are simply checking copy, opening the app and clicking around a bit etc i.e. no more than a few minutes.
The longer reviews are reserved for new apps and edge cases.
[+] [-] schappim|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andybak|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toyg|5 years ago|reply
I just don’t understand why the PRC would have a problem with this. /s
[+] [-] dang|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simonh|5 years ago|reply
In this case the App in question was pulled from the App Store in China. On the one hand I can understand it's the Chinese market so Chinese Government rules apply. Clearly this would not be acceptable if the App was pulled internationally. On the other hand, if the US government tried to get an App pulled when it's not clear the App violated any US law or App Store rules, Apple would fight it to the courts. That's a tricky course to take with China, but it's obviously the right thing to do.
If Chinese law says the App has to be pulled and a Chinese court says so then fine, I've no problem with Apple complying with that, the alternative would be to expect them to criminalise Apple employees in China. That's clearly not a reasonable expectation on any company. But at least it would force the Chinese authorities to account for their actions and make it clear what they are doing and why.
The problem is it's not really possible for individual companies to fight the Chinese government. Even for a company like Apple, the asymmetry in the power of the CCP relative to Apple is overwhelming. The CCP could crush Apple, and they know it. They hold enough economic power now that they could quite feasibly drive a major film studio to the wall, or slice off the whole profit margin of many US media or sports organisations.
It's time for western governments to work together on this. Congressional hearings in the US, debates at the G7 and G20. The WTO is pretty crippled at the moment and that needs to change. Whatever side of the US political fence you are and think about US imports, surely you all want to support US exports and the rights of US companies abroad right? I'm a Brit and ok we're out of the EU now, but on things like this we're all in the same boat and need to work together. We need to all support Australia in their current spat with the CCP.
We are desperately in need of a broad and international political debate about these issues. It affects all of us.
[+] [-] felipelemos|5 years ago|reply
We should have a policy of reciprocity with China. This must be discussed urgently.
[+] [-] antihero|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] A4ET8a8uTh0|5 years ago|reply
US, despite certain misgivings, seems to have been a net good for the world ( not completely unlike Roman empire ). I am not certain China is, but have yet to see how it all plays out. Now, there are circles in US, that absolutely love China and the power the government wields there ( something along the lines of 'if only we could have US and China-like control, we would be all set' mindset ).
In short, I agree with you, we, as a species, should have a really hard discussion over what comes next. In a lot of ways, this is a turning point. I am not sure, we are ready to have that discussion.
[+] [-] andi999|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zepto|5 years ago|reply
Also, frankly it’s not actually his decision to make.
If someone doesn’t want to carry out company policy, they can choose to resign or expect to be fired.
This looks like someone with a political agenda who is using this situation to advance it.
[+] [-] lph|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] malinens|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shaolinspirit|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hn3333|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TeeWEE|5 years ago|reply
I like that apple only allows apps of a certain quality. But some guidelines are multi-interpretable.. Causing issues when submitting app updates.
[+] [-] threeseed|5 years ago|reply
So if you want happy customers then a native app is a necessity.
[+] [-] zepto|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pulse7|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abhinav22|5 years ago|reply
However I appreciate it’s a big process and given the amount of complaints online on how bad the process is, I put a lot of extra care to make sure everything goes through very smoothly. I use TestFlight a lot to test a lot and I look at the App Store process as akin to sending my software to a publisher and writing to CDs - I go to full efforts to make sure it is as perfect as possible by the point I’m submitting.
Also might have to do with number of users you have. Now I have quite a few downloads on my main app, so I may be getting a bit better treatment on priority fixes.
[+] [-] crististm|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] xuki|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barnacled|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] MikeUt|5 years ago|reply
Does everyone that is corrupt get censored, or is it selectively applied?
[+] [-] echelon|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] yawaworht1978|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] simonh|5 years ago|reply
Apple are always the ones that get walloped publicly on issues like this, and actually I'm ok with that. It's good these issues get air time at all, if Apple didn't exist and it was all Microsoft, Samsung and such none of this would ever get out and if it did nobody would care. But pretending this is all about Apple, slagging them in a comment and then going and buying the next Chinese made gear from Amazon or whoever is just brushing this under the rug.
[+] [-] dann0|5 years ago|reply
Your breathless rhetoric is pointless too. When was the last time you actually bought or used an Apple device? You formed this view well before now, and now you’re just posturing.
[+] [-] jedberg|5 years ago|reply
This complaint makes me feel like it's as simple as that. Apple just fears China.
[+] [-] Lammy|5 years ago|reply
HN readers might be surprised at the extent of modded-iOS-app communities (just like APK communities for Androids) that manage to exist within the meager 7-day signing window Apple allows a free-tier developer account. Tools like AltStore and ReProvision are the standard for sideloading and renewing (respectively) legitimate jailbreak-entrypoint apps:
https://github.com/rileytestut/AltStore
https://github.com/Matchstic/ReProvision
Even for un-jailbroken devices there are entire alternative ecosystems based around sideloading modded/pirated apps. They are obviously full of pirated stuff, usually work by abusing an enterprise cert from an endless list of Chinese companies (not insinuating anything bad, just firsthand experience), and they probably have some nasty malware mixed in here and there as well. Zero endorsement for any of these examples from the first page of a DDG search, but you get the idea:
https://www.tutuapp.com/pc/
https://iphonecake.com/
https://sideload.tweakboxapp.com/
https://ipaspot.app/
https://www.valuewalk.com/2019/04/spotify-up-tweakbox-users-...
[+] [-] pvg|5 years ago|reply
You think that's the reason, since 2007 (and every year after) when Apple also didn't allow sideloading apps? It seems a little fanciful, at best.
[+] [-] Veen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abc-xyz|5 years ago|reply
Apple’s lack of side loading not only protect the users from malware, but it could also serve as the perfect weapon for the US government to make it near impossible for a company/nation to compete in the mobile app sector. That’s likely why 40%-Tencent owned Epic engaged in a desperate PR lawsuit to try to make it possible to side-load apps.
[+] [-] LeicaLatte|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] objclxt|5 years ago|reply
Well, no, it's quite different.
A border can be controlled, information cannot. East Germany could stop people crossing the border to West Germany (at least, those who weren't willing to take the risk of being shot at). They couldn't stop West German radio stations being broadcast back across the border.
Information control isn't anything like border control, because information is permeable to your physical border. You can shoot-to-kill people crossing your borders, but good luck doing that with electromagnetic radiation.
At best you can jam it or attempt to control the flow domestically (by, for example, banning radios), but in both cases it's easily circumvented.
[+] [-] LeicaLatte|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FpUser|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] altitudinous|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tobr|5 years ago|reply