[typomatic]

I have used Python on OSX for years and it is and always will be a horrorshow. Using the system Python installation is a nonstarter for many reasons, chief among them is that I don't have any interest in using py2. So then you're using pyenv or homebrew, but your vim install still thinks that it should be using the system python. And whoops, you fixed that and now virtualenv is not finding your interpreter. And etc., etc.

OSX and its tooling are just ridiculous. I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment.

As always xkcd has a comic for it: https://xkcd.com/1987/

[coldtea]

>OSX and its tooling are just ridiculous. I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment.

Because:

(a) it's quite easy to set things up with brew, macports, and/or Nix

(b) because Python is shitty everywhere anyway, and Python isn't the be-all end-all of development work.

(c) because you get a full-featured, working, coherent, take-it-or-leave-it desktop that stops one way of endless tinkering and procrastinating available in Linux to get things "just right"

(d) because it's still a UNIX with a full support for unicy tools, not a hack like WSL or WSL2.

(e) because it has good hardware (mostly - BS keyboard-era aside) and good resale value

(f) because you get to enjoy most/all the proprietary tools you like too (from MS Office and Adobe Creative Suite, to whatever)

(g) because in 2020 Docker, remote environments, etc, make many "local dev environment" points moot anyway

[ohazi]

I think it's more inertia than any of these things.

The entire point of this thread is that (a) is false -- see grandparent and the xkcd joke. It's not easy. It pretends to be easy, but is usually broken in some crazy way instead. Apt is also easy, but it actually works more often than not.

(c) was relevant in 2006, when the novelty of OS X was that it was a UNIX that you could actually use as a daily driver. This is what initially got developers to move to Mac. But it's been fifteen years, and all jokes aside, the "year of the Linux desktop" for developers was probably around 2012. Linux may still have issues, but they're not worse than the hoops you have to jump through to make today's macOS behave.

Trendy tech companies are still buying macbook pros for their employees because that's what's been trendy for the last decade, not because they actually ask new hires what they prefer. Practical tech companies do, and at places like that you usually see a mix of macs and thinkpads.

[krona]

b and g are mutually exclusive, though?

[jackson1442]

> I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment.

I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener.

Granted, geospatial Python is somewhat of a mess, but a lot of tools I have to use are somewhat messy forks of Unix tools (looking at you, pyenv-win) with tons of incompatible extensions. For development, Windows is the exception because you can transfer just about anything from Linux to macOS.

On my Mac, I can easily install all of the Python packages I need without needing to install Visual Studio, pipwin, anaconda, etc. I have bash/zsh as my default system shell. Maybe it's easier to native Windows users, but bash/brew is a much better combination than anything I've found in Windows.

WSL is a step in the right direction, but it still feels secondary. If a first-class terminal experience existed on Windows, I have a strong feeling that it could be the premier development environment, or at least closer to Mac.

Maybe I'm using it wrong, but it definitely hasn't been made clear on how to use it right.

[sangnoir]

> I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener.

Maybe check the other other side (Linux) - I found the grass is greener there - at least for Python (and programming tools in general). I'm very comfortable on the command-line, and moving from a pure Linux environment to OS X & brew felt like a huge downgrade, followed by random annoyances that remind you you are using inferior, non-GNU utilities:

  $ ls my_dir -l
  ls: -l: No such directory

Really - Mac OS? I know its minor, but that's just user-hostile and it happens every few weeks; I can't get over it.

[analog31]

>>>> I've been editing a tutorial one of my coworkers wrote that targets new Python users on Windows. From my findings, the grass is not greener.

I've been using WinPython for a few years. It's the closest thing to "just works" that I've found, and non-programming colleagues have been able to install it successfully.

Because it works almost like an isolated "container," it's also possible to test your code on a clean install of WinPython to make sure it will run on someone else's computer before you share it.

I don't know the technical difference between WinPython and a true container, but you can have multiple WinPython installs on one machine, and they don't interfere with one another, or with a pre-existing mainstream Python installation on the same PC. So you can share your stuff without worrying about screwing up someone else's stuff.

[sooheon]

> I have no idea to this day how macs became the premier development environment.

    s/macs/python
    s/development environment/scripting language