I don't know how we got to this state that we don't control our own basic processes and how they behave.
Just off the top of my head right now on osx: can't shut down creative cloud app from the app bar, can't shut down webex, docker desktop regularly hijacks everything I'm doing (once when having a presentation in front of 100 people) to show there's an update, steam client jumping in the tray for hours unless I acknowledge there's an update, apps registering to be started on boot by themselves and having to go through a convoluted process to turn it off (if it even exists)...
I police that shit endlessly. I get I have not-normal expectations -- like, I HATE it when ANYTHING takes focus on its own -- but absolutely DO NOT make it hard for me to quit your app.
I don't use WebEx much, but its "Hey, I know you just tried to quit but don't you want me to hang out just in case" attitude makes me CRAZY.
I'm a little confused by your reference to the "tray" on OSX tho. Where's the tray? We have a dock, and we have a menu bar where some things go, but no tray that I'm aware of.
I no longer use Windows on any of my PCs. I have currently two instances that run as VMs.
One dedicated solely for remote connection to my work. The company insists on software to scan that my PC is "secure", so I give them a finger with an almost virgin Windows install. Their crap can work only on Windows, so I don't actually have any choice.
Another is for any application that I use that I absolutely can't find replacement for on Linux.
I also have separate Linux VMs for suspect software like Zoom that I have to use but I don't trust to run on my machine or try to take over my desktop.
It's one argument in favor of having the OS determine how software is in- and uninstalled, instead of delegating it to an application supplied by the developer.
I mean in theory on Mac you can just remove the .app file.
I would like the 'profile' files for an application to be a bit more obvious though, e.g. stored in /Users/<username>/Application Data/Adobe instead of the deeply nested and hidden-by-default Library folder.
There's a lot wrong with mobile, but one of the things they absolutely do right is giving you the tools to treat your apps like cattle. We need that on the desktop.
> I don't know how we got to this state that we don't control our own basic processes and how they behave.
If the system be designed such that the task of uninstalling lies with the program itself rather than some other program then one never really did.
I understand this design not. I would assume that uninstalling the program means deleting some set of files and perhaps registry keys on Windows, or is there more to it?
It's a race to the bottom. The more idiot-proof electronics become, the more widely they can be adopted. How do you make something idiot-proof? You treat the users like idiots. The more idiot users you have, the smaller the fraction that actually give a damn about anything beyond whether it turns on and browses the internet.
I wish I had this capability on my Android phone. There are utilities like SuperFreezZ to force background apps to close, but the fact that one is necessary is an indicator that the OS itself is not designed for a user to control what is happening in the background.
You said it yourself before you even started the list: OSX
Apple are one of the biggest offenders of "Don't you dare do what you want with your device. We'll tell you what you want to do"
Unfortunately now OSX is going in the same direction of the users not owning their hardware/software as with iOS. And many users get sucked into it because it looks pretty
Luckily I run Windows and experience no such issues. I'm in complete control of my computer. Downloaded a program to disable all spying and get rid of all annoyances with just one click of a button. You can't do that with Apple or Android.
Honestly it sounds like you need to learn how to operate your machine. These are all really solvable problems.
The process to eliminate items from startup is quite straightforward. You can do it in system preferences under your user startup items area - or wipe them from the CLI.
I try to avoid Adobe like the plague these days. It's not always easy, but thankfully it's getting easier.
As nobody has mentioned them yet, I would highly recommend Affinity products as alternatives to Adobe software. Coupled with Sketch, I've been able to avoid Adobe products for 2+ years now.
Affinity have replacements for Photoshop (Photo), InDesign (Publisher) and Illustrator (Designer), currently on sale for not too far off the cost of a single month of Adobe CC. They might not have 100% feature parity, but they're really very good.
The adobe apps acted like malware. Open your TaskManager(Activity Monitor on Mac) to see how much craps run on your computer when you installed Creative Cloud.
as a windows user, killing adobe from autostart can't be done from task manager "start-up apps" tab. I need to go to resource manager sort entries by auto-start and look for all adobe based processes (it's more than one) and then set them to "run manually". and I'm still not sure If I have completely disabled adobe apps from running passively in background.
Definitely noticed that every single time I open Mac Activity Viewer, right at the top there is Adobes anti-piracy tool with 10-30% usage before scuttling off down the list.
Presumably it's taking up CPU checking every single application I run so in opening Activity Viewer it's visible at the top checking it?
I was using photoshop and premiere quite heavily since DOS days, back when it fit on 3 3.5" floppies. I really hated the adobe cloud concept... I just don't like the idea of renting software instead of owning it. Then it kept getting worse as far as resources it was consuming and number of softwares that were required to install. What really ticked me off was having to pay to upgrade photoshop whenever I got a new camera because you could only get the newest "camera raw" with the most current version. So basically you end up buying an entire new version of photoshop just for an updated nikon raw codec (in my case) just to be able to import your images.
I spent a good deal of time and money in 2020 getting myself untangled from Adobe. The only thing of theirs allowed on my system now is a pdf reader and left such a bitter taste in my mouth I will actively never purchase another one of their professional products again. $300 for Black Magic's Resolve Studio is wayyyy worth it, and a better product now that I'm more proficient at it. I know many professionals in the film/video industry who have left them and won't look back. I was a hold out for too long.
The only thing that makes me particularly sad about it now is that I have no way to open my old projects, because you rent adobe - you don't own it. Well I can open things that were created prior to version 6 as I do still own 5.5 Creative Suite and can use it... If I can find a damn dvd reader.
They are pretty much the epitome of "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
They even offer their products with a subscription - and I would consider it! They let you purchase your apps for real, they're not forcing anything, and then I think I should support their efforts.
Additionally their licensing is: buy a license, type in your code, your program works. You can use your personal license on all your machines and they trust you.
Last they allow you to save your data to "the cloud", but don't force it. And "the cloud" means you can conveniently store it on their server, or on your own or someone else's webdav server.
On the other hand - their software is incredibly expensive. Let's take Omnifocus...
It's $99 for Omnifocus Pro on Mac. If you want to see your tasks on your iPhone you have to buy the iPhone version separately at $75 (they have blocked users from running Omnifocus iOS on M1 macbooks).
And even after spending over $170 (for what is effectively a gtd task manager), they still ask you to pay $5 a month to access it on the web.
And you might expect it then, to sync with the $199 you spent on their project management software (Omniplan) - but nope!
Then after you have bought the project management software, you might expect that it can export to a common format so you can share it with users that don't use OmniPlan (i.e. Microsoft Project) - but nope! That's a $199 IAP to upgrade to pro (or buy pro upfront).
And after you have bought that $400 project management suite for your Mac do you think you can view THOSE files on your iPhone without buying something extra? Think again! That will be another $99 for the standard version on iOS or $199 please if you want pro.
I've always associated efficiency of a program by its package size and with this mindset, Adobe Suite would be on the bottom of my list as being the most inefficient set of programs in modern times (proof: https://imgur.com/a/G1nJn7H). I mean come on, 7.53GB for Adobe Acrobat? Then they tell you that your install base is bloated and you can save space by uninstalling/reinstalling it. As of recently, I find myself using Figma more and more becuase I don't want to wait for the counter Adobe program to load. SMH! I hope someone from Adobe is reading.
FYI, WinAmp v2.8 is not #1 but high on the same list for being a butt kicker for its package size!
They've really upped their malware game recently. Even if unintentional, this sort of dark pattern shows incompetence, otherwise it's malfeasance. Happily the response as a consumer is the same.
A while back I needed to do a project on an adobe product, I signed up and installed. After completing the project I uninstalled the software, some how I miss read that what I signed up for was an annual subscription of $11 per month. And when I stopped my subscription they charged me for the full year’s remaining fees.
I was shocked, it left a very bitter taste of bad practice on their part in my opinion. I have since switched to only work with Affinity products, and I cannot be more happy with the quality of the Affinity suite of products.
As a developer who has to deal with odd here and there graphic problems, Affinity products with a great once-off price model makes so much more sense.
This is my experience. We had a freelancer for a few months who needed Photoshop, didn't realise we were signing up for a year.
They advertise it as a monthly subscription, but it's actually a monthly payment plan for a yearly subscription.
When I told them this was unacceptable, not what was advertised, and demanded a refund, they tried to bribe me by saying if I stopped pursuing a refund for the company they would give me a free year on my personal Adobe account. Explaining to them that I have no need for Adobe products myself, and that this bribery was really dodgy and making me think even less of of Adobe, was a tough process. They couldn't understand.
Luckily when I needed to install Acrobat Pro for a month I suspected Adobe was running such a scam so I used a Privacy credit card. After I finished with their product I paused the card and sent customer support an email asking to cancel (since the online cancel form wasn’t working for some reason.) I watched as Adobe attempted to charge my card several times over the next few days. Luckily Privacy declined all those charges since the card was paused.
The only other company I’ve had such an experience with has been Stamps.com.
I agree that Adobe is crooked for not allowing people to uninstall their software...
But, why would you give a new employee a computer without imaging it first? I'd much rather spend the time imaging a new computer then try and clean off all the junk the old employee left.
I highly recommend Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher - they have 90 days trial and you can buy them 50% off[1] - one time payment, you can install it on more than one computer.
They really offer an incredible line of powerful products. Been a happy Affinity customer for the past +2 years and really have no complaints, although I'm probably a light user.
Also, you also cannot install old Adobe apps anymore. I have a full version of Illustrator CS2 that I paid about 500€ for, but cannot install it because it needs to be activated and Adobe shut their licensing servers down.
This was actually quite an issue when my father-in-law died and his wife wanted to continue to use the computer. It was only because I have an Adobe ID of my own that I was able to resolve it by temporarily licensing it under my subscription....
The OS shoulders some of this blame. Apps like Adobe’s should not be able to exist using ransomware patterns. If I want the app to uninstall, nuke it Windows.
It's lost some of what it used to be, but I do still like Apple's UX of apps being one "thing" that you can drag to your trash.
Obviously there's preferences and caches and stuff, but generally even if there are background processes etc those are still in that app package and reclaiming most resources is still this simple.
The Windows uninstall process seems archaic whenever I go back to it.
Maybe I’m just getting old but I can’t believe how inefficient everything I used to love when I was younger has become recently. Adobe used to be the gold standard of quality software. I feel like eventually (i.e. the switch to creative cloud) they must have realized they didn’t want to focus on improving their products anymore and just switched to milking their customers. I’m afraid they are on the downslope now.
Adobe has this weird attitude to assume they own computers of users. Blocking possibility of unistalling is just one example. Another is that it downloads new version of apps theought CC and does not remove old one. It also gets a lots of memory and storage for no particular reason.
But it is not only CC. I am asked once per some weeks if I want to remove Flash. I didn't ask about showing these spammy popups. But Adobe knows better. The pop-up has two options: uninstall or remind later...
And if I don't want to uninstall Flash? It seems it is not my decision what software is installed on my computer according to Adobe.
>Another is that it downloads new version of apps theought CC and does not remove old one
Oh this is actually just because they know full well their software can't be trusted to be backwards compatible with plugins and ecosystem of older versions. Even though they switched to subscription payment their feature releases are still basically the same as yearly boxed releases with the same lack of considerations for backwards compatibility that entails.
I think I would like to use Photoshop. But Creative Cloud stops me, once upon a time I was needed to delete Adobe apps from PC and it was a nightmare. Nowadays you can't install Adobe apps without Creative Cloud.
This is an OS (Windows) problem. It allows the software to behave that way. Windows Store version of the software will fix those problems - single uninstall button in the store and you are done.
[+] [-] mstipetic|5 years ago|reply
Just off the top of my head right now on osx: can't shut down creative cloud app from the app bar, can't shut down webex, docker desktop regularly hijacks everything I'm doing (once when having a presentation in front of 100 people) to show there's an update, steam client jumping in the tray for hours unless I acknowledge there's an update, apps registering to be started on boot by themselves and having to go through a convoluted process to turn it off (if it even exists)...
[+] [-] ubermonkey|5 years ago|reply
I don't use WebEx much, but its "Hey, I know you just tried to quit but don't you want me to hang out just in case" attitude makes me CRAZY.
I'm a little confused by your reference to the "tray" on OSX tho. Where's the tray? We have a dock, and we have a menu bar where some things go, but no tray that I'm aware of.
[+] [-] lmilcin|5 years ago|reply
One dedicated solely for remote connection to my work. The company insists on software to scan that my PC is "secure", so I give them a finger with an almost virgin Windows install. Their crap can work only on Windows, so I don't actually have any choice.
Another is for any application that I use that I absolutely can't find replacement for on Linux.
I also have separate Linux VMs for suspect software like Zoom that I have to use but I don't trust to run on my machine or try to take over my desktop.
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|5 years ago|reply
I mean in theory on Mac you can just remove the .app file.
I would like the 'profile' files for an application to be a bit more obvious though, e.g. stored in /Users/<username>/Application Data/Adobe instead of the deeply nested and hidden-by-default Library folder.
[+] [-] jjoonathan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Blikkentrekker|5 years ago|reply
If the system be designed such that the task of uninstalling lies with the program itself rather than some other program then one never really did.
I understand this design not. I would assume that uninstalling the program means deleting some set of files and perhaps registry keys on Windows, or is there more to it?
[+] [-] Causality1|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 3np|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1MachineElf|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrweasel|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keyle|5 years ago|reply
Isn't that being professional?
[+] [-] Pxtl|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChrisRR|5 years ago|reply
Apple are one of the biggest offenders of "Don't you dare do what you want with your device. We'll tell you what you want to do"
Unfortunately now OSX is going in the same direction of the users not owning their hardware/software as with iOS. And many users get sucked into it because it looks pretty
[+] [-] EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whalesalad|5 years ago|reply
The process to eliminate items from startup is quite straightforward. You can do it in system preferences under your user startup items area - or wipe them from the CLI.
[+] [-] string|5 years ago|reply
As nobody has mentioned them yet, I would highly recommend Affinity products as alternatives to Adobe software. Coupled with Sketch, I've been able to avoid Adobe products for 2+ years now.
Affinity have replacements for Photoshop (Photo), InDesign (Publisher) and Illustrator (Designer), currently on sale for not too far off the cost of a single month of Adobe CC. They might not have 100% feature parity, but they're really very good.
[+] [-] knlam|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agys|5 years ago|reply
https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-cloud/kb/cc-cleaner-tool-in...
[+] [-] jerrygoyal|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whywhywhywhy|5 years ago|reply
Presumably it's taking up CPU checking every single application I run so in opening Activity Viewer it's visible at the top checking it?
[+] [-] cronix|5 years ago|reply
I spent a good deal of time and money in 2020 getting myself untangled from Adobe. The only thing of theirs allowed on my system now is a pdf reader and left such a bitter taste in my mouth I will actively never purchase another one of their professional products again. $300 for Black Magic's Resolve Studio is wayyyy worth it, and a better product now that I'm more proficient at it. I know many professionals in the film/video industry who have left them and won't look back. I was a hold out for too long.
The only thing that makes me particularly sad about it now is that I have no way to open my old projects, because you rent adobe - you don't own it. Well I can open things that were created prior to version 6 as I do still own 5.5 Creative Suite and can use it... If I can find a damn dvd reader.
[+] [-] curtis3389|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m463|5 years ago|reply
The Omni Group.
They are pretty much the epitome of "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
They even offer their products with a subscription - and I would consider it! They let you purchase your apps for real, they're not forcing anything, and then I think I should support their efforts.
Additionally their licensing is: buy a license, type in your code, your program works. You can use your personal license on all your machines and they trust you.
Last they allow you to save your data to "the cloud", but don't force it. And "the cloud" means you can conveniently store it on their server, or on your own or someone else's webdav server.
More people should follow their good example.
(and remember, with trust, commerce is unlimited)
[+] [-] Closi|5 years ago|reply
It's $99 for Omnifocus Pro on Mac. If you want to see your tasks on your iPhone you have to buy the iPhone version separately at $75 (they have blocked users from running Omnifocus iOS on M1 macbooks).
And even after spending over $170 (for what is effectively a gtd task manager), they still ask you to pay $5 a month to access it on the web.
And you might expect it then, to sync with the $199 you spent on their project management software (Omniplan) - but nope!
Then after you have bought the project management software, you might expect that it can export to a common format so you can share it with users that don't use OmniPlan (i.e. Microsoft Project) - but nope! That's a $199 IAP to upgrade to pro (or buy pro upfront).
And after you have bought that $400 project management suite for your Mac do you think you can view THOSE files on your iPhone without buying something extra? Think again! That will be another $99 for the standard version on iOS or $199 please if you want pro.
[+] [-] JBorrow|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erikbye|5 years ago|reply
Also, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22745001
[+] [-] Hallucinaut|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pupdogg|5 years ago|reply
FYI, WinAmp v2.8 is not #1 but high on the same list for being a butt kicker for its package size!
[+] [-] anothernewdude|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mstipetic|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gervwyk|5 years ago|reply
I was shocked, it left a very bitter taste of bad practice on their part in my opinion. I have since switched to only work with Affinity products, and I cannot be more happy with the quality of the Affinity suite of products.
As a developer who has to deal with odd here and there graphic problems, Affinity products with a great once-off price model makes so much more sense.
[+] [-] danpalmer|5 years ago|reply
They advertise it as a monthly subscription, but it's actually a monthly payment plan for a yearly subscription.
When I told them this was unacceptable, not what was advertised, and demanded a refund, they tried to bribe me by saying if I stopped pursuing a refund for the company they would give me a free year on my personal Adobe account. Explaining to them that I have no need for Adobe products myself, and that this bribery was really dodgy and making me think even less of of Adobe, was a tough process. They couldn't understand.
[+] [-] alangibson|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hahajk|5 years ago|reply
The only other company I’ve had such an experience with has been Stamps.com.
[+] [-] jacquesm|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eyeswideopen|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tjbenator|5 years ago|reply
But, why would you give a new employee a computer without imaging it first? I'd much rather spend the time imaging a new computer then try and clean off all the junk the old employee left.
[+] [-] rayrag|5 years ago|reply
1 - https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/supporting-the-creative-com...
[+] [-] gervwyk|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattlutze|5 years ago|reply
I emotionally recoil from businesses whose only remaining competition moat is "we make it hard to get rid of our stuff"
[+] [-] jansan|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] parkersweb|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aejnsn|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danpalmer|5 years ago|reply
Obviously there's preferences and caches and stuff, but generally even if there are background processes etc those are still in that app package and reclaiming most resources is still this simple.
The Windows uninstall process seems archaic whenever I go back to it.
[+] [-] beowulfey|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] augustk|5 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1AKIl_2GM
[+] [-] tomaszs|5 years ago|reply
But it is not only CC. I am asked once per some weeks if I want to remove Flash. I didn't ask about showing these spammy popups. But Adobe knows better. The pop-up has two options: uninstall or remind later...
And if I don't want to uninstall Flash? It seems it is not my decision what software is installed on my computer according to Adobe.
[+] [-] whywhywhywhy|5 years ago|reply
Oh this is actually just because they know full well their software can't be trusted to be backwards compatible with plugins and ecosystem of older versions. Even though they switched to subscription payment their feature releases are still basically the same as yearly boxed releases with the same lack of considerations for backwards compatibility that entails.
[+] [-] skyfantom|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EastSmith|5 years ago|reply