"Germans really don't do small talk, those little phrases so familiar to the British about the weather or a person's general well-being, but which she describes as "empty verbiage"."
Being German, I find it fascinating that so many people on both sides of the Channel are so fascinated with the differences between the Brits and the Germans. Coming from a German perspective, I don't think there is any other country whose manners the German media is so obsessed with. Similar feelings seem to exist in Britain with big Sun front pages about German misbehavings once in a while covering all aspects of life (see "two world wars, one world cup" for example).
I also like how they used the lack of a German word for smalltalk in the article. Whenever I explain differences between German behavior and Anglo-American behavior to Americans/Brits I tell them the German language has no words for smalltalk, jaywalking, and date rape to set the tone for my explanation. :)
Hypothesis: German and British cultures are so similar as to create an 'uncanny valley' situation. British and Italian or Spanish habits are so obviously different that individual differences are quite unremarkable. British and German habits are so similar that any differences are unsettling. Faux pas are much more painful when the situation feels very familiar.
Am a Dutch student currently studying in the UK, and many of these differences are true indeed, and possibly even larger between Dutch and English people than between Germans and the English.
'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial.
Another one is 'how are you doing', which in Dutch is used to express concern/interest between close friends, or towards a stranger looking extremely distressed. While the English use it almost instead of the neutral 'Hi' between people who met once before. At first it made me wonder whether I looked alright (yes I shaved and showered, and all :).
So yes, they take getting used to, and a common mistake for Dutch/German people probably is (it was for me) thinking that they are meant as strongly as one is used to. But it does not take long to get used to.
Call it a cultural bias, but I slightly prefer the Dutch/German way, as it takes up less time, makes it more straightforward to find out what people think (fewer understatements as well), and does not deflate the meaning of the terms used as much...
(strangely enough the English don't use different terms or pronunciations when there is more to thank for, than the usual, making it hard to judge the extent of gratefulness / problems, etc)...
Anyway, at home they think I am very polite now, thanks :)
'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial.
As something like a native English speaker I was surprised how often people in Dutch say please and thank you in the Netherlands! (Flanders is of course a different cultural ball-game with politeness rules that remind me of German or French)
The informal would-you-mind-please word is "alsjeblieft" and it is normally used in any interaction with a child or someone in a shop, or even friends of whom you're asking a favour.
And while the informal thank words "dank je wel", "bedankt", "dank je" and "dank" are slightly less used than in much of the English-speaking world, they're still used for lots of stuff that is rather more trivial than saving someone's life. And seem always to be used after asking someone to do something like move their bag off a seat in a packed train... ;-)
And the Dutch certainly say informal hello's - with a slightly smaller bewildering array of sound-words than their goodbyes - with a lot more polite abandon than you'd find in urban English-speaking societies.
I suspect there's a kind of politeness-blindness working here: cultural norms and paradigms are fairly invisible once you're embedded into a society. Once you move, like wybo, the differences snap into focus.
Another Dutchie in the UK here. Your experiences sound very familiar. People passing me in my office would mumble a quick "heyyoualrighthowyoudoing", and I would stand still and say something like "yeah I'm good! How are you doing today?" They'd be terrified.
I think the Germanic approach is particularly helpful for Asperger people, which are obviously prevalent in the IT industry. The social protocol is easier to parse.
Interestingly, attitudes differ even among German-speaking countries: Austrians often criticize the German "yes means yes, no means no" attitude. I've read an article which attributed this to Austrians' centuries of experience with their Balkan neighbours, which has increased their acceptance of slack and thus has made them much more relaxed than the Germans. Not sure in how far this is true ;-)
'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial.
The Vietnamese have a similar attitude. The "Thank You" on your electric bill? The Vietnamese attitude is WTF?
Most Dutch people I've met in the US seemed rather cynical. They were all quite likable and I enjoyed spending time with them but the way you interpret "how are you doing" makes me wonder if I was just wrongly interpreting them. It always made me wonder if they were unhappy people.
> "In a lift or a doctor's waiting room, talk about the weather in German? I don't think so," she says.
What a ridiculous article. Of course Germans have inane conversations about the weather and other trivialities. You know what the German word for "small talk" is? It's "small talk".
I used to think smalltalk was annoying and useless. I was most of the way out of that attitude by the time I lived in Germany, and was thoroughly rid of it by the time I left.
Growing a new social circle in Germany is a complete bitch in large part because people really are less superficial and more direct. The "etiquette of simulation" makes everything so much easier. I'm not saying it's all that easy to get to know people in my home country, Ireland, but there is at least a place where talking to total strangers will not get you funny looks, the pub.
"For their part, the British have what House calls the "etiquette of simulation". The British feign an interest in someone..."
Or sometimes you're making small talk with someone because you actually are interested in them, and just want to keep the first minute or two of the conversation light for whatever reason. Maybe you haven't seen them in a while and do want to catch up on really general things, or the weather really has been odd lately, or you can't think of anything to say right away and having some stock questions gives you a chance to get your bearings.
Just because it's a bit formulaic and routine doesn't mean all small talk is insincere.
There's also the aspect of accents. Which is less applicable in America (IMHO). More small-talk = more exact understanding of where someone is coming from (in all senses).
And that's why I prefer NYC : I prefer people to listen to what I have to say, rather than rate me based on my cultural baggage...
« The German language doesn't even have an expression for "small talk", she says. »
When will this idea that because Language X doesn't have Y, the idea Y represents is alien to X speakers finally disappear ?
Although language does have an influence on one's thinking habit, this idea is a gross misrepresentation of very complex phenomena.
There's no word in French for the verb "to need".
There's no future tense in Finnish, nor are there any articles.
There are no perfective verbs or declensions in English.
Yet, if an idea is intelligible, chances are you can express it in any language, and translate the result in any other.
'There's no word in French for the verb "to need".'
Sure, but there is an expression for the idea - the article didn't just say that there isn't a word for small talk, it said that Germans don't even do small talk. The example given was that th German translation of a Paddington Bear book actually just cuts out the small talk, which does indeed seem to support the idea that you disagree with...
Can we please kill that stupid “X has no word for Y!” snowclone? Please? (Or at least get people to do some basic research before they say something stupid like that.)
As some light googling will reveal (or thinking for a few seconds, if you are, like me, a native German speaker), German does indeed have a word for small talk. There is „Plausch” (that’s the noun) and “plaudern” (and the verb). I suspect that there are also a few other words in regional dialects. („Schwätzchen”, maybe.) There is also „Tratsch“ but that’s more along the lines of gossip and usually between two people who know each other.
I do suspect that small talk is rarer in Germany but I would like to see a quantitative study confirming that, not (what seems like) idle speculation from a Professor who doesn’t even know that her own language has a word for small talk.
On one hand, I want to say you should read the thread before posting, on the other hand, if someone reaches the same conclusions independently from the rest, it decreases the likelihood that we're all insane.
"The German language doesn't even have an expression for "small talk", she says. It is so alien that in the German translation of A Bear called Paddington - Paddington unser kleiner Baer - it was omitted."
Klatsch? Gerede? I'm pretty sure Heidegger's Gerede comes pretty close to what we call "small talk".
"Gerede" is a word that I've only heard in debates to suggest that something is not to be taken seriously, i.e. it has serious negative connotations. Perhaps it used to mean "small talk" in the past when Germans did such things, and then changed to have the negative meaning when small talk fell out of favour? Of course, the German word "Smalltalk" also tends to be used negatively ;)
I always wondered why Britain was so keen to keep the efforts at Bletchley Park so secret after the war had been won - it turns out we were selling encryption machines very similar to Enigma to lots of countries and organizations and we didn't want anyone to know that we could break the codes.
Even UK and German attitudes to IT secruity and social are very different. I was fascinated to see that Germans are far more likely to block Twitter in the workplace that Brits: http://twitpic.com/52e4cm
[+] [-] sp_|15 years ago|reply
I also like how they used the lack of a German word for smalltalk in the article. Whenever I explain differences between German behavior and Anglo-American behavior to Americans/Brits I tell them the German language has no words for smalltalk, jaywalking, and date rape to set the tone for my explanation. :)
[+] [-] jdietrich|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wybo|15 years ago|reply
'Thanks', and 'please', are used in Dutch only when there is much to thank for (saving someones life, or at least possessions or the like). While in English they are part of almost any question or exchange, no matter how trivial.
Another one is 'how are you doing', which in Dutch is used to express concern/interest between close friends, or towards a stranger looking extremely distressed. While the English use it almost instead of the neutral 'Hi' between people who met once before. At first it made me wonder whether I looked alright (yes I shaved and showered, and all :).
So yes, they take getting used to, and a common mistake for Dutch/German people probably is (it was for me) thinking that they are meant as strongly as one is used to. But it does not take long to get used to.
Call it a cultural bias, but I slightly prefer the Dutch/German way, as it takes up less time, makes it more straightforward to find out what people think (fewer understatements as well), and does not deflate the meaning of the terms used as much...
(strangely enough the English don't use different terms or pronunciations when there is more to thank for, than the usual, making it hard to judge the extent of gratefulness / problems, etc)...
Anyway, at home they think I am very polite now, thanks :)
[+] [-] com|15 years ago|reply
As something like a native English speaker I was surprised how often people in Dutch say please and thank you in the Netherlands! (Flanders is of course a different cultural ball-game with politeness rules that remind me of German or French)
The informal would-you-mind-please word is "alsjeblieft" and it is normally used in any interaction with a child or someone in a shop, or even friends of whom you're asking a favour.
And while the informal thank words "dank je wel", "bedankt", "dank je" and "dank" are slightly less used than in much of the English-speaking world, they're still used for lots of stuff that is rather more trivial than saving someone's life. And seem always to be used after asking someone to do something like move their bag off a seat in a packed train... ;-)
And the Dutch certainly say informal hello's - with a slightly smaller bewildering array of sound-words than their goodbyes - with a lot more polite abandon than you'd find in urban English-speaking societies.
I suspect there's a kind of politeness-blindness working here: cultural norms and paradigms are fairly invisible once you're embedded into a society. Once you move, like wybo, the differences snap into focus.
[+] [-] JCB_K|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blumentopf|15 years ago|reply
Interestingly, attitudes differ even among German-speaking countries: Austrians often criticize the German "yes means yes, no means no" attitude. I've read an article which attributed this to Austrians' centuries of experience with their Balkan neighbours, which has increased their acceptance of slack and thus has made them much more relaxed than the Germans. Not sure in how far this is true ;-)
[+] [-] stcredzero|15 years ago|reply
The Vietnamese have a similar attitude. The "Thank You" on your electric bill? The Vietnamese attitude is WTF?
[+] [-] detst|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] schrototo|15 years ago|reply
What a ridiculous article. Of course Germans have inane conversations about the weather and other trivialities. You know what the German word for "small talk" is? It's "small talk".
[+] [-] VMG|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barry-cotter|15 years ago|reply
Growing a new social circle in Germany is a complete bitch in large part because people really are less superficial and more direct. The "etiquette of simulation" makes everything so much easier. I'm not saying it's all that easy to get to know people in my home country, Ireland, but there is at least a place where talking to total strangers will not get you funny looks, the pub.
And dating, oh god, dating.
I miss Germany.
[+] [-] stcredzero|15 years ago|reply
I miss Germany.
Why, are German women like: "Yes, all required attributes check out. How far is your apartment?"
[+] [-] ChrisMac|15 years ago|reply
Or sometimes you're making small talk with someone because you actually are interested in them, and just want to keep the first minute or two of the conversation light for whatever reason. Maybe you haven't seen them in a while and do want to catch up on really general things, or the weather really has been odd lately, or you can't think of anything to say right away and having some stock questions gives you a chance to get your bearings.
Just because it's a bit formulaic and routine doesn't mean all small talk is insincere.
[+] [-] mdda|15 years ago|reply
And that's why I prefer NYC : I prefer people to listen to what I have to say, rather than rate me based on my cultural baggage...
[+] [-] Typhon|15 years ago|reply
When will this idea that because Language X doesn't have Y, the idea Y represents is alien to X speakers finally disappear ?
Although language does have an influence on one's thinking habit, this idea is a gross misrepresentation of very complex phenomena.
There's no word in French for the verb "to need". There's no future tense in Finnish, nor are there any articles. There are no perfective verbs or declensions in English.
Yet, if an idea is intelligible, chances are you can express it in any language, and translate the result in any other.
[+] [-] Vivtek|15 years ago|reply
Hungarian has no word for "to have". No, really! The equivalent circumlocution for "he has X" is more or less "there is X for him".
Languages are weirder than most people give them credit for.
[+] [-] _b8r0|15 years ago|reply
Un moment, s'il vous plait. J'ai besoin d'un dictionnaire Français. :)
Translates as: One moment please. I need a French dictionary.
[+] [-] demallien|15 years ago|reply
Sure, but there is an expression for the idea - the article didn't just say that there isn't a word for small talk, it said that Germans don't even do small talk. The example given was that th German translation of a Paddington Bear book actually just cuts out the small talk, which does indeed seem to support the idea that you disagree with...
[+] [-] pagekalisedown|15 years ago|reply
Verbs are a lot more complex in French than in English, so I'm glad they went that way. Seems a lot simpler than adding a whole new verb.
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|15 years ago|reply
Huh, really? How do they express phrases that refer to future events?
[+] [-] ugh|15 years ago|reply
As some light googling will reveal (or thinking for a few seconds, if you are, like me, a native German speaker), German does indeed have a word for small talk. There is „Plausch” (that’s the noun) and “plaudern” (and the verb). I suspect that there are also a few other words in regional dialects. („Schwätzchen”, maybe.) There is also „Tratsch“ but that’s more along the lines of gossip and usually between two people who know each other.
I do suspect that small talk is rarer in Germany but I would like to see a quantitative study confirming that, not (what seems like) idle speculation from a Professor who doesn’t even know that her own language has a word for small talk.
[+] [-] Typhon|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BasDirks|15 years ago|reply
Klatsch? Gerede? I'm pretty sure Heidegger's Gerede comes pretty close to what we call "small talk".
[+] [-] nhaehnle|15 years ago|reply
"Klatsch" is not "small talk", it's "gossip".
"Gerede" is a word that I've only heard in debates to suggest that something is not to be taken seriously, i.e. it has serious negative connotations. Perhaps it used to mean "small talk" in the past when Germans did such things, and then changed to have the negative meaning when small talk fell out of favour? Of course, the German word "Smalltalk" also tends to be used negatively ;)
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] StudyAnimal|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stcredzero|15 years ago|reply
From a German perspective, this is uncomfortably close to deceit.
IMO, this is one of the reasons the Germans lost the war. The English speakers are by nature sneakier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_(flying_bomb)#Deception
http://www.suite101.com/content/allied-misdirection-fooled-g...
[+] [-] arethuza|15 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer#Influence_and...
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[+] [-] IDGConnect|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jordinl|15 years ago|reply