The waiter rule works - if someone is rude to a waiter, it's an incredibly bad sign, because at the very least, it means they've never heard of the waiter rule.
However, just because someone is nice to a waiter doesn't mean they have good social skills or don't treat inferiors badly. It turns out there's an even better variant of the waiter rule: listen to all a person's interactions with other people. Listen, for example, to how that person talks about other people behind their back. As the aphorism says, what people will say to you about other people, they would say to other people about you.
In my real-life example of this lesson, there was a person who always gloated about how they had screwed or were about to screw other competitors, negotiators, etc, but of course always made sure to point out how much he was helping me. I foolishly believed it, when of course all the evidence was that I shouldn't. Eventually, the situation changed, he didn't need me anymore, and sure enough, he took advantage of me too.
Knowing how people treat others is supremely important as a defense mechanism.
A corollary to this, always speak in private as you would in public. Never say anything about someone else you would not say to them directly (even if you're talking to your spouse about work issues whatever). Sometimes you think you need to, but looking back it's always better to keep your own voice strong and true. It's like playing a violin. The more wrong notes you hit when you practice in private, the more wrong notes you hit when you perform in public. Eventually the bad notes resonate so much they start affecting the voice of the instrument and it starts to develop poor tone in and of itself. The wood particles start to re-align themselves. That's what separates the great instruments from the cheap instruments. Sure the great instruments were made well to start, but they were also played well throughout their lives. Always speak in private as you would in public.
As a general rule of thumb, you should always take a person's actions as a whole when you can. Unfortunately, you don't always have the luxury of getting to know someone well before making a major decision of some kind (for example, hiring someone). Sometimes you have to rely on these kinds of techniques. Not because they're foolproof (lord knows they aren't), but because they're all you've got.
Corroborating data point: A few jobs back, a contractor bragged over lunch about smuggling large amounts of spirits through Norvegian customs on his holidays. A week later he was found out lying about the hours he billed and promptly fired.
The purple sorbet in cut glass he was serving tumbled onto the expensive white gown of an obviously rich and important woman... Thirty years have passed, but Odland can’t get the stain out of his mind, nor the woman’s kind reaction. She was startled, regained composure and, in a reassuring voice, told the teenage Odland, “It’s OK. It wasn’t your fault.”
That woman had admirable self-control. It's difficult to retain your composure when you're inconvenienced by the incompetence of your social inferiors, but it's usually worthwhile.
The trick, I find as I get older, is to make the move from asserting status to assuming it. Instead of the mindset "I'm so fucking awesome, why won't these goddamn idiots stop inconveniencing me", you move to the mindset "I'm so fucking awesome, which means I have a responsibility to set a good example for these people". As soon as you start seeing your role at the top of the pyramid as being all about setting a good example for those below you, rather than being served by those below you, dealing with them gets a whole lot easier.
(Then again, maybe that's just me, and I've just over-shared enough to mark myself out as a supremely arrogant prat.)
Another story I like of noblesse oblige is about casino magnate Steve Wynn, who shortly after purchasing a $139 million Picasso accidentally ripped a hole in it at a cocktail party. "Oh shit", he said, "Thank goodness it was me". If anyone else had ripped Steve Wynn's $139 million Picasso it would have ruined their life, but if Steve Wynn accidentally rips Steve Wynn's Picasso then the painting is just as ripped but nobody's life is ruined.
Sorry, but I really do hate your attitude. It takes a very big person to never think of yourself as better than anyone else (I'm definitely not that person), but a few points:
- Why does the fact that it is people who are less important than you screwing up annoy you more than anyone else? I get just as pissed when I'm screwed around by a CEO as when I get screwed around by a taxi driver.
- Some people find it difficult not to get angry at stuff, I don't know if that's just because they've learned to be that way or if it's unavoidable. But for lots of us it's possible to, for example, have a drink spilt on you and think "fuck that's annoying" without getting mad at, or even blaming, the person whose fault it was. Even if for some reason it does make you angry, you shouldn't need any motive for hiding that anger rather than being a jerk about it, assuming they didn't do it on purpose (again, no-one's perfect, few people manage to never act like a jerk, and, again, I'm not trying to preach, I'm a long way from perfect when it comes to being a dick to others.)
- The fact that people have done less well in life (and/or were less lucky) means you can think "I've done better than them", you can't think "I am better than them". They're not "inferiors", and you're not at the "top of the pyramid", at least not in society, just (I assume) in your wealth. Being rich doesn't mean you're good for or important to society.
And for all your comments about having come across badly in your comments, that really hits at the heart of the problem so many people have with this rule. The last time the "waiter rule" came up on HN it was talked about in comments as a "yes, you should always be nice to waiters or you will appear like a jerk". No, that's missing the point; you should be nice to waiters because otherwise you are a jerk. And the fact that normally these views are kept in your head rather than spoken outloud doesn't change the fact that they are your views, your problem isn't that you told us, your problem is that you have them.
I know I've been pretty negative to you, but I do feel like you were asking for it.
> find as I get older, is to make the move from asserting status to assuming it.
When I took Improv classes, I always struggled with Status Games. I eventually got better. Improv is/was hard for me because you have to accept the situation, even if it is patently absurd.
> A construct of great importance to improv and of considerable value to therapists is "status." Status here does not mean "social standing" or "occupational prestige." As used by Johnstone (1979), status refers to what people do, or play, akin to dominance and submission. Thus, a waitress may play high status (condescension) while her customer, a physician, may play low status (awkwardness) despite their opposite social standing.
Seen in this way, human interaction is never "status-neutral"; we are all constantly adjusting status in relation to our surroundings and to others. Further, status transactions are territorial, involving the use of space, gesture, posture, vocal inflection as well as verbal content. In our experience, shifts in status regularly accompany significant changes in interaction and that such shifts are always noticed, even when not being acknowledged.
for me, the most important part of the story is left to the very end:
"“But for some twist of fate in life, they’re the waiter and you’re the one being waited on,” Barnes says."
And there you have it: the reason why one should be humane, polite and respectful to all - not because it goes with the dominant territory, or that others are watching, or because it makes you feel like Jesus himself, but simply because all that you are is a different face of the dice.
Sadly, if you're like some people I know that don't realise this, you don't realise that you could still be happy working as a colleague of the person you just graciously opted not to expectorate on. That means that (again, if you're like these people I have the mixed fortune of knowing), you'll only be happy when the score is rising in the only game you think you want to play (career, wealth and "status", probably with a pretty narrowly-adopted definition of all three). That means there's no way for you to escape the snakes amongst the ladders in such a 2D world. Wisdom is seeing the world in 3D, realising that you can change the board game; but that means challenging your assumptions about who is of value and who is not, and what the pyramid is, and who's above and who's below. Because how else do you expect to get along with the players of other board games if you don't.
What would make you think the people who are waiting on you have any less an idea of social graces? They probably participate in many more social interactions per day than you do.
Having said that I do think this is business advice is a bit of a meme, it fits nicely with our value systems and has such a fairytale type character to it. I wouldn't doubt that there are many people out there who are polite to all and sundry who would screw you the second they get a chance.
I think you're getting a lot criticism because thinking in terms of "social inferiors" is foreign to many Americans, but quite common in the rest of the world in my experience. I don't really know anything about you, but I'd be surprised if you were raised in the US.
It could also be that she didn't think it was that big of a deal, or that she didn't have an overinflated sense of self, or that she herself had done something embarrassing recently and saw a comparison, or that she herself was a waitress at one point and had done something similar.
We do tend to put our preconceptions in others' situations when left this vague, don't we?
I have experienced, you could maybe even say I've had the social experience, of all of the above.
I was a bit surprised to see an entire article devoted to this, as it's a very common in the theatrical world. Because of the short turn around time, directors are constantly having to work with new people. As well as calling people they know on the resumes, they will often ask the people collecting headshots and herding cattle outside the audition room if anything notable occurred. It can make or break an actors chances.
This is easy to apply to business. If you have a secretary greeting interview candidates, just get a quick opinion. Nobody wants to work with an asshole, and everyone remembers them.
If this is the case how come so many assholes got through the screening process? The arrogance of very successful actors is legendary (though very successful singers may surpass it).
And yet, somehow, we continue to see psychopaths promoted up the corporate ladder while decent folks - who pass the 'waiter test' with flying colors and are otherwise qualified for the positions - are passed over.
And they keep promoting them! I can't stand them or anything they stand for. We should do something about this, like we would have in the good old days!
I'm always amazed at how nice people are when they want something from you. If you want to see their true colors, you have to watch how they treat people they don't want something from.
Interesting, a friend of mine used to own a chain of restaurants in Chicago, recently he went out to dinner at a nice restaurant with family, he said that his sister-in-law's boyfriend had some habits that indicated a similar to the personality that's described here, but that aren't as obviously obnoxious. For example if a waiter didn't introduce themselves by name he'd ask theirs, apparently waiters hate stuff like this because it's such an unequal relationship.
I've skimmed the comments and haven't noticed these two thoughts, so will add them:
1) Opening line of the article: Office Depot CEO Steve Odland remembers like it was yesterday working in an upscale French restaurant in Denver. Waiters won't necessarily remain waiters. We are all human beings, regardless of our current role at the moment. There are also cases where someone may be more important than they appear to be -- for example, managers run cash registers during busy times at my local grocery store. I have long liked collecting true life anecdotes about such things: Charlie Chaplin entered a Charlie Chaplin look alike contest and came in third; a bank turned down some long-haired, jeans-wearing young person for an account and then they were given the account when one of the younger employees recognized them as a wealthy rock star; someone in a bank was an utter ass to a guy in overalls covered in paint who threatened to move his accounts. She said something like "feel free". He was the owner of a construction company worth millions and did, in fact, move his accounts.
Treating people badly who appear to be your "social inferiors" at the moment is simply stupid. That person may not really be the "social inferior" they appear to be. And even if they are at this moment, they may not remain so. If you are an ass to them, they will remember it when the table has turned. It is shocking how often you run into people later, sometimes many years later.
2) Even if they truly are your social inferiors and will always remain so, it is still stupid to mistreat them. That waiter carries your food from the kitchen to your table. Do you really want to give him reason to do something to your food? If you think he won't, then you think he's a nicer guy than you are. Don't be so sure. People with power may be assholes to your face. People without power are very likely to reciprocate but in a way that covers their ass, so it is more likely to be done behind your back.
So aside from my hippie-tree-hugger, give-the-world-a-hug, we-are-all-first-and-foremost-souls-on-a-spiritual-journey idealism for trying to be decent to people I meet, I think folks who mistreat others in this manner are simply stupid. Last, I will note that my observation has been that folks who try to lord it over others in this manner are also usually insecure and hiding behind their degrees, titles, big paycheck etc. I'm not impressed by such behavior, at least not favorably so.
I like the idea of the Waiter Rule ; but here in France it would be quite difficult for a client to be more rude than the waiter. :)
2 anecdotes:
An American friend of mine wants to become a waitress when she's back to US, just to give people the experience she didn't have here in France.
Last time I was shocked to find such a soft-speaking waiter, and I though for a few seconds he was just joking.
I could see this. During my senior year in high school I worked as a waiter at a four-star restaurant on Park Ave in Manhattan. The clientele included a lot of business execs working nearby and they often met for meetings. Some of the regulars were casual, friendly, and very cool, but then there were always a few who had a snobby and obnoxious air about them.
I like this as a psychological indicator, not just because of the employer-employee dynamic, but because I think it shows how one perceives their own self-worth, as well as that of others. If you're elitist and too self-absorbed in your own status, you're probably not well-suited for a lean merit-based culture and you're probably also going to be blind to spotting hidden talent in others as well.
Four star restaurant? The only internationally recognized star system for restaurants is the Michelin guide, which has a maximum of 3 stars. It really grates me that Americans go on about 4 star and 5 star restaurants
I always ask the receptionist about how the candidate acted. You don't have to be all warm and fuzzy (heaven knows I'm not!), but you do have to be courteous.
Here is a simpler version:
"Would you be OK with someone talking like that to you?"
If the answer is no, then you know what to do.
If the answer is Yes, then the other person probably did cross the line or whatever.
If the answer is Yes, but ________"Insert any statement of the contrary nature or how infallible you are here"____________, then you are a jerk.
It is not just about waiters, but any human being be it higher in whatever illusionary status system you believe in or lower than you.
I'd worry about someone who mistreats waiters for the simple reason that it is a sign that person is a complete idiot. Unless all that's left is for the waiter to bring the check, you are pissing off someone who is going to be handling your food. Mistreating the waiter is just asking for the next dish to be seasoned with spit or worse.
Depends on the country. There are still places where being a waiter can be a career but if you get caught doing something insane like that (I personally think spitting in someone's food should be a crime on the level of assault at least) your career is over.
[+] [-] apenwarr|15 years ago|reply
However, just because someone is nice to a waiter doesn't mean they have good social skills or don't treat inferiors badly. It turns out there's an even better variant of the waiter rule: listen to all a person's interactions with other people. Listen, for example, to how that person talks about other people behind their back. As the aphorism says, what people will say to you about other people, they would say to other people about you.
In my real-life example of this lesson, there was a person who always gloated about how they had screwed or were about to screw other competitors, negotiators, etc, but of course always made sure to point out how much he was helping me. I foolishly believed it, when of course all the evidence was that I shouldn't. Eventually, the situation changed, he didn't need me anymore, and sure enough, he took advantage of me too.
Knowing how people treat others is supremely important as a defense mechanism.
[+] [-] _urga|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j_baker|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brazzy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hugh3|15 years ago|reply
That woman had admirable self-control. It's difficult to retain your composure when you're inconvenienced by the incompetence of your social inferiors, but it's usually worthwhile.
The trick, I find as I get older, is to make the move from asserting status to assuming it. Instead of the mindset "I'm so fucking awesome, why won't these goddamn idiots stop inconveniencing me", you move to the mindset "I'm so fucking awesome, which means I have a responsibility to set a good example for these people". As soon as you start seeing your role at the top of the pyramid as being all about setting a good example for those below you, rather than being served by those below you, dealing with them gets a whole lot easier.
(Then again, maybe that's just me, and I've just over-shared enough to mark myself out as a supremely arrogant prat.)
Another story I like of noblesse oblige is about casino magnate Steve Wynn, who shortly after purchasing a $139 million Picasso accidentally ripped a hole in it at a cocktail party. "Oh shit", he said, "Thank goodness it was me". If anyone else had ripped Steve Wynn's $139 million Picasso it would have ruined their life, but if Steve Wynn accidentally rips Steve Wynn's Picasso then the painting is just as ripped but nobody's life is ruined.
[+] [-] corin_|15 years ago|reply
- Why does the fact that it is people who are less important than you screwing up annoy you more than anyone else? I get just as pissed when I'm screwed around by a CEO as when I get screwed around by a taxi driver.
- Some people find it difficult not to get angry at stuff, I don't know if that's just because they've learned to be that way or if it's unavoidable. But for lots of us it's possible to, for example, have a drink spilt on you and think "fuck that's annoying" without getting mad at, or even blaming, the person whose fault it was. Even if for some reason it does make you angry, you shouldn't need any motive for hiding that anger rather than being a jerk about it, assuming they didn't do it on purpose (again, no-one's perfect, few people manage to never act like a jerk, and, again, I'm not trying to preach, I'm a long way from perfect when it comes to being a dick to others.)
- The fact that people have done less well in life (and/or were less lucky) means you can think "I've done better than them", you can't think "I am better than them". They're not "inferiors", and you're not at the "top of the pyramid", at least not in society, just (I assume) in your wealth. Being rich doesn't mean you're good for or important to society.
And for all your comments about having come across badly in your comments, that really hits at the heart of the problem so many people have with this rule. The last time the "waiter rule" came up on HN it was talked about in comments as a "yes, you should always be nice to waiters or you will appear like a jerk". No, that's missing the point; you should be nice to waiters because otherwise you are a jerk. And the fact that normally these views are kept in your head rather than spoken outloud doesn't change the fact that they are your views, your problem isn't that you told us, your problem is that you have them.
I know I've been pretty negative to you, but I do feel like you were asking for it.
[+] [-] wallflower|15 years ago|reply
When I took Improv classes, I always struggled with Status Games. I eventually got better. Improv is/was hard for me because you have to accept the situation, even if it is patently absurd.
> A construct of great importance to improv and of considerable value to therapists is "status." Status here does not mean "social standing" or "occupational prestige." As used by Johnstone (1979), status refers to what people do, or play, akin to dominance and submission. Thus, a waitress may play high status (condescension) while her customer, a physician, may play low status (awkwardness) despite their opposite social standing.
Seen in this way, human interaction is never "status-neutral"; we are all constantly adjusting status in relation to our surroundings and to others. Further, status transactions are territorial, involving the use of space, gesture, posture, vocal inflection as well as verbal content. In our experience, shifts in status regularly accompany significant changes in interaction and that such shifts are always noticed, even when not being acknowledged.
[1] Status game training:
http://www.rehearsalsforgrowth.com/improv1.html
http://improv.ca/training/exercises/status-ab-walk/
And one of the most interesting things about power is that if you let someone play the expert and you the pupil, you will become the powerful one...
[+] [-] mkelly|15 years ago|reply
Wow. I'm not sure that's the point of the article.
Who do you see as your "social inferiors" and why?
I'll judge people based on their actions. I'm unconvinced it's fair to do it based on something else.
[Edit: formatting]
[+] [-] flipbrad|15 years ago|reply
And there you have it: the reason why one should be humane, polite and respectful to all - not because it goes with the dominant territory, or that others are watching, or because it makes you feel like Jesus himself, but simply because all that you are is a different face of the dice.
Sadly, if you're like some people I know that don't realise this, you don't realise that you could still be happy working as a colleague of the person you just graciously opted not to expectorate on. That means that (again, if you're like these people I have the mixed fortune of knowing), you'll only be happy when the score is rising in the only game you think you want to play (career, wealth and "status", probably with a pretty narrowly-adopted definition of all three). That means there's no way for you to escape the snakes amongst the ladders in such a 2D world. Wisdom is seeing the world in 3D, realising that you can change the board game; but that means challenging your assumptions about who is of value and who is not, and what the pyramid is, and who's above and who's below. Because how else do you expect to get along with the players of other board games if you don't.
[+] [-] greendestiny|15 years ago|reply
Having said that I do think this is business advice is a bit of a meme, it fits nicely with our value systems and has such a fairytale type character to it. I wouldn't doubt that there are many people out there who are polite to all and sundry who would screw you the second they get a chance.
[+] [-] gnaritas|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] btmorex|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] esmevane|15 years ago|reply
It could also be that she didn't think it was that big of a deal, or that she didn't have an overinflated sense of self, or that she herself had done something embarrassing recently and saw a comparison, or that she herself was a waitress at one point and had done something similar.
We do tend to put our preconceptions in others' situations when left this vague, don't we?
I have experienced, you could maybe even say I've had the social experience, of all of the above.
[+] [-] rickdangerous1|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Anechoic|15 years ago|reply
Oh well.
[+] [-] corprew|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Nycto|15 years ago|reply
This is easy to apply to business. If you have a secretary greeting interview candidates, just get a quick opinion. Nobody wants to work with an asshole, and everyone remembers them.
[+] [-] danssig|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mgkimsal|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justin_vanw|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j_baker|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] kmfrk|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] vaksel|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rendezvouscp|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spitfire|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] evangineer|15 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Swanson#Swanson.27s_...
[+] [-] Mz|15 years ago|reply
1) Opening line of the article: Office Depot CEO Steve Odland remembers like it was yesterday working in an upscale French restaurant in Denver. Waiters won't necessarily remain waiters. We are all human beings, regardless of our current role at the moment. There are also cases where someone may be more important than they appear to be -- for example, managers run cash registers during busy times at my local grocery store. I have long liked collecting true life anecdotes about such things: Charlie Chaplin entered a Charlie Chaplin look alike contest and came in third; a bank turned down some long-haired, jeans-wearing young person for an account and then they were given the account when one of the younger employees recognized them as a wealthy rock star; someone in a bank was an utter ass to a guy in overalls covered in paint who threatened to move his accounts. She said something like "feel free". He was the owner of a construction company worth millions and did, in fact, move his accounts.
Treating people badly who appear to be your "social inferiors" at the moment is simply stupid. That person may not really be the "social inferior" they appear to be. And even if they are at this moment, they may not remain so. If you are an ass to them, they will remember it when the table has turned. It is shocking how often you run into people later, sometimes many years later.
2) Even if they truly are your social inferiors and will always remain so, it is still stupid to mistreat them. That waiter carries your food from the kitchen to your table. Do you really want to give him reason to do something to your food? If you think he won't, then you think he's a nicer guy than you are. Don't be so sure. People with power may be assholes to your face. People without power are very likely to reciprocate but in a way that covers their ass, so it is more likely to be done behind your back.
So aside from my hippie-tree-hugger, give-the-world-a-hug, we-are-all-first-and-foremost-souls-on-a-spiritual-journey idealism for trying to be decent to people I meet, I think folks who mistreat others in this manner are simply stupid. Last, I will note that my observation has been that folks who try to lord it over others in this manner are also usually insecure and hiding behind their degrees, titles, big paycheck etc. I'm not impressed by such behavior, at least not favorably so.
[+] [-] nraynaud|15 years ago|reply
2 anecdotes: An American friend of mine wants to become a waitress when she's back to US, just to give people the experience she didn't have here in France. Last time I was shocked to find such a soft-speaking waiter, and I though for a few seconds he was just joking.
[+] [-] loy22|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crb|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] sayemm|15 years ago|reply
I like this as a psychological indicator, not just because of the employer-employee dynamic, but because I think it shows how one perceives their own self-worth, as well as that of others. If you're elitist and too self-absorbed in your own status, you're probably not well-suited for a lean merit-based culture and you're probably also going to be blind to spotting hidden talent in others as well.
[+] [-] smiler|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rilindo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SoftwareMaven|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danielharan|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brl|15 years ago|reply
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/03/business/03cnd-raytheon.ht...
[+] [-] nandemo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mceachen|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tuhin|15 years ago|reply
If the answer is no, then you know what to do. If the answer is Yes, then the other person probably did cross the line or whatever. If the answer is Yes, but ________"Insert any statement of the contrary nature or how infallible you are here"____________, then you are a jerk.
It is not just about waiters, but any human being be it higher in whatever illusionary status system you believe in or lower than you.
Treat others how you would want to be treated.
[+] [-] tzs|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danssig|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blumentopf|15 years ago|reply
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l0Yrdc_...
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] vnkatesh|15 years ago|reply