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Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

111 points| blegh | 5 years ago |theguardian.com

112 comments

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[+] delecti|5 years ago|reply
Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr...

Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

[+] skissane|5 years ago|reply
> Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

When Dante was convicted in 1302, Florence was the Republic of Florence. The Republic of Florence was subject to the Holy Roman Empire, but still remained a distinct legal jurisdiction (like a state.) The Republic of Florence was replaced by the Grand Duchy of Tuscany in 1569, which ruled Florence (with some interruptions) until 1859, when it was conquered by the Kingdom of Sardinia, which soon became the modern Kingdom of Italy, which in turn became the present-day Italian Republic after WW2. Each successor entity inherited the legal rights of its predecessor entity – the Italian Republic inherited the legal rights of the Kingdom of Italy, which in turn inherited the legal rights of the Kingdom of Sardinia, which in turn inherited the legal rights of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, which in turn inherited the legal rights of the Republic of Florence. One of the legal rights of the Republic of Florence was to rescind the legal judgements of its courts, even posthumously. Hence, that legal right has been inherited, through a chain of successors, by the modern-day Italian Republic, which therefore has a unique legal authority (not possessed by any other jurisdiction) to formally rescind Dante's conviction and sentence. Yes, it is a right of no practical effect, its exercise would be of purely symbolic consequence, but it would be the unique possession of the Italian Republic.

(The succession story I presented – Republic of Florence => Grand Duchy of Tuscany => Kingdom of Sardinia => Kingdom of Italy => Italian Republic – is no doubt somewhat simplified, but I don't think fleshing out those added details would change the ultimate conclusion.)

[+] pen2l|5 years ago|reply
I think we do a lot of things in our society for their symbolic value to formalize moral values and to demonstrate that we recognize past wrongs. In that regard I don't see anything wrong with this undertaking.
[+] vaduz|5 years ago|reply
Holy Roman Empire is not a factor - Dante was found guilty and exiled under the laws of the Republic of Florence. Ultimately Italy has jurisdiction as the successor state of Florence -> Tuscany -> Sardinia -> Italy after 1861...
[+] idclip|5 years ago|reply
I believe it is for him ... him and by association his family seem to emotionally need it. Let him Free himself from his psychological prison - even if imagined ... most of us use sadism to try and act out our unconscious violence/justice fantasies .. to use legal means is a step up. Non violent ... i (if in may be so bold as to attribute any significance to my own opinion) commend it!
[+] dmix|5 years ago|reply
The article mentions Galileo:

> “They were political trials and the penalties of exile and death inflicted on Dante, my dear ancestor, are unjust and have never been cancelled as happened with Galileo Galilei,”

But his heresy 'case' wasn't ever officially overturned by the Catholic Church. Various modern Pope's just said some nice things about him, but didn't go as far as over ruling the heresey charge. Assuming that was possible.

The pope had his talks canceled at La Sapienza University over this as recently as January 2008 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair#Modern_Catholic...

[+] Karunamon|5 years ago|reply
That's probably never going to happen. Galileo's heresy charge was for, among other things, denying the trinity (not his views on how the planets were laid out, as the common myth goes).

That very matter was the cause of some consternation in the early ADs, but it was long settled (to the tune of about 1200 years) by the time of Galileo.

[+] pacbard|5 years ago|reply
I guess that they could ask for a new trial but wouldn't it better if they would settle it using poetry, specifically comic poetry (or vituperium) that was common during Dante's time? It would be great if the two heirs would face off on tv on a poetry battle where they take turns to roast each other families in both Latin and Old Tuscan. I would watch that.
[+] gumby|5 years ago|reply
Could be a 1980s style rap battle, which is the most modern equivalent.
[+] WalterBright|5 years ago|reply
1302 to today, that's 36 generations. 2 to the 36th means his descendants today have 1 / 70,000,000,000 of his genetic contribution.

I'd say they don't have legal standing.

[+] cgsullivan|5 years ago|reply
A direct paternal-line descendent of Dante, which Sperello Alighieri might very well be, would essentially share a copy of Dante's Y-DNA, which is about 2% of the human genome. This is comparable to something between 2nd cousin (3.13%) and 3rd cousin (1.5%).
[+] mFixman|5 years ago|reply
Legal standing is uncorrelated to genetics.

An adopted child has 0% of the genetics of their father, and they are still legally their descendant.

[+] Grustaf|5 years ago|reply
They have 100% of his name. That is more important than biology to a lot of people.
[+] Metacelsus|5 years ago|reply
Since DNA is inherited as discrete molecules, it's most likely he has 0% identical-by-descent. (Except if he's a direct male-line descendant.)

But I don't think genetics has anything to say about legal standing.

[+] bloak|5 years ago|reply
It's fun to do the DNA calculations, but the article says "can be proposed by an heir of the convict", so it's probably not really about genetics.
[+] btilly|5 years ago|reply
But on the flip side, most people commenting in this thread are descended from Dante. So do we all have standing?
[+] ouid|5 years ago|reply
You're forgetting to double count for "incest".
[+] cjohansson|5 years ago|reply
This is like cleaning up the git history of a project
[+] spoonjim|5 years ago|reply
Can a government today even issue a pardon for crimes alleged by a government of 1302? It’s not even the same institution.
[+] dash2|5 years ago|reply
Are you sure? Italy has a lot of historical continuity. If you go to Rome, the manhole covers read SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus). IIRC the government of Florence still works from the buildings of the Uffizi.
[+] 29athrowaway|5 years ago|reply
It is a different government since the start of a government is marked by the adoption of its constitution.
[+] bpodgursky|5 years ago|reply
Symbolically, sure. Not like it makes any practical difference.
[+] notorandit|5 years ago|reply
The greatness of Dante is not even scratched by that conviction. He was a politician, he knew how hard politics can hit people, as seen during the Pazzi conspiracy events (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazzi_conspiracy). He knew, nonetheless he went on with his political beliefs.

So I think that all those actions are just a form of marketing. They will succeed. None would keep on saying Dante was really a corruption man, provided that anyone ever did after 14th century. None will ease his struggling once banished away from his beloved Florence. None can scrap messer Durante de li Alighieri greatness, as he, himslef, "built a(nother) monument lasting longer than any bronze will".

This year Florence is going to celebrate Dante, as well as Ravenna. It's 7 centuries that Florence is claiming back Dante's remains. But nothing has been done against that conviction. Nothing in 700 years.

Let Dante rest in peace and bring back his masterpieces of literature and politics back in schools. The world will be a little better.

[+] cosmodisk|5 years ago|reply
Is that in case he's still stuck somewhere in the purgatory with potential last minute changes to his itinerary?
[+] edko|5 years ago|reply
If his conviction is overturned, could his descendant sue for a wrongful conviction in civil court, plus interests for 718 years?
[+] tim333|5 years ago|reply
I wonder if they could do anything for poor Giordano Bruno who proposed the existence of extrasolar planets and thus was burnt at the stake in 1600 for heresy.
[+] paozac|5 years ago|reply
The descendant said in a letter to a newspaper that he didn’t ask for any trial revision and that this is just a legal-historic divertissement.
[+] barrucadu|5 years ago|reply
What's the point in pardoning dead people?
[+] zabzonk|5 years ago|reply
Lots of people seemed to appreciate Alan Turing (and lots of other people) being pardoned for something that should never have been a crime in the first place. Basically, it's a very concrete sign of how we want our society to be now.
[+] edmundsauto|5 years ago|reply
To correct the record, and to serve the general idea that justice can get it right, eventually. Impact wise, it probably makes the family feel better.
[+] jacquesm|5 years ago|reply
Precedent. Doing the right thing. Showing that we learn from our past mistakes and grave errors.
[+] PicassoCTs|5 years ago|reply
Its easier to fight past injustice then current injustice..
[+] leetcrew|5 years ago|reply
even if it's only the for the satisfaction of a few people who care, why not? it's not expensive to pardon dead people, and it has few practical consequences.
[+] adamc|5 years ago|reply
I confess to not understanding why people bother doing things like this.
[+] gumby|5 years ago|reply
Seriously, why bother?

There are historical wrongs that continue to affect people today, but in this case that's been damped out by time.

[+] sigzero|5 years ago|reply
Because it matters to his descendants?
[+] Jkvngt|5 years ago|reply
Dante's a weird one. Forgotten in his own time, Inferno was found concealed IN A JAR when a cathedral was being remodeled about a hundred years after his death or so.