I am slightly disturbed. I don't mind startups using Craigslist to market and heck, they might even be allowed to do this if they have an option on AirBnB to "market my property on my behalf" to just post the properties on CL every two weeks but what bothers me is this:
1) They explicitly violated the posters request to not receive "commercial" mail of any kind. This is basically the same thing as SPAMing. Would HN condone any type of unsolicited SPAM from a YC startup? I think not. The intent of the poster was to receive only credible inquiries from people interested in renting their property, not from competing services or people wanting to sell them on services, etc.
2) They tried to hide the fact that it was SPAM by using fake Gmail aliases and pretending to be normal folk just trying to help that vacation rental owner out. If you're going to push your service out there to people, be transparent about who you are and allow people to tell you to not contact them anymore.
I think startups are held to a looser standard and of course we all love to be "hustlers" but the idea that this behavior should be applauded regardless of it's ethnical nature seems wrong.
The analysis seemed to be from 2009, perhaps things are much different now.
This. I used to think they were clever, but now we know they're such repellent scumbags willing to abuse public resources for private gain that it's actually a black mark against Y Combinator to have been partly responsible and holding dirty money.
It's hard to say. Microsoft can push out new products with splashy announcements, TV ads, etc. Similarly, they can afford to do "proper engineering" these days. But Microsoft as a startup, and as a growing company, was extremely unscrupulous. Likewise, the majority of the "scrappy" web startups cheat on their tech and cheat on their marketing, in the hope that they can find traction before they lose goodwill, and get profitable so that they can go back and fix the system before it blows up.
On a personal level this is very frustrating, because we like everyone we know to behave in a honest and straightforward fashion. But from a business standpoint there is a huge tradition of using some amount of misdirection to push new products to people. Parallels can be made with the animal kingdom and the use of camouflage, bright colors, and social interactions. Sometimes your business is in a position to strut your stuff, because you're the lion in the room. Other times you have to sneak around or be deceptive. Sometimes, fragile, trust-breaking tactics work - at least for a time.
In the end, the real condemnation for this behavior has to come from yourself, not from others. The market sees what is in front of it at the moment; it rarely knows the truth.
I agree the 'attaboy' comments are way out of place, but there is also an over the top reaction the other way with the criticism being heaped onto the AirBNB guys in my opinion.
It was technically wrong of them to leverage craigslist by circumventing the community's own "no commercial email" request, and they should get dinged for it.
But in the grand scheme of things, when you are a tiny start up struggling to survive, this is a relatively benign grass roots attempt at marketing which the AirBNB guys even probably regret doing.
Comparing RIAA's scare tactics to this seems a little out of place, but it is right in line with Microsoft's shady attempts at astroturfing.
I started my own company to get away from the do-anything-for-a-sale attitude of corporate america. I do not admire or respect AirBnb for this behavior. I don't care that it worked. I don't care if it was legal or not, it was dishonest. I know it's common, but it takes a fundamental lack of respect to lie directly to another human being.
I'll just continue to toil in obscurity; self-respect intact.
I am not being facetious by this question, but did you make a product that you are selling ?
If so, how did you get your first set of customers ?
Please share.
If you have not made a product that you need to sell yet, I think you will find when you do it, it's MUCH, MUCH more difficult than you ever thought it would be.
Also, selling a service - i.e. web development/design is very different than selling a product.
This is the same thing spammers do to steal money from people, and it's the same thing that dating sites do to pretend to have women interested in meeting dudes. Either way, it's fraudulent.
I don't hate that they did this, but I hate that they tried to pretend they were anonymous women that happened to really like AirBnB. Why be so shady about it and instead why not just be honest?
"Hey, we noticed your rental and thought you might like something we built. It's helped a lot of people fill vacancies and make money; check it out - url"
I assume they couldn't be honest because it would've violated Craiglist's Terms of Use, namely:
You agree not to post, email, or otherwise make available Content:
k) that constitutes or contains "affiliate marketing," "link referral code," "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or unsolicited commercial advertisement;
l) that constitutes or contains any form of advertising or solicitation if: posted in areas of the craigslist sites which are not designated for such purposes; or emailed to craigslist users who have not indicated in writing that
it is ok to contact them about other services, products or commercial interests.
m) that includes links to commercial services or web sites, except as allowed in "services";
I wonder if Craigslist could legitimately sue Airbnb.
It's interesting that a lot of the recent billion dollar internet companies have some sort of gray/black hat streak. Off the top of my head:
Groupon: "we've already seen businesses complaining that the Groupons didn't make them money, or that Groupon sales people suggested they raise their prices substantially just before the Groupon 'discount'." http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/why-does...
Is this something the the AirBnB guys would put on their YC app form if they were applying again? And then what would PG & co make of it? In fact, did pg know about this or encourage it in the first place?
Answers to these questions might be a good test of whether they should have done it or not.
Everyone's focused on the ethics here, but if this is indeed what AirBnB was doing, isn't it a massive (and repeated) violation of Federal laws on unsolicited emails (for one thing, you're required to identify yourself properly) and likely other rules as well? What this article alleges isn't just questionable marketing practices, it's potentially deceptive / illegal marketing.
Clearly the unethical part of this discovery is that Airbnb used 'shell' gmail accounts to do their work. Instead they should have found a way to present themselves with honesty and integrity to future members.
What are the good reasons for Airbnb's success and valuation? Are there any stories about their actions that inspire both confidence and congratulations. (aside from their Obama O's and Capt'n McCain flash success).
> After harvesting email addresses (I only grabbed real email addresses, not anonymous craigslist addresses) I did one email blast to people that were advertising vacation rentals on craigslist...My results: 1,000+ vacation rental owners signed up and listed their properties on my test site.
He's missing a few steps...
How many email addresses did this dude harvest and blast to get 1,000+ people to sign up for his special vacation rental site?
What did the email say that he sent out?
Was he also sending them from throwaway gmail accounts?
What were his tactics?
This guy needs to follow up with more details. All he's shown is that at some point he posted 4 vacation rentals to Craigslist and he got 5 emails linking to AirBNB.
His findings rely on the fact that he got 1,000+ people to sign up their vacation rentals on his site after spamming some number of emails he admits to harvesting.
The "test" site he made (he's since edited it out), but google cached it http://bit.ly/iOPWi5 is www.mimbeo.com.
> "It's a no-brainer" said one of the founders. "We are offering owners and managers the same great service they receive from the pay-for-placement sites like VRBO & Homeaway. Not only that, but we broadcast our members listings to Facebook, Twitter, Myspace and more - and we do it all at no cost. We like to think of ourselves as the 'craigslist' of vacation rentals - with the added bonus that the listings do not expire - which is the main complaint we have heard from craigslist users."
Seems odd to go through all that for a weekend project "test" website. What's this guy's deal? This seems weird...
Good research. I don't think this is anything new. I'm familiar with a few YC companies that use CL as a method to get their supply (in this case vacation rentals).
> It never fails that I get at least 20 marketing emails a day from airbnb when I post a property on craigslist. I hope they do more of these PR stunts than filling up my inbox with unsolicited messages.
Is this 'grey' ? In the sense that it can be interpreted as 'shady' ? Hell yes. But is it "wrong" ? I don't think so.
I always thought that getting that first set of customers that will take you to product/market fit was going to be easy. What with the Twitterverse, Facebook and all and sundry. But let me tell you, from experience, it is DAMN HARD!
I guess the true test of whether or not this is 'unethical' is whether those people that signed up felt scammed after using the service.
If I were one of those people that got that email, sure I might feel a bit 'weird' that they presented themselves as 'Jill D' and not AirBnB, but after going through what I have been doing the last few weeks - trying to get customers - I can't say I would be upset.
"Is this 'grey' ? In the sense that it can be interpreted as 'shady' ? Hell yes. But is it "wrong" ? I don't think so."
I post a listing on Craigslist specifically saying it's not "ok for others to contact me about other services, products or commercial interests" (an option in Craigslist) and then a business tries to convince me to use their site using a disguise DESPITE clearly stating that I don't want to be contacted?
No, I'd say the true test of whether something is ethical or not is whether it violates rules and/or the choices of a user. Then again, I'm the type that actually wants businesses to respect my decision.
It is both "wrong" and WRONG: if you have to fake the real fans and the real efficiency of your startup, no matter how good your idea you think it is, it's just a bubble. Your startup sux, big time. As did and does Microsoft's (someone mentioned MS took quite the same savage approach when they launched).
I do not want to argue if this type of stuff is good or bad. But I do want to point out to you all that list of tech gods is full of similar stories. Off the top of my head:
MySpace started out purely through spam...Tim Ferris started out in online supplement sales...People complained about Plaxo doing black hat stuff... they sold ok. People complained about Zynga ripping off other games and about breaking every Facebook platform rule there was... look at Mark Pincus now. People complained about Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg stealing their idea... he does not care.
I lead a group of guys trying make money online with the rental business, so they can travel.
Each one is responsible for an area and it's hard to get new owners and apartments, believe me, but we never resorted to spamming.
Instead we contact the Owners directly and openly, then we go to meet them personally and see the apartments, when possible.
This way is much slower, but at the end we have much better listings for our customers.
We'll never be a billion dollars company of course.
i think people would have a much different view if this wasn't airbnb and was a less reputable company. The things described in the post definitely constitute as spam and violate CAN-SPAM...but these types of tactics do work (if they didn't we wouldn't have spammers) and there wasn't anything malicious about it.
Of course it's blackhat. They're sending unsolicited, automated spam to people who explicitly stated that they didn't want emails regarding commercial interests. There is a big difference between advertising and spam.
I think it counts as "blackhat", but I'm not really outraged. To me, its equivalent to cruising the singles section of Craigslist and responding as a sock puppet recommending a particular dating site. Not a huge deal, but its not 100% above board either.
[+] [-] Mizza|15 years ago|reply
Think the response here would be the same if it was MicroSoft or the RIAA caught in something like this and not a YC alum?
Anyway, great investigation and great analysis here, I think.
[+] [-] calbear81|15 years ago|reply
1) They explicitly violated the posters request to not receive "commercial" mail of any kind. This is basically the same thing as SPAMing. Would HN condone any type of unsolicited SPAM from a YC startup? I think not. The intent of the poster was to receive only credible inquiries from people interested in renting their property, not from competing services or people wanting to sell them on services, etc.
2) They tried to hide the fact that it was SPAM by using fake Gmail aliases and pretending to be normal folk just trying to help that vacation rental owner out. If you're going to push your service out there to people, be transparent about who you are and allow people to tell you to not contact them anymore.
I think startups are held to a looser standard and of course we all love to be "hustlers" but the idea that this behavior should be applauded regardless of it's ethnical nature seems wrong.
The analysis seemed to be from 2009, perhaps things are much different now.
[+] [-] prodigal_erik|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chipsy|15 years ago|reply
On a personal level this is very frustrating, because we like everyone we know to behave in a honest and straightforward fashion. But from a business standpoint there is a huge tradition of using some amount of misdirection to push new products to people. Parallels can be made with the animal kingdom and the use of camouflage, bright colors, and social interactions. Sometimes your business is in a position to strut your stuff, because you're the lion in the room. Other times you have to sneak around or be deceptive. Sometimes, fragile, trust-breaking tactics work - at least for a time.
In the end, the real condemnation for this behavior has to come from yourself, not from others. The market sees what is in front of it at the moment; it rarely knows the truth.
[+] [-] c2|15 years ago|reply
It was technically wrong of them to leverage craigslist by circumventing the community's own "no commercial email" request, and they should get dinged for it.
But in the grand scheme of things, when you are a tiny start up struggling to survive, this is a relatively benign grass roots attempt at marketing which the AirBNB guys even probably regret doing.
Comparing RIAA's scare tactics to this seems a little out of place, but it is right in line with Microsoft's shady attempts at astroturfing.
[+] [-] pgroves|15 years ago|reply
I'll just continue to toil in obscurity; self-respect intact.
[+] [-] marcamillion|15 years ago|reply
If so, how did you get your first set of customers ?
Please share.
If you have not made a product that you need to sell yet, I think you will find when you do it, it's MUCH, MUCH more difficult than you ever thought it would be.
Also, selling a service - i.e. web development/design is very different than selling a product.
[+] [-] nhangen|15 years ago|reply
I don't hate that they did this, but I hate that they tried to pretend they were anonymous women that happened to really like AirBnB. Why be so shady about it and instead why not just be honest?
"Hey, we noticed your rental and thought you might like something we built. It's helped a lot of people fill vacancies and make money; check it out - url"
[+] [-] thomasgerbe|15 years ago|reply
You agree not to post, email, or otherwise make available Content:
k) that constitutes or contains "affiliate marketing," "link referral code," "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or unsolicited commercial advertisement;
l) that constitutes or contains any form of advertising or solicitation if: posted in areas of the craigslist sites which are not designated for such purposes; or emailed to craigslist users who have not indicated in writing that it is ok to contact them about other services, products or commercial interests.
m) that includes links to commercial services or web sites, except as allowed in "services";
I wonder if Craigslist could legitimately sue Airbnb.
[+] [-] tlrobinson|15 years ago|reply
Groupon: "we've already seen businesses complaining that the Groupons didn't make them money, or that Groupon sales people suggested they raise their prices substantially just before the Groupon 'discount'." http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/why-does...
Zynga: "I Did Every Horrible Thing In The Book Just To Get Revenues" http://techcrunch.com/2009/11/06/zynga-scamville-mark-pinkus...
[+] [-] amirhhz|15 years ago|reply
Answers to these questions might be a good test of whether they should have done it or not.
[+] [-] tomkarlo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baudehlo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckFrank|15 years ago|reply
What are the good reasons for Airbnb's success and valuation? Are there any stories about their actions that inspire both confidence and congratulations. (aside from their Obama O's and Capt'n McCain flash success).
[+] [-] BYurgi|15 years ago|reply
He's missing a few steps... How many email addresses did this dude harvest and blast to get 1,000+ people to sign up for his special vacation rental site? What did the email say that he sent out? Was he also sending them from throwaway gmail accounts? What were his tactics?
This guy needs to follow up with more details. All he's shown is that at some point he posted 4 vacation rentals to Craigslist and he got 5 emails linking to AirBNB.
His findings rely on the fact that he got 1,000+ people to sign up their vacation rentals on his site after spamming some number of emails he admits to harvesting.
The "test" site he made (he's since edited it out), but google cached it http://bit.ly/iOPWi5 is www.mimbeo.com.
A quick look at the press page (http://mimbeo.com/vacation-rentals/press) and they have press releases announcing they got 1,000+ properties in one month: http://www.prlog.org/10408565-mimbeocom-reaches-1000-vacatio...
Here's a quote:
> "It's a no-brainer" said one of the founders. "We are offering owners and managers the same great service they receive from the pay-for-placement sites like VRBO & Homeaway. Not only that, but we broadcast our members listings to Facebook, Twitter, Myspace and more - and we do it all at no cost. We like to think of ourselves as the 'craigslist' of vacation rentals - with the added bonus that the listings do not expire - which is the main complaint we have heard from craigslist users."
Seems odd to go through all that for a weekend project "test" website. What's this guy's deal? This seems weird...
[+] [-] allanscu|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] windsurfer|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Caligula|15 years ago|reply
I wonder if this is the tenacity of founders that pg speaks of.
[+] [-] euroclydon|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] techcofounder|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Joakal|15 years ago|reply
> It never fails that I get at least 20 marketing emails a day from airbnb when I post a property on craigslist. I hope they do more of these PR stunts than filling up my inbox with unsolicited messages.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/21/airbnb-brian-chesky/
[+] [-] marcamillion|15 years ago|reply
I always thought that getting that first set of customers that will take you to product/market fit was going to be easy. What with the Twitterverse, Facebook and all and sundry. But let me tell you, from experience, it is DAMN HARD!
I guess the true test of whether or not this is 'unethical' is whether those people that signed up felt scammed after using the service.
If I were one of those people that got that email, sure I might feel a bit 'weird' that they presented themselves as 'Jill D' and not AirBnB, but after going through what I have been doing the last few weeks - trying to get customers - I can't say I would be upset.
[+] [-] thomasgerbe|15 years ago|reply
I post a listing on Craigslist specifically saying it's not "ok for others to contact me about other services, products or commercial interests" (an option in Craigslist) and then a business tries to convince me to use their site using a disguise DESPITE clearly stating that I don't want to be contacted?
No, I'd say the true test of whether something is ethical or not is whether it violates rules and/or the choices of a user. Then again, I'm the type that actually wants businesses to respect my decision.
[+] [-] UtestMe|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klbarry|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] buildorfail|15 years ago|reply
MySpace started out purely through spam...Tim Ferris started out in online supplement sales...People complained about Plaxo doing black hat stuff... they sold ok. People complained about Zynga ripping off other games and about breaking every Facebook platform rule there was... look at Mark Pincus now. People complained about Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg stealing their idea... he does not care.
[+] [-] keiferski|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fs111|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Lucadg|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kcurtin|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nhangen|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rvanniekerk|15 years ago|reply
Blackhat insinuates that someone is being gamed, in this case, both the home owners and AirBnB are benefiting (maybe craigslist is losing out?).
[+] [-] helium|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qeorge|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smackfu|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zakuzaa|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tzm|15 years ago|reply
I generally expect to receive spam from CL when posting or responding to ads.
[+] [-] vacri|15 years ago|reply