[hollowcelery]

I feel like there are at least two very distinct notions of "nightclub" (not counting gay clubs), and in online discussions people generally talk past each other without realising they're referring to very different things. I see this happening already in this comment section - the clubs some of you are talking about have nothing to do with the ones being discussed in the article. Let me quickly list the attributes of the two main categories of club:

1) Dressing up in a button-down or a suit or a dress and high heels. Sitting down at tables around $300 bottles of Grey Goose. Pop music, hip-hop, electrohouse. Crowd is mostly straight, most attendees are there with the intention of meeting a sexual partner. You stay for 1-3 hours, mostly talk and get wasted and dance a bit.

2) Dressing in casual clothing or streetwear-oriented fashion with comfortable shoes for dancing. Few or no tables - the dancefloor is the primary attraction. More drugs than drinks. Crowd skews alternative with strong LGBT presence. People are there for the music, which is generally repetitive electronic music, house or techno or DnB etc. You stay for 3-8 hours, mostly dancing and talking to friends, drinking but probably not getting drunk.

This article is mostly discussing the second category, but I'm not sure how familiar American readers will be with this style of club - my understanding is that it's primarily a European phenomenon, with outshoots in some key non-European cities (NYC, Detroit, Sao Paulo, Tokyo to name a few). These clubs are closer in concept to American raves, except at dedicated club venues. These spaces have historically been incredibly important for minority communities (queer, black, latino) also for musicians. They foster the cutting-edge of underground electronic music, which eventually filters down to shape the next generation of radio pop. Berghain, the club mentioned at the start of the article, is the prototypical example of such a venue.

I don't care for the first category of clubs and I don't attend them, but it would be a huge loss to culture if the second style of club disappears. It was already struggling pre-Covid, with many clubs in London doubling as event spaces or art spaces during the day in order to raise more money.

[hattmall]

The first one is what we've always referred to as a Vegas club, primarily focused around bottle service. Literally over half and sometimes even more, like 90%, is dedicated to tables. I really wouldn't say that's the norm for most people in America. You really won't find clubs like that outside of a few major cities like NYC, LA, Miami and of course Vegas.

But every city has nightclubs that are more of a mix of the two. The dance floor being the main attraction for most people, but they will still have a VIP area with tables and bottle service that takes up maybe 10% max of the floor space and wearing a suit would make most people assume you are coming from a wedding.

Music is normally an infusion of electronic and hiphop. In a lot of places they will have a different dance floor that's more focused on a particular genre for the night be it deep house or 80s hair bands. IMO that's 95% of the clubs people are attending in the US.

[scraft]

This doesn't reflect my experience from the UK. In the UK a club to people I know is thought of roughly as:

- Late (22:00 - 03:00 probably been core hours)

- Music/dancing being the primary activity

- A small amount of seating, either VIP tables, or some small area or bit near the dance floor

- Alcohol (and perhaps drugs) being consumed quite liberally

- A lot of the clientele looking for a short term partner

The dress side of it just varies, there are places with little to no dress code, places that require shirt and shoes and others inbetween, but I wouldn't specifically say the dress code leads to fundamentally different places, except, the more relaxed dress code typically means more relaxed, diverse people, where as fancy dress code can be a bit more mainstream/think-they-are-something-special.

Places you sit down at tables and drink are typically pubs or bars. These days the two are pretty similar, at a push the more traditional feeling places are more likely to being pubs.

When I was younger I went to the above type establishments not just in the UK but in pretty much every country in the EU and something I found in lots of the EU is something I call "europop" nightclubs, which is a bit harder to explain, but it is venues which are really laid back, everyone just wants to have fun (no aggressive behaviour, male dominance/competition) and plays a whole host of music that has never come to the UK, but everyone over there knows. All of my best club experiences have been these type of places - it's where a 30 year old rock influenced person can be dancing away next to a mainstream 18 year old student and they can chat without barriers.

I do see an increasing amount of younger people that don't really drink and fuel their social interactions from Tinder and other social media, so I have wondered a few times if clubs will fade further out over the years.

[antihero]

That just seems like a shitty meat market club that idiots and teenagers go to.

There are indeed a lot of them, but the second type in parent comment do indeed exist and are gems. Places like Corsica Studios, Printworks (though this is a huge venue), Chip Shop, Fabric, E1 (to some extent). Volks in Brighton. A LOT of them have closed down for bullshit reasons though (licensing, police being dicks, property developers squeezing rent, dickheads moving in next door and complaining about noise). A real shame. People absolutely do get drunk though.

The first type do exist too, especially in the west end, Chelsea etc.

[robochat]

One difference between the UK and Europe is that the clubs get started even later in Europe like 00:00 - 06:00. They seem to get later as you go further south so maybe it's something to do with waiting for the heat of the day to fade (?). As I get older, this makes going out to a club less enticing (oh, maybe that's the point!)

[rjsw]

I would guess that UK clubs have suffered ever since pubs were allowed to open later, when last orders in the pub was at 10:30 a club was the obvious place to go afterwards.

[ChrisRR]

From the UK, I'd agree. Drinks before you go out, either at home with friends or at a pub, head to the club 21:00-22:00 ish

Drink and dance, there's a few tables about, but it's mostly standing space and a dance floor. Kicking out is like 01:00ish

Maybe I'm oblivious, but I'm fairly sure our clubs are way more alcohol than drugs.

[clubsinuk]

This is probably because you aren’t going to the type 2 clubs that OP refers to.

Go to any of the following and see if you enjoy it:

London * egg, village underground, fabric, ministry of sound, union, e1, studio 338, Bristol * motion Birmingham * rainbow venues Manchester * hidden, warehouse project Newcastle * digital

[LeanderK]

to elaborate on the second, since it's a scene I identify with. For me, these clubs are culture. You listen to the music, follow the djs and select the venues for the artists that are playing. You come for the experience, not (just) to seek a sexual partner. I am in a healthy, non-open relationship and I am just as drawn to those nightclubs as I would have been without. You dance, dance and dance and get lost in the music, the abstract space the artist is creating. It's very unfortunate that those places are not recognised in germany for their cultural focus and therefore don't get the protection other cultural places do. These clubs can't really go commercial, it kills everything they stand for. The clubs and the scene usually has ties to the local art-scene, that's why many double as art-spaces by day. It's the only thing they can do without loosing their identity, but unfortunately art-spaces are also not big money-makers.

They also have strong ties to the LGBTQ-community are important for them as spaces where they can freely express themselves.

I don't think many politicians can really understand the idea that a nightclub can be culture, just like concerts, museums and art-spaces. A focus on something other than profitability.

[kortex]

My favorite dive is in that category, a goth industrial club in a former hole in the wall burger joint. The front is retro diner, the dance hall is cramped, filled with psychedelic art, and sports three giant paper maché tentacles emerging from an octopus mural from an undersea theme night five years back. The alley where everyone smokes is covered in graffiti. The sound system has gremlins and the speakers distort, arguably improving the harsh industrial tracks. It's the most welcoming place in the whole city (except for that one time a volatile neo-nazi showed up - he got literally thrown out the door, we don't tolerate intolerance). Ultra LGBTQ friendly.

I have no idea how they stayed afloat during the best of times and I'm not sure it's going to open up once covid is gone. But the community itself has been around since the 70s, hopping from one seedy joint to the next as they got shuttered, demolished, turned into swanky gastropubs and hospital parking lots. Something will arise from the ashes.

[novok]

Didn't berlin treat berghain as 'cultural place' when they moved it to another spot?

[mattlondon]

At least in the UK/London, #1 would be considered a "bar" (distinct from a "pub"), but as far as my experience goes (probably not been on a proper night out in London in 5+ years now) paying for a table is pretty much unheard of, unless it is a deposit/minimum-drink-spend for a pre-reserved table that then comes out of the bill at the end. To me paying for a table just seems like a ripoff.

#2 is as described, apart from there is probably entirely mainstream and not particularly LGBTQ (although there are dedicated places that specialise in that sort of thing)

Both #1 and #2 are usually over-priced and mostly filled with tourists or hen/stagg parties, and as such "uncool".

[leoedin]

Your comment falls for the same trap the parent describes. London has loads of #2 style dance focused club nights which aren't usually particulary touristy (unless they're famous - eg ministry of sound, maybe fabric) and basically have no stag dos. Tickets tend to sell out weeks in advance, which limits the "get drunk and decide to go out" crowd. People tend to be there for the music - a specific genre or DJ usually. The pull is the organisers rather than the venue, so they sometimes move around.

[hollowcelery]

As another commenter mentioned, your description of type #2 clubs in London misses the mark completely, and I suspect you aren't actually aware that type #2 clubs as described actually exist (which is fine - many people outside the scene won't know about them).

A hen or stag party would not be allowed in. The few tourists who are there are generally there becaus they know the scene and came specifically for the night. These aren't venues that you'd stumble into on a drunken night out. They're often holes in the wall in quiet-ish streets in Tottenham or Hackney or Elephant & Castle, and you generally have to buy a ticket for 15-25GBP in advance.

[paganel]

Good run-down of the two types of clubs. To add an European additional view on this (mine), I'd say that in my city (Bucharest) the second type of clubs was still ahead of the first type of clubs pre-pandemic, even though both were on their way down. Bucharest is (semi-)famous in the Electronic Dance music scene for its minimal style [1], but the club scene had become less and less important compared to dedicated festivals like Sunwaves[2], for example.

[1] https://www.beatportal.com/features/minimal-techno-romanian-...

[2] https://sunwaves-fest.ro/

[fleaaa]

I hate to say that the scene #2 in Berlin is completely nuked (big ones are relatively okay like the one you mentioned)but the small beloved venues are almost all gone which is bread and butter for the scene. If they aren't, don't think they'll survive till the end of 2022 it seems like, unfortunately.

There gotta be something to survive but I don't see any yet.. It'll be very interesting to see how scene changed after this era.

[jaynetics]

Do you have a source for this? To me it always seemed the people running the best parties weren't making a lot of money anyway, just enough to rent some decrepit building and a few speakers. This gave me hope that they'd just start again, some time in the far future, when they can get a crowd in that pays the bills.

Obviously many of the more institutionalized, mid-sized venues will be heavily affected - on the other hand, there is less need for office space right now, so I don't think everything will be rented out soon.

[pimeys]

I'm going to miss ://about blank and the beloved queer parties there so much. I spent my 20's in these and got so many friends and partners. Great music, free people and superb location. The party never ended.

When the pandemic is over, we have Berghain left and what else?

[andruby]

Some will die and others will replace them, perhaps with a lull in time in between.

Unless something fundamentally changes in the way we “celebrate” culture. Which might be the case.

I think those clubs and new music genre’s are driven by youngsters. If new generations of youth don’t feel the need to get together and celebrate certain musical quirks together, then perhaps the nightclub/rave format will become a relic. Maybe they’ll find other ways to find each other (online, vr, I’m not a prophet).

I had fun organizing (deep) house parties in a European city in small venues while growing up :) We didn’t earn money, but damn it was fun!

[alfiedotwtf]

Funny... I don't think I've ever been to a #1 venue in Melbourne that didn't have a stage for a live performer, whereas #2 there are a few venues per block downtown. And I would say although places close down, they are usually replaced with new management and opened back up as a new club within weeks.

Melbourne club scene has pretty much been open for the past few months as well with no sign of a decline. The only difference now is that COVID inspectors with bright fluro jackets are walking around now, telling people to wear masks.

[evanelias]

> This article is mostly discussing the second category, but I'm not sure how familiar American readers will be with this style of club [...] closer in concept to American raves, except at dedicated club venues.

You're not wrong, especially since electronic music has always been more underground/niche in the US, relative to Europe.

But despite that, this type of club was not uncommon in US cities, especially from the late '90s to mid '00s. For underground dance music (house, techno, dnb, etc) there was a nice mix of dedicated dance music venues, weekly/monthly nights at other venues, and a bunch of unlicensed/warehouse spaces as well.

This wasn't just in the largest cities either. Growing up in the mid Atlantic, in addition to the venues in all the larger cities (NYC, Philly, DC, Baltimore) there were also dedicated electronic dance music venues in much smaller cities -- Allentown PA, Atlantic City NJ, and Ithaca NY are a few examples. Often these venues were either all-ages or 18+.

These clubs all started to disappear around 2003-2005. The media had portrayed the rave scene exclusively as a teen sex/drug thing, which then brought in a lot of kids who weren't there for the music at all, and that led to government intervention both at the local and Federal level.

Over the past decade, there's been a small resurgence of dedicated electronic dance music venues, at least here in NYC -- mostly Brooklyn, always 21+, more serious crowd. It's certainly waxed and waned over the years. The closure of Output a couple years back was a major blow, but other venues like Elsewhere helped filled the gap. The club owners and promoters always had to strike a delicate balance of trying to be popular enough to stay afloat, but not so popular that the crowd sucked. I don't know if any of these places will survive the pandemic, sadly.

[dmschulman]

Curious, what spaces did you know about in Ithaca? I can think of only one or two establishments from around that time that loosely fit the description (The Haunt being one) but interested in comparing notes.

[namdnay]

The fundamental issue with the second type of club is that they’re usually not making money on the drugs. This was true for the Hacienda and its true for most of the clubs now.

I strongly suspect that it’s not the case for the mega-clubs in Ibiza, and that they get their cut somehow

[TheOtherHobbes]

Either the dealers eat the club or the club eats the dealers.

The dealers ate the Hacienda. It's over as soon as the club has to hire enforcers to keep the dealers in line - because the enforcers are also hired by the same dealers. And that gets... complicated.

It's a fair bet it's the other way around for the headline clubs in Europe, and possibly a few US cities (NY, etc).

This may suggest interesting things about who ultimately owns/manages those clubs.

[tin7in]

Mega-clubs in Ibiza know that and charge much higher entry fees compared to clubs with similar lineup in Europe. On top performing nights of the week the entry fee is at least 40-50€. Then you pay 15€ for a bottle of water. On top of that most mega-clubs have bottled service as well.

[randomopining]

Ibiza is the 17Euro waters. 17 euro tiny beers.

[v7p1Qbt1im]

Yep. I used to live in Berlin for a lot of my twenties and the club culture is really quite unlike anything else I‘ve seen elsewhere. I loved it, and still do (much less frequently though).

The sheer hedonism is really something to behold. Clubs can run for 5 days straight. Drugs are basically treated as legal and it’s generally a pretty progressive and respectful atmosphere. Techno is closely linked to the LQBTQ and BDSM scene in many venues (like Berghain).

Clubs are dying though. Many are being pushed out by real estate development and obviously covid made everything much worse. Not sure how cities are going to look after things open up again. Club culture has been huge but may not recover.

To get back to your comment. I have no interest in 1). Where 2) has its faults and is not free from elitism at least it doesn’t come down to class as much. But 2) are gonna struggle more because there’s (usually) not as much money involved.

[xvedejas]

I'm curious how real estate development is pushing out clubs. Here in San Francisco I feel like it's the opposite. Rents are too high and there are not enough spaces to open new clubs anyway. And lack of new development means young adults have to leave the city. You have to be lucky enough (and old enough) to have bought a house 20+ years ago to afford to stay.

[2112]

In Montreal

1) Would be a supper-club

2) Close enough to what we would call an after hours ; opens towards midnight closes at noon. Little to no alcohol, drugs readily available on premises, or pop yours before getting in. Typically has a techno area and a hip-hop area.

3 ) Club / Night Club here would be as @scraft describes in his reply.

4 ) @scraft > "Places you sit down at tables and drink are typically pubs or bars. These days the two are pretty similar, at a push the more traditional feeling places are more likely to being pubs." Same over here. Note the price discrepency with what OP describes in 1) and what this quote refers to ; beer, shooters, 100$ bottle of non-descript "booze".

[Edit] I might as well add 5 ) our world renowned strip-clubs. High-end no touching - down to sex on premises available. Stuff in between and probably ways to leave with a girl at any joint if you're nice, polite and pack $.

Disclaimer ; Intel valid as of 10-15 years ago ... probably much the same.

[goto11]

There is a kind of club I have only seen in American movies, but which I assume have a real-world basis: People mostly sit at tables, but there is an orchestra and an emcee, a glamorous singer and perhaps choreographed dancers with elaborate costumes. Does this still exist?

[treis]

Those are called big bands. These were popular in the 20s and up to the maybe 60s. It became cost prohibitive for a club to pay an entire 10-20 person band. Plus improving speaker & playback technology made it possible for smaller bands & DJs to provide the music.

[throwaway2245]

I would call this a jazz club (in the UK; even if it doesn't play jazz specifically).

[bitwize]

It sounds like you're describing a vaudeville theatre or musical revue. These were way, way more common before movies and television came to dominate American entertainment (and before the electric guitar and synthesizer allowed for "big sound" from a small band or single performer). They are enshrined in our movies because many of the biggest early American movie stars, like the Marx Brothers, crossed over from vaudeville. It's much less common today, but I'm sure some venues of this type exist somewhere. Similar forms can be found with more frequency:

1) Comedy clubs, where there is an emcee who introduces various comedians to perform their routines

2) Dinner theater, which typically features tables arranged around a central stage. Full meals are served, and a play (typically a musical) is performed while you eat and drink.

[lbotos]

The Backroom in NYC can feel like that at times, but it's not as large as the movie scene style that you are talking about:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Back+Room/@40.718804,-...

They'd have a jazz band playing and often people (I assume guests) dancing but really dressed up.

[selimthegrim]

Dinner/supper clubs in the upper Midwest but without the orchestra (see: Fargo)

[scsilver]

Denver was going pretty strong with your Type2 club the last few years, as someone whos done the Euroclub experience a(from Zurich to Barcelona, to Paris and London) the house and techno scene was working its way towards building a really awesome nightlife (lounge hangs on weekdays to clubs at night and warehouses for the after on weekends). Covid crushed it, but I think the internationalization of underground EDM is really pushing hard with the millennials and am excited to see what the next decade can bring as governments loosen their ties and find ways to allow even formerly "alt" attractions.

[LeanderK]

what about the mandatory closing hours in denver? I was very surprised that the US has so early closing hours (isn't it all about freedom over there?).

[atleta]

I don't see this strong dichotomy exists. At least not here, in Budapest/Hungary. Even though the city is (was?) kind of a regional party hub attracting a lot of tourists.

The 2nd type definitely does exist, though even that one is probably not that narrow a category, especially music wise. But I'd be very surprised if there was just one that really objectively matches your first cat. The closest thing we have is a party series (not a specific club) called "L.A. Nights" organized by a few expat guys, but 1-3 hours, no dancing, sitting all night, everyone drinking $300 bottles? Nope. Dressing up? Yes. But that's actually the speciality of their party.

All the other places are in between. Some pop music, some some electronic shit (I'm sorry, I've grown up on EBM & electro industrial, so these DJ edited songs built around one simplistic theme are pretty boring to me), a very few rock/metal clubs probably. Mostly dancing AND standing by the bar, a good half of the crowd definitely open to meeting new partners (unsurprisingly I'd say). Some get super wasted, most people drink, few people do drugs (I guess, nobody does it very openly at these places). So basically it's about having fun and socializing with the type of crowd you prefer. And there is a, sometimes very subtle, difference between the places WRT the composition of the crowd. Older or younger, higher or lower education, more or less LGBT people, more or less tourists/locals, etc.

[alexashka]

> ... it would be a huge loss to culture if the second style of club disappears

The 'second type' never disappears, it'll always keep going, because you can't make starving artist types disappear - they are already willing to be marginalized by the rest of society.

The particular groups and venues you are familiar with will disappear, but they always get replaced by a younger generation's thirst for self expression and community, willing to eat the shit sandwich of the starving artist lifestyle.

Don't worry, some people live to eat and breed, some people live to do their quirky thing and one of the quirky things some people just can't get enough of is music.

[neuronic]

Starving artists also have to pay rent and are usually not the ones running those clubs.

[FDSGSG]

At least in London and Dubai the first category is getting murdered by members only clubs and restaurants like Amazonico, Coya and Zuma.

These restaurants just deliver a far superior product if #1 is the experience you're after.

[wdb]

I always thought 'nightclub' vs 'club' was that the nightclub had VIP rooms, and nearly naked ladies dancing around, and £10 lap dances.

[syntheticnature]

I've never heard that described as a nightclub; that would be a gentlemen's club (once again, multiple meanings) or a strip club.

[apercu]

Re: loss to culture

Anywhere with a thriving local music scene and a community is a loss. Many of my favourite life time memories are live music venues.

[WalterBright]

I love the nightclubs one sees in movies from the 1930's. Too bad I've never seen one in real life.

[randomopining]

They’re just gonna die and then new capital (obv there’s a lot right now) is gonna come in and buy a ready to go venue for under prior market rates. Then prob hire some of the same people and start it again under a different name and or vibe.

[nicoburns]

> Then prob hire some of the same people and start it again under a different name and or vibe.

Unfortunately it's much more likely the new capital will close it and turn it into flats.