The world did nothing when same was happening in Tibet and China was a fraction of its current power.
Nothing is going to happen now when China is obviously more powerful. Moreover, none of the Muslim countries care, ME countries will happily sell China oil and Pakistan touts it’s relationship with China.
The world would have done nothing about Hitler if he hadn't started invading the rest of Europe [1]. And the CCP is smart enough to focus on economic domination instead of land-war.
Edit: Why would this get downvoted? Do you disagree with the interpretation of history (and extrapolation to our current situation), or do you disagree that this prospect is a bad thing?
It’s interesting to read the pro Chinese propaganda on HN. It’s too bad we can’t see the region from where those comments are coming from. It saddens me that people are forced to stand up for a regime that massacres and enslaves its own people.
This one is from Croatia, I can't trust any airquoted credible cases from western media on China, I've seen no evidence thus far and too much of this: https://i.redd.it/4ugpt0499ri61.jpg
Please try take a moment to step in someone else's shoes and engage with what they are saying before calling their comments "propaganda". It's not good faith behaviour.
I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.
> I work with a lot of folks from China and they (...)
What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously enough, there's almost no interaction between both groups, they politely ignore each other (and they are really polite and professional towards everybody also).
There were a whole series of posts on HN, and other sites by folks who talked about people traveling in the area and not seeing anything.
I don't know what that is supposed to mean / why we would assume you'd notice it ...
On HN and elsewhere people mentioned how they were happy people could travel through the area and not have to worry about "thieves" and they'd make some comparisons to travel in the west, a sort of chilling random concern considering the topic.
Often the same link was posted to a western blogger apparently paid to travel to the region. With the link the posts noted that the blogger didn't mention genocide.
>I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad
Because they have a different definition of "bad". If you follow closely, the mainland Chinese or CCP have different definition of the same word for literally everything.
Why is it bad to force them learn Mandarin and forget about their old language? Where the job markets are and to help them better integrate into the society.
Why is it bad to give them birth control pills? Or reeducating them? etc. They are doing / supporting these regime with a smile on their face as they think they are doing good.
The simple fact is that we don't know what is going on in Xinjiang and most of the reports in the West about what is allegedly going on there are by people who have a vested interest in making it sound as bad as possible or who likely have links with Western governments. On top of that very few people in the West know anything at all about China, its culture, and its history.
So, as a matter of intellectual honesty, I don't think it is possible to have strong opinion and to use extremely strong terms to describe the situation there as if that was fact.
That's really a common problem when information is withheld. On the one hand it obviously arouses suspicion but on the other hand it also allows over-the-top narratives and rumours to spread, and it is very difficult to separate facts from propaganda, from the other side's propaganda, from fantasy...
Im pretty sure that people said the same thing about the jews under hitler. Human beings are very good at denying and rationalizing away unpleasent truths.
An older family member grew up in WW2 Europe under German occupation. I asked them about general everyday life during the war and the holocaust. Besides getting bombed on en route to school, it "wasn't that bad". I don't know if it's justification or stockholm syndrome. Part of me speculates people in these situations suspend their reality as a survival mechanism.
I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking.
I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection.
I envy you, having been taught so many ways to learn, to listen, to ask.
You know, in China, they don't teach you those. They fill you with hard knowledge, 1+1=2 kind of knowledge. There's always only one correct answer: the answer from the textbook, from the instructor, from the authority. No question is asked unless you forgot what you should have memorized.
I envy you, having the freedom to argue 1+1=0 and discover binary.
As Chinese, we've been taught to believe, to repeat, to bow down to seniors, teachers, authorities.
It's the way of life here.
It's also the reason I came to the US.
And yet, here we are.
"You cannot trust anything reported out of China."
"No use in trying to discuss this anyone from China. They are totally brainwashed."
Do you hear the racists in these words? Do you feel the rejection of listening, the denial of communication, the blockage of thinking in those expressions?
Chinese are liars. -- is what they want to say.
Because the west has free speech and free press, so everything the western media report must be the truth. -- is what they believe.
Folks, where is your doubt? Where is your wisdom of knowledge?
Just because Chinese people were taught to remember the only answer, doesn't mean they can't think critically. Have you ever listened to them? Are you dismissing them just because of where they were born or how they were taught?
Just because you have a free press, doesn't mean your media is unbiased. Who are their sponsors? What political spectrum do they stand for? Is it economically or politically beneficial to talk trash about China?
Now you have to ask: What's your defense for the CCP? How brainwashed are you? Do you condemn the CCP for what they alleged doing?
My answer is simple: I will stay doubtful until I have first-hand contact or undeniable evidence showing one way or the other. Until then, I can't say if those allegations are real or not. If they were real, I (and I believe most Chinese people) would condemn the practice, and would like to demand a change.
"I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad."
-- It's a very common argument lot of Chinese people would use. Because it's relatively easy to find people living in Xinjiang or who come from Xinjiang online. Me too, had several conversations with folks from the area, some on Telegram where they were using VPN to connect, and some are friends of friends. Of course, we would talk about the headlines all over the western media. And every time, the answer I got is they are still working, living, studying as normal. There were conflicts in some areas in the southern part, but I haven't got any more detail than that.
These conversations are not proof of China not doing what it's been alleged to do. But you have to understand it's much more difficult to prove something you didn't do instead of something you did, and yet these kinds of personal encounters are the closest things we have to give us a perspective of the situation in the area.
To think back, what is the closest encounter you had to the situation in Xinjiang? Did you talk to any victim from the area? Of course, you would immediately argue that CCP wiped clean all witness and evidence, so finding a victim is almost impossible, which is another allegation that's almost impossible to prove otherwise --- how convenient of you.
But anyway, the closest encounter of yours is almost always the media stories you read, from western media, all over the places. But have you ever doubt that why all stories about China are negative? Why people are saying things to discredit every word comes out Chinese people's mouth? Doesn't it feel strange to you?
And it's not easy for someone to speak up for China either. I -- writing these words, am seriously worried about losing my job in the US just because of this. So I'm using an alias account. YouTubers that speaking up for China are constantly being depromoted, demonetized, restricted for sharing, or banned for their words. Is it free speech should look like? Is the west deliberately running some kind of campaign to discredit and disconnect China from the rest of the world?
Of course, that's an allegation without concrete proof. But you can find it is logically sound. There are many political movements and campaigns by the US and other five eye countries trying to contain the political and economical development of China - so their countries can continue to sit on top of the world's hegemony. It's not strange that these political and economical campaigns had affected public opinion and implanted negative views of China in its citizens' minds.
We can have a lot of allegations back and forth. Maybe they are all wrong - or all true. But the bottom line is, what kind of thinking you want to promote.
If you are spreading denial and racism, I would condemn you regardless if your arguments are true or not.
Please, don't let a Chinese person point out your fallacies. We were supposed to not learned that.
You cannot trust anything reported out of China, absolutely nothing. I do not doubt that there are people being slaughtered and massacred as I write, but anything reported out of China must be taken deeply suspicious, especially if it comes from the government. The Chinese government is the single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen.
Agree. I got lots of Chinese friends, relatives and in-laws and not one of them are willing to openly criticise CCP about it. On the contrary, they are more on the defensive. Tells you the level of brainwashing going on.
US/UK were bombing these Uighur extremists/separatists just a few years ago. Now they are seen as useful pawns in the trade/economic war with China, so the genocide narrative gets mainstreamed by the usual suspects (the same ones that tried to hide the fact that we (US/UK) were arming/training/funding ISIS and visiting Uighur/Turk terrorists in Syria).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and all we have are unreliable narrators. The only thing more upsetting for some Americans than a genocide in Xinjiang is no genocide in Xinjiang.
Americans aren't very interested in defending human rights, but they're deeply invested in defending the lie that they are interested in defending human rights.
I live in Hong Kong and that's exactly how I talk with people abroad totally panicking over the situation here. It's... not THAT bad. Certainly not as bad as portrayed, sometimes, west of the world.
Not saying I have any clue about Xinjiang or that the CCP is positive for the country, but I feel uneasy everyone switched from prisoner camps to genocide - it seems to distract away from the actual issue to move into borderline hysteria.
A bit like the HK situation moved from an extradition issue over a taiwan murder to a large "save Hong Kong" hysteria... But whatever, you used the racist card, what can we say ...
I take this issue very serious issue and I've spent a significant amount of time researching it. I think there is a settler-colonial project occurring in Xinjiang, but there are some serious problems with many of the western sources that undermine the credibility of this report.
The evidence for most of these accusations come from Adrian Zenz and ASPI. The report says:
> the works of Dr Zenz, ASPI and similar others would be accorded significant weight and would have probative value in establishing the relevant facts.
Adrian Zenz is the key source for almost all of the genocide claims but I think him and his claims should be scrutinized. The Grayzone did a very critical analysis of Zenz and his claims that is worth exporing if you are actually interested in this subject. https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-...
I think global attention could help the people of Xinjiang, but not if it’s hijacked by western governments who have an axe to grind with China.
> State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China
> The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
The amount of comments in this thread which appear to assume that 'genocide' means exclusively physical harm is concerning.
Just for the record: as per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide [1], genocide is officially defined as either physical _or_ mental harm.
Mass extermination is obvious, but here's another way to destroy a nation: through the deepest, most unutterable form of demoralization.
And I think the reason it's not more in the headlines is precisely because of its nature: we don't want to think about this kind of act, on a mass scale, perpetrated by one of the most powerful nations in the world, indirectly supported by Western economies and politics.
The BBC report is considered credible. The best thing we can do is to spread it, and hope it becomes viral - so that business with China becomes absolutely socially unacceptable.
This is something that future generations are going to look back at with a lot of shame. It's going to end up being in textbooks as another thing where students wonder why we were OK with genocide happening under our noses.
In the US at least, we are not taking this problem seriously enough. There's a lot of acknowledgement that something bad is happening, but not a lot of clear coordination on an international scale to actually stop it. I am generally a non-interventionist, but this is an area where we need to get more involved and we need to be more forceful about pulling the economic and social levers that we have at our disposal.
It still feels like we're just treating this like "problematic" behavior from a contentious ally, rather than a genocide. At least in the US, we are still not really grappling with the gravity of that word.
We have no leverage and the global economic system doesn’t care enough. Let’s be real, China is the new world super power. The US is still riding the coattails of prior success.
We’re a confused divided country and China has a brutally efficient system of exploitation the US needs.
I think the most shocking part of that article was the Chinese response. I can imagine a similar response from Nazi Germany.
--
"Some anti-China forces in the West have concocted and disseminated plenty of false information about Xinjiang and fabricated "lies of the century" in various forms," the embassy said. "They have smeared China's image and slandered its policies on Xinjiang."
It added: "Anyone who is fair-minded can see that the true intent of those forces is to suppress and contain China's development... Their moves are driven by a Cold War mentality, hegemonic worldview and zero-sum game mindset. China will never allow such farce and vicious demonization to succeed. Lies may mislead people for a while, but cannot win the trust of the world. Facts and truth will eventually bust all lies."
> A legal opinion is the professional judgement of a respected QC - an independent expert in their field - who assesses the evidence and the law and comes to a conclusion. It does not have a legal standing, like a court judgement, but can be used as a basis for legal action.
> This opinion was commissioned - but not paid for - by the Global Legal Action Network, a human rights campaign group that focuses on cross-border legal issues, and the World Uighur Congress and the Uighur Human Rights Project.
The word 'genocide' is a little tricky, it kind of implies death-camps, at least in the popular imagination, I mean, the first basis of comparison I think for most of us is the Nazi Holocaust.
A note below talked about the DoJ's concerns about 'proving genocide' etc. - it's besides the point.
If they are putting 1M people in jail due to their ethnicity and doing this crazy psychological programming, it's bad enough, the 'forced sterilization' and 'removal of children' is a very serious thing as well, but that doesn't need to happen for this to be 'very very bad'.
We might need to use a different word to describe this, that fits a little more directly to what is happening.
If China was not powerful, there would be trade sanctions, if not embargoes, which is something to consider.
The issue needs to be addressed, it steps beyond the CCP's usual arguments of 'internal problems are not your business'.
What’s most sad about all of this is that there is really nothing the US can do to stop the genocide. No matter how many times it’s discussed, no matter how many people and politicians call attention to it, there’s really nothing the West can do. A decision was made between what’s more important: Human rights, or a new iPhone. The West chose the iPhone. China has been killing innocent people and putting them in camps for decades. It will not change unless western government and companies decide enough is enough, and stop buying Chinese goods.
"After the end of the second world war, the British view was grim. It was that the balance of power in the pacific had been totally shattered in favor of the United States. One response by London, was to support Mao Tse-tung's communist insurrection, against the pro-American, Kuomintang government of generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek in China. FDR's personal representative in China, general Patrick J. Hurley, saw as a post-war goal, a strong unified China under Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT. The British backed Mao, with the idea that the communists could become the warlords of Bejing and northern China, while the KMT might hang on in the south, below the Yangtze river. Stalin was going to be encouraged by the British to detach Manchuria, Mongolia, and Chinese Turkestan, sometimes known as Xinjiang. The British especially hated Chiang and the KMT, who were the heirs to Sun Yat-sen's opposition to colonialism, and his support for modern economic development. The British by themselves would not have been able to consolidate Mao's regime. They were aided by the pro-British Harriman faction in the United States, including Dean Acheson and general George C. Marshall, who effectively made president Harry Truman their puppet in foreign affairs. The turning point came in 1945 and 1946, when Marshall was sent on a mission to China, which resulted in a half-year cutoff of US military aid to Chiang Kai-shek at a critical turning point in the Chinese civil war. After that, Mao made the long march to sieze most of China by the end of 1949. The British were among the first to recognize Mao's government, and supply him was strategic goods through Hong-Kong. After Mao's victory, the British oligarchs were looking for wars to cut the US down to size in the far east, and restore the balance of power. The result was the Korean war. Korea had been divided north and south between the Soviets and the US, although by early 1950, both had gone home. Harriman's friend Acheson declared that the US had no interest in South Korea, then Kim Il-sung of North Korea attacked. Suddenly Harriman and Acheson discovered that the fate of the free world depended on Korea, and they convinced Truman to fight. Truman ordered MacArthur to do the impossible, to save Korea with inferior forces. MacArthur's defense of Pusan, and then the Inchon invasion defeated North Korea and stunned the British plotters. Their gambit had backfired, and US supremacy was greater than ever. So the British turned once again to their favorite device; treachery. There was in those years a stable of triple agents based in London, especially in the foreign office. These included Kim Philby, the first secretary of the British embassy in Washington. Then there was Guy Burgess, the second secretary at that same embassy. Donald Maclean was the head of the American desk in Whitehall. Other associates of this group included sir Anthony Blunt, of Buckingham Palace, and Lord Victor Rothschild, of British intelligence. There was also Lester B. Pearson, the Canadian foreign minister. These men were triples. On the surface they were British agents. Scratch deeper and they were working for the KGB, which had recruited them at Cambridge in the 1930's, but at the deepest level, they were loyal to the British monarchy. It was British policy to stab the US in the back, so as to restore the balance of power. Having some triple agents around meant that the British could do this and get away with it, with plausible deniability. If the spies should be blown, the British could claim that it had been the KGB all along. The Philby-Rothschild group of triple agents were decisive in the Korean war. Phibly and Maclean were able to send Moscow, Bejing and Pyongyang, all of MacArthurs orders from President Truman. These included restrictions against carrying the war to China, with bombing, blockade, or hard pursuit. When Mao was sure that MacArthur's hands would be tied, he commited massive Chinese forces to Korea in November of 1951. Philby and Maclean obligingly saw to it, that Mao got all of MacArthurs military dispatches. So the communists knew exactly where and when to strike."
[+] [-] yumraj|5 years ago|reply
Nothing is going to happen now when China is obviously more powerful. Moreover, none of the Muslim countries care, ME countries will happily sell China oil and Pakistan touts it’s relationship with China.
[+] [-] brundolf|5 years ago|reply
This is my greatest fear for humanity right now.
[1] https://www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/britain-ado...
Edit: Why would this get downvoted? Do you disagree with the interpretation of history (and extrapolation to our current situation), or do you disagree that this prospect is a bad thing?
[+] [-] underseacables|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tim333|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guram11|5 years ago|reply
Things will happen, it just takes time
[+] [-] legostormtroopr|5 years ago|reply
The question is what now? Western nations have shown no political will to stand up to China.
[+] [-] ajay-b|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zecg|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ospider|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BelenusMordred|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cobraetor|5 years ago|reply
And the president of the United States himself dismissed Uighur genocide as being part of China’s ‘different norms’.
https://nypost.com/2021/02/17/biden-says-uighur-genocide-is-...
[+] [-] noobface1337|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] seattle_spring|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] enriquto|5 years ago|reply
What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously enough, there's almost no interaction between both groups, they politely ignore each other (and they are really polite and professional towards everybody also).
[+] [-] smnrchrds|5 years ago|reply
I asked my friend from North Korea how life is.
He said he can't complain.
[+] [-] duxup|5 years ago|reply
I don't know what that is supposed to mean / why we would assume you'd notice it ...
On HN and elsewhere people mentioned how they were happy people could travel through the area and not have to worry about "thieves" and they'd make some comparisons to travel in the west, a sort of chilling random concern considering the topic.
Often the same link was posted to a western blogger apparently paid to travel to the region. With the link the posts noted that the blogger didn't mention genocide.
[+] [-] ksec|5 years ago|reply
Because they have a different definition of "bad". If you follow closely, the mainland Chinese or CCP have different definition of the same word for literally everything.
Why is it bad to force them learn Mandarin and forget about their old language? Where the job markets are and to help them better integrate into the society.
Why is it bad to give them birth control pills? Or reeducating them? etc. They are doing / supporting these regime with a smile on their face as they think they are doing good.
[+] [-] mytailorisrich|5 years ago|reply
So, as a matter of intellectual honesty, I don't think it is possible to have strong opinion and to use extremely strong terms to describe the situation there as if that was fact.
That's really a common problem when information is withheld. On the one hand it obviously arouses suspicion but on the other hand it also allows over-the-top narratives and rumours to spread, and it is very difficult to separate facts from propaganda, from the other side's propaganda, from fantasy...
[+] [-] bawolff|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ahelwer|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JMTQp8lwXL|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yange|5 years ago|reply
I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection.
I envy you, having been taught so many ways to learn, to listen, to ask.
You know, in China, they don't teach you those. They fill you with hard knowledge, 1+1=2 kind of knowledge. There's always only one correct answer: the answer from the textbook, from the instructor, from the authority. No question is asked unless you forgot what you should have memorized.
I envy you, having the freedom to argue 1+1=0 and discover binary.
As Chinese, we've been taught to believe, to repeat, to bow down to seniors, teachers, authorities.
It's the way of life here.
It's also the reason I came to the US.
And yet, here we are.
"You cannot trust anything reported out of China."
"No use in trying to discuss this anyone from China. They are totally brainwashed."
Do you hear the racists in these words? Do you feel the rejection of listening, the denial of communication, the blockage of thinking in those expressions?
Chinese are liars. -- is what they want to say.
Because the west has free speech and free press, so everything the western media report must be the truth. -- is what they believe.
Folks, where is your doubt? Where is your wisdom of knowledge?
Just because Chinese people were taught to remember the only answer, doesn't mean they can't think critically. Have you ever listened to them? Are you dismissing them just because of where they were born or how they were taught?
Just because you have a free press, doesn't mean your media is unbiased. Who are their sponsors? What political spectrum do they stand for? Is it economically or politically beneficial to talk trash about China?
Now you have to ask: What's your defense for the CCP? How brainwashed are you? Do you condemn the CCP for what they alleged doing?
My answer is simple: I will stay doubtful until I have first-hand contact or undeniable evidence showing one way or the other. Until then, I can't say if those allegations are real or not. If they were real, I (and I believe most Chinese people) would condemn the practice, and would like to demand a change.
"I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." -- It's a very common argument lot of Chinese people would use. Because it's relatively easy to find people living in Xinjiang or who come from Xinjiang online. Me too, had several conversations with folks from the area, some on Telegram where they were using VPN to connect, and some are friends of friends. Of course, we would talk about the headlines all over the western media. And every time, the answer I got is they are still working, living, studying as normal. There were conflicts in some areas in the southern part, but I haven't got any more detail than that.
These conversations are not proof of China not doing what it's been alleged to do. But you have to understand it's much more difficult to prove something you didn't do instead of something you did, and yet these kinds of personal encounters are the closest things we have to give us a perspective of the situation in the area.
To think back, what is the closest encounter you had to the situation in Xinjiang? Did you talk to any victim from the area? Of course, you would immediately argue that CCP wiped clean all witness and evidence, so finding a victim is almost impossible, which is another allegation that's almost impossible to prove otherwise --- how convenient of you.
But anyway, the closest encounter of yours is almost always the media stories you read, from western media, all over the places. But have you ever doubt that why all stories about China are negative? Why people are saying things to discredit every word comes out Chinese people's mouth? Doesn't it feel strange to you?
And it's not easy for someone to speak up for China either. I -- writing these words, am seriously worried about losing my job in the US just because of this. So I'm using an alias account. YouTubers that speaking up for China are constantly being depromoted, demonetized, restricted for sharing, or banned for their words. Is it free speech should look like? Is the west deliberately running some kind of campaign to discredit and disconnect China from the rest of the world?
Of course, that's an allegation without concrete proof. But you can find it is logically sound. There are many political movements and campaigns by the US and other five eye countries trying to contain the political and economical development of China - so their countries can continue to sit on top of the world's hegemony. It's not strange that these political and economical campaigns had affected public opinion and implanted negative views of China in its citizens' minds.
We can have a lot of allegations back and forth. Maybe they are all wrong - or all true. But the bottom line is, what kind of thinking you want to promote.
If you are spreading denial and racism, I would condemn you regardless if your arguments are true or not.
Please, don't let a Chinese person point out your fallacies. We were supposed to not learned that.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] underseacables|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zed88|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bingbong70|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vivekpandian|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] mannerheim|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fricken|5 years ago|reply
Americans aren't very interested in defending human rights, but they're deeply invested in defending the lie that they are interested in defending human rights.
[+] [-] xwolfi|5 years ago|reply
Not saying I have any clue about Xinjiang or that the CCP is positive for the country, but I feel uneasy everyone switched from prisoner camps to genocide - it seems to distract away from the actual issue to move into borderline hysteria.
A bit like the HK situation moved from an extradition issue over a taiwan murder to a large "save Hong Kong" hysteria... But whatever, you used the racist card, what can we say ...
[+] [-] dj_gitmo|5 years ago|reply
Report https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ug...
The evidence for most of these accusations come from Adrian Zenz and ASPI. The report says:
> the works of Dr Zenz, ASPI and similar others would be accorded significant weight and would have probative value in establishing the relevant facts.
Adrian Zenz is the key source for almost all of the genocide claims but I think him and his claims should be scrutinized. The Grayzone did a very critical analysis of Zenz and his claims that is worth exporing if you are actually interested in this subject. https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-...
I think global attention could help the people of Xinjiang, but not if it’s hijacked by western governments who have an axe to grind with China.
[+] [-] nashashmi|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mensetmanusman|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Simulacra|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamjb|5 years ago|reply
https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ug...
from https://www.glanlaw.org/single-post/legal-opinion-concludes-...
This is the single most dodgy looking url I've ever shared.
[+] [-] throw495721|5 years ago|reply
> The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-...
[+] [-] Ansil849|5 years ago|reply
Just for the record: as per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide [1], genocide is officially defined as either physical _or_ mental harm.
[1] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-...
[+] [-] hh3k0|5 years ago|reply
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide
[+] [-] fractallyte|5 years ago|reply
Mass extermination is obvious, but here's another way to destroy a nation: through the deepest, most unutterable form of demoralization.
And I think the reason it's not more in the headlines is precisely because of its nature: we don't want to think about this kind of act, on a mass scale, perpetrated by one of the most powerful nations in the world, indirectly supported by Western economies and politics.
The BBC report is considered credible. The best thing we can do is to spread it, and hope it becomes viral - so that business with China becomes absolutely socially unacceptable.
[+] [-] danShumway|5 years ago|reply
In the US at least, we are not taking this problem seriously enough. There's a lot of acknowledgement that something bad is happening, but not a lot of clear coordination on an international scale to actually stop it. I am generally a non-interventionist, but this is an area where we need to get more involved and we need to be more forceful about pulling the economic and social levers that we have at our disposal.
It still feels like we're just treating this like "problematic" behavior from a contentious ally, rather than a genocide. At least in the US, we are still not really grappling with the gravity of that word.
[+] [-] almost_usual|5 years ago|reply
We’re a confused divided country and China has a brutally efficient system of exploitation the US needs.
[+] [-] nabla9|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] redm|5 years ago|reply
--
"Some anti-China forces in the West have concocted and disseminated plenty of false information about Xinjiang and fabricated "lies of the century" in various forms," the embassy said. "They have smeared China's image and slandered its policies on Xinjiang." It added: "Anyone who is fair-minded can see that the true intent of those forces is to suppress and contain China's development... Their moves are driven by a Cold War mentality, hegemonic worldview and zero-sum game mindset. China will never allow such farce and vicious demonization to succeed. Lies may mislead people for a while, but cannot win the trust of the world. Facts and truth will eventually bust all lies."
[+] [-] supergirl|5 years ago|reply
> This opinion was commissioned - but not paid for - by the Global Legal Action Network, a human rights campaign group that focuses on cross-border legal issues, and the World Uighur Congress and the Uighur Human Rights Project.
[+] [-] jariel|5 years ago|reply
A note below talked about the DoJ's concerns about 'proving genocide' etc. - it's besides the point.
If they are putting 1M people in jail due to their ethnicity and doing this crazy psychological programming, it's bad enough, the 'forced sterilization' and 'removal of children' is a very serious thing as well, but that doesn't need to happen for this to be 'very very bad'.
We might need to use a different word to describe this, that fits a little more directly to what is happening.
If China was not powerful, there would be trade sanctions, if not embargoes, which is something to consider.
The issue needs to be addressed, it steps beyond the CCP's usual arguments of 'internal problems are not your business'.
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] underseacables|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arminiusreturns|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|5 years ago|reply
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