I can't stand that schools don't like to acknowledge their role as childcare (i.e. babysitting) in addition to education. People set up their entire lives around the fact that their kids will be watched at school most days. Unless you are fairly wealthy, hiring private babysitters is extremely expensive and out of reach for most families.
Yes, the education aspect is more 'prestigious'. But getting kids out of the house so parents can work and into a social environment where they see other kids is extremely important for most families and society as a whole. The attitude of a school board member implying babysitting isn't their job must be coming from someone who either doesn't currently have young kids or comes from a wealthy enough background that they can't even fathom why this would be an issue for others.
It's concerning that this conflation of teaching and childcare is being normalized now. It leads to unnecessarily long school hours in the US. The school is set up as the only source of social interaction, that absolves parents from setting up any other sort of familial and social interactions for their kids.
> But getting kids out of the house so parents can work and into a social environment where they see other kids is extremely important for most families and society as a whole.
Yes, and that can be accomplished in a variety of ways, of which schools are one way (probably the riskiest way, in the current pandemic). Take your kids to the playground in the evening. Set up social playdates with other families. Let your kid sleep over at the neighbor's house. Let them visit their cousins and grandparents. Let them walk to school with other kids. Give a firm "no" to your boss for that 4pm meeting!
From what I have seen, most American kids seem to have no friends near where they live, and most American families have too many helicopter parents to let these normal channels of social interaction to work as intended. So they prefer that teachers serve as the helicopter for the majority of their workday instead.
Normalization of the workday to adjust to the fact that most families have working parents is what's needed, not saddling teachers with absorbing that extra load of childcare in addition to teaching.
The problem is the attitude towards education that often comes with that. They aren't sending their kids to learn, but are rather just getting them off their own hands.
Anecdotally, from when I was in school, the parents who first and foremost treated school as daycare and expressed such sentiments also didn't really care whether their kids learned all that much or behaved well.
The terms "teacher" and "babysitter" denote QUALITY of care. Both roles perform similar functions (at a high level), but a "teacher" adds more value.
By calling themselves "babysitters" they are expressing they are being insulted by the parents. They are trying to convey that they deserve more respect than what they are receiving.
You mean we decided to put them into an extremely artificial environment which they can't leave without getting into trouble, in which the primary skill of focus are academics at the expense of everything else.
Then, when they graduate from school, we expect them to swim and thrive in an environment that they have very little experience in, and that which a lot of people somehow muddle through life without certain vital skills like cooking.
OK. School functions as 'daycare' center. Sure. Because our society is structured such that parents are forced to work two jobs.
I think if we (including schools) acknowledge schools role, also, as childcare, then we are doomed.
Education and keeping a child busy are very very different things and should be different. Else the quality of education, which is already not held as high as it used to be, will erode further.
It may also be a legacy issue. This - i imagine - hasn't always been the case. If a two parent household only had a single parent working this idea would be quite sound, imo. That ideally shouldn't be the schools responsibility here. I want them to focus on what really matters, education.
However these days it's often necessary for both parents to work, and thus no one is available to watch the kids (and i'm glossing over single parents for simplicity).
Teachers are not babysitters, just like they're also not parents, even though all of these roles involve some level of overlap. There's a reason we have different words, and it's to express different roles in this case. The teacher's job is to teach, hence the name. Babysitting is not their primary function, it just comes as a secondary effect of having the children around all day and needing to provide a safe and focused space for learning.
Don't forget the energy delta factor. Your home may be a gilded cage, but it's still a cage. Much like many other pack animals, kids are social creatures that need to burn through a significant amount of calories every day for optimal health and well-being.
Venting is healthy, the clip of the woman talking about being picked on seems pretty benign - honestly I'm sure many of the outraged parents have said and done worse things. I understand the optics are bad but maybe they shouldn't be, especially because there's likely some degree of truth in what was said.
Given that the specific role of a school board (as opposed to principal, teachers, etc.) is to represent the community, the attitude displayed by the comments does not suggest that they are representative of that community. So, especially for the specific role of school board members, it's more than just bad optics.
Personally, as a parent, taxpayer and U.S. citizen, I'm appalled by this.
Reality is that we pay taxes for children to go to school to get an education. I personally think we need school choice for the very reasons presented by this school board.
Maybe, I want my kid to only spend 3 hours a day in a classroom with kids and I'll teach them the rest -- can't do that in the U.S.
Maybe, I need my children to be in a safe environment while I work a dead-end job to make enough money to pay for their food.
The truth is, we pay taxes and the state, in effect, assists in raising the children. In 2020 they stopped doing that. Zoom does not help raise a 6-8 year old, who are they kidding. Continuing this going forward when the current research we have shows minimal risk from having students go to school is insane.
This school board should resign and everyone in the district should lobby for allowing school choice. This would help dismantle the power these school boards have and improve education quality.
> The truth is, we pay taxes and the state, in effect, assists in raising the children. In 2020 they stopped doing that.
In 2020 there was a pandemic that shut down many things other than schools. That pandemic is, unfortunately, still ongoing.
This is tantamount to saying "I pay taxes, so the road I go to work on should always be open regardless of construction activity". But in reality, roads are often closed for construction activity or if there is a natural disaster, or for a host of other reasons that make them unsafe.
> This school board should resign and everyone in the district should lobby for allowing school choice. This would help dismantle the power these school boards have and improve education quality.
"The transport board should resign because I cannot go to work on I-123 due to an avalanche warning". That's an extremely simplistic view of a complex public health disaster that's currently affecting us.
> Maybe, I want my kid to only spend 3 hours a day in a classroom with kids and I'll teach them the rest -- can't do that in the U.S.
There's a reason the "U.S." doesn't allow that - education is left to the states by the US constitution. That said, there are many states where you can do what you propose - not all of them, and some make it easier than others, but it's not against federal law to do so.
> Continuing this going forward when the current research we have shows minimal risk from having students go to school is insane.
Minimal risk to child students, but risky to parents and very risky for grandma and grandpa if they live with the children too. I'm blessed that I can work from home, and realize not everyone can, so remote learning has not been that much of a bummer. That said, I am not sending my child back to in-person school unless 1. everyone in my household is vaccinated or 2. the government forces me.
Keeping kids home doesn't keep them safe. Except for those who already have severe medical conditions, school age children face virtually zero risk from COVID-19.
Venting or not, many parents are taking the rein of local school and its education because they don’t like where it is going.
- Often times, it’s bloated salaries at upper-level, textbook selection, insufficient recess duration/breaks and ... bad teachers.
— Most vocal are the ones with special-need child and often the most neglected category of students with frequent non-compliance to Federal and state laws on special education.
Special needs parent here. It's basically impossible to send your kids to a public school district without advocating for them constantly and understanding the special education laws. The kids with the most involved parents get the best services because they have the best advocates.
IMO it seems like faux outrage. People vent, this is fine. The babysitting comment was actually 100% on-point. I don't blame the school board members, I blame the parents. I say that as a parent myself of two elementary age children, because my wife volunteered for PTA and I got a window into the lives of the teachers and principal and what they face every day from parents. The truth is, many people are really shitty to teachers, and treat them like crap. Maybe it's politics, I don't know, but the things I saw were eye-opening. I think in many cases the children are more mature.
Wouldn't it be great if parents could select what schools their kids go to and teachers could select what students/parents they want to teach. Provide some choice and allow people to choose what meets their needs.
Isn't this sort of talk standard fair at school board and PTA meetings? At my locals, people talk and argue about crazy all the time. Parents shake their heads at one point or another then move on to the next topic. Nobody really runs to snitch on social media.
This drives me insane. Somehow the grocery store worker and delivery driver are essential, but a teacher is not? As if educating children is not one of the most important tasks on the planet. I’m sorry but a 7 year old is not focusing on Zoom for 6 hours nor getting socialization.
The evidence says opening schools is safe. Why the teachers unions have prevented reopening schools en masse is criminal. This audio is damning and shows the attitude towards parents.
As if educating children is not one of the most important tasks on the planet.
Of course educating children is important but the current method of doing so is not the only possible one, and arguably prioritises the lifestyle of so-called teachers over that of children, parents, and taxpayers in general.
What if the lesson of COVID is that MOOCs are actually better? Or homeschooling is actually better? Why should we go on paying teachers who, despite their bleating, are actually very well compensated for what they do (when they bother to show up).
School might not be 100% Covid safe, but the alternative of kids reducing their parents output and losing out on social and educational skills is worse that Covid. It's the same ethics struggle I see over and over again with Covid. Deontological: It is a little more dangerous, just shut it down. Consequential: We need to worry about the big picture and the treatment is worse than if we did nothing.
There does seem to be evidence that in-person schooling is not a substantial contributor to community transmission[0]. This link is just the first one for Google search results for query "evidence on opening schools."
That being said, I don't think you're expressing yourself well, or communicating with others well. What we saw in 2020 was a lot of lightly tested theories about what would and would not work, some being encouraged only to later be found to be incorrect. And the 2020 winter has been a complete flood of community transmission. So one approach might be to take a list of available actions to reduce transmission where possible, and hopefully cumulatively make a big difference, even if each action contributes a small amount.
We also know that educators are among Phase 1b for vaccine qualification, so we should be able to imagine that having a largely vaccinated population of teachers should improve both safety of opening schools physically, as well as the optics of doing so without putting our teachers at risk.
Given the number of contact tracing event's I've had since my kids school opened (with only about 30-50% in person attendance), I strongly disagree with 'safe'.
I've had to quarantine my oldest since his younger brother is at risk (asthma), and the toll it took on him was insane. We talked with him constantly over voice and video calls, he interacted with his brother over Amazon Echo's drop-in feature and online games, and we tried to do everything we could to make it as 'fun' as we could. He still has nightmares about being locked away from his brother, or that he got his brother really sick.
Why are we pushing for widely opening schools when even half-occupancy is dangerous enough to cause this kind of trauma to a child?
I'm sure I'm gonna get asked why they're in person, but the reasons venture to more personal than I care to post, but in short, they're both in Spec. Ed and weren't coping with virtual learning at all, even after many months of trying to figure it out. Combine that with two working parents and you have a recipe for virtual schooling (or zoom school as my kids call it).
I say we shouldn't open schools until we can vaccinate school staff. Preferably also students, but I realize that since most kids are in low-risk groups that's likely far off. Perhaps for high-risk students with compromised respiratory systems.
[+] [-] merricksb|5 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26208931 (54 points/86 comments)
[+] [-] chadash|5 years ago|reply
Yes, the education aspect is more 'prestigious'. But getting kids out of the house so parents can work and into a social environment where they see other kids is extremely important for most families and society as a whole. The attitude of a school board member implying babysitting isn't their job must be coming from someone who either doesn't currently have young kids or comes from a wealthy enough background that they can't even fathom why this would be an issue for others.
[+] [-] quadrifoliate|5 years ago|reply
> But getting kids out of the house so parents can work and into a social environment where they see other kids is extremely important for most families and society as a whole.
Yes, and that can be accomplished in a variety of ways, of which schools are one way (probably the riskiest way, in the current pandemic). Take your kids to the playground in the evening. Set up social playdates with other families. Let your kid sleep over at the neighbor's house. Let them visit their cousins and grandparents. Let them walk to school with other kids. Give a firm "no" to your boss for that 4pm meeting!
From what I have seen, most American kids seem to have no friends near where they live, and most American families have too many helicopter parents to let these normal channels of social interaction to work as intended. So they prefer that teachers serve as the helicopter for the majority of their workday instead.
Normalization of the workday to adjust to the fact that most families have working parents is what's needed, not saddling teachers with absorbing that extra load of childcare in addition to teaching.
[+] [-] MattGaiser|5 years ago|reply
Anecdotally, from when I was in school, the parents who first and foremost treated school as daycare and expressed such sentiments also didn't really care whether their kids learned all that much or behaved well.
[+] [-] geoduck14|5 years ago|reply
By calling themselves "babysitters" they are expressing they are being insulted by the parents. They are trying to convey that they deserve more respect than what they are receiving.
[+] [-] kiba|5 years ago|reply
Then, when they graduate from school, we expect them to swim and thrive in an environment that they have very little experience in, and that which a lot of people somehow muddle through life without certain vital skills like cooking.
OK. School functions as 'daycare' center. Sure. Because our society is structured such that parents are forced to work two jobs.
[+] [-] brainless|5 years ago|reply
Education and keeping a child busy are very very different things and should be different. Else the quality of education, which is already not held as high as it used to be, will erode further.
IMHO.
[+] [-] adkadskhj|5 years ago|reply
However these days it's often necessary for both parents to work, and thus no one is available to watch the kids (and i'm glossing over single parents for simplicity).
[+] [-] silicon2401|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thomascgalvin|5 years ago|reply
If education was prestigious, we'd pay teachers more than $30k per year.
[+] [-] anonAndOn|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CalChris|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wavefunction|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tryonenow|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rossdavidh|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nxrabl|5 years ago|reply
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/014616720228900... https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2007-19803-003
[+] [-] jdxcode|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] citilife|5 years ago|reply
Reality is that we pay taxes for children to go to school to get an education. I personally think we need school choice for the very reasons presented by this school board.
Maybe, I want my kid to only spend 3 hours a day in a classroom with kids and I'll teach them the rest -- can't do that in the U.S.
Maybe, I need my children to be in a safe environment while I work a dead-end job to make enough money to pay for their food.
The truth is, we pay taxes and the state, in effect, assists in raising the children. In 2020 they stopped doing that. Zoom does not help raise a 6-8 year old, who are they kidding. Continuing this going forward when the current research we have shows minimal risk from having students go to school is insane.
This school board should resign and everyone in the district should lobby for allowing school choice. This would help dismantle the power these school boards have and improve education quality.
[+] [-] quadrifoliate|5 years ago|reply
In 2020 there was a pandemic that shut down many things other than schools. That pandemic is, unfortunately, still ongoing.
This is tantamount to saying "I pay taxes, so the road I go to work on should always be open regardless of construction activity". But in reality, roads are often closed for construction activity or if there is a natural disaster, or for a host of other reasons that make them unsafe.
> This school board should resign and everyone in the district should lobby for allowing school choice. This would help dismantle the power these school boards have and improve education quality.
"The transport board should resign because I cannot go to work on I-123 due to an avalanche warning". That's an extremely simplistic view of a complex public health disaster that's currently affecting us.
[+] [-] djrogers|5 years ago|reply
There's a reason the "U.S." doesn't allow that - education is left to the states by the US constitution. That said, there are many states where you can do what you propose - not all of them, and some make it easier than others, but it's not against federal law to do so.
[+] [-] ryandrake|5 years ago|reply
Minimal risk to child students, but risky to parents and very risky for grandma and grandpa if they live with the children too. I'm blessed that I can work from home, and realize not everyone can, so remote learning has not been that much of a bummer. That said, I am not sending my child back to in-person school unless 1. everyone in my household is vaccinated or 2. the government forces me.
[+] [-] duxup|5 years ago|reply
In the meantime many parents I'm sure are in the terrible situation of keeping their kids home to keep them safe vs... going to work.
[+] [-] pixxel|5 years ago|reply
Seems to mostly work out ok on Twitter...
[+] [-] nradov|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egberts|5 years ago|reply
— Most vocal are the ones with special-need child and often the most neglected category of students with frequent non-compliance to Federal and state laws on special education.
[+] [-] wsostt|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootusrootus|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dantheman|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] balozi|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mensetmanusman|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBC|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jokethrowaway|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geoduck14|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] biffstallion|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] seibelj|5 years ago|reply
The evidence says opening schools is safe. Why the teachers unions have prevented reopening schools en masse is criminal. This audio is damning and shows the attitude towards parents.
[+] [-] ugexe|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rovr138|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goatinaboat|5 years ago|reply
Of course educating children is important but the current method of doing so is not the only possible one, and arguably prioritises the lifestyle of so-called teachers over that of children, parents, and taxpayers in general.
What if the lesson of COVID is that MOOCs are actually better? Or homeschooling is actually better? Why should we go on paying teachers who, despite their bleating, are actually very well compensated for what they do (when they bother to show up).
[+] [-] fasteddie31003|5 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neogodless|5 years ago|reply
That being said, I don't think you're expressing yourself well, or communicating with others well. What we saw in 2020 was a lot of lightly tested theories about what would and would not work, some being encouraged only to later be found to be incorrect. And the 2020 winter has been a complete flood of community transmission. So one approach might be to take a list of available actions to reduce transmission where possible, and hopefully cumulatively make a big difference, even if each action contributes a small amount.
We also know that educators are among Phase 1b for vaccine qualification, so we should be able to imagine that having a largely vaccinated population of teachers should improve both safety of opening schools physically, as well as the optics of doing so without putting our teachers at risk.
[0] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2775875
[+] [-] alistairSH|5 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ajford|5 years ago|reply
I've had to quarantine my oldest since his younger brother is at risk (asthma), and the toll it took on him was insane. We talked with him constantly over voice and video calls, he interacted with his brother over Amazon Echo's drop-in feature and online games, and we tried to do everything we could to make it as 'fun' as we could. He still has nightmares about being locked away from his brother, or that he got his brother really sick.
Why are we pushing for widely opening schools when even half-occupancy is dangerous enough to cause this kind of trauma to a child?
I'm sure I'm gonna get asked why they're in person, but the reasons venture to more personal than I care to post, but in short, they're both in Spec. Ed and weren't coping with virtual learning at all, even after many months of trying to figure it out. Combine that with two working parents and you have a recipe for virtual schooling (or zoom school as my kids call it).
I say we shouldn't open schools until we can vaccinate school staff. Preferably also students, but I realize that since most kids are in low-risk groups that's likely far off. Perhaps for high-risk students with compromised respiratory systems.