[efiecho]

> While dairy is not strictly necessary for grown ups, I recognise that it will be present for some time so we should care about how it is produced. Dairy should be more expensive than it is now, similar to what happens to meat.

Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet. While not impossible to do without, health problems often develops with time. That's why most people (84%) who adopts a vegan diet at some point in their lives, returns to eating meat and dairy again. The first years on a plant diet are usually great, almost everyone feels better than ever. Then after 5-10 years many will experience a steep decline in health, both physical and mental that is resolved with returning to animal products. Of course eating too much animal products and not enough plants will also make you sick, that goes without saying.

So yes, agree very much that we should care how it is produced.

[shever]

> Dairy and meat is part of a healthy diet.

Not actually true. For centuries, the traditional Chinese diet did not include dairy and minimised meat consumption too. The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033)

Speaking as a vegan of over 10 years, who is mentally sharper and healthier than I was a decade ago, I also don't agree with the "steep decline in health, both physical and mental". I do agree that certain nutrients, such as B12, need to be supplemented, but the Institute of Medicine recommends that everyone over the age of 50 supplement B12 whether vegan or not.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> The oft-trotted-out trope of calcium in dairy is misleading (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-and-milk...) and even relatively small amounts of meat and dairy increase the possibility of prostate cancer (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18398033)

From your link:

While calcium and dairy can lower the risk of osteoporosis and colon cancer, high intake can increase the risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.

It increases the probability of developing some diseases and lowers that of developing others.

[dkersten]

I don't have the source handy and couldn't be bothered looking for it... its my understanding that dairy is not necessary in a human diet. It doesn't contain anything that isn't easier or healthier to get from other sources and in some cases isn't really beneficial either. Studies have also shown that milk is not a good calcium source, either (although a very quick google didn't find sources to back that up, so maybe its not accurate). The advice I heard from one doctor was: if you enjoy dairy, consume it in moderation, but don't rely on it for nutrition.

[codemac]

Where does 84% come from? Would love to see a cited source, so I can understand your point better.

Re: health without meat & dairy: B12 and other vitamins missing in vegetables are also missing in our meat, which is why all chicken, pigs, and cows are fed B12 vitamins in their feed.

If you stop eating meat and dairy all together, you have to supplement B12 - but most Americans are B12 deficient either way, similar to vitamin D.

Finally - eating meat and dairy also leads to health problems, see: heart disease. I know it's complex, but dairy is definitely not a required part of a diet, and is why humans don't feed their young human milk after infancy.

[kayodelycaon]

> While not impossible to do without, health problems often develops with time.

I beg to differ here. I'm allergic to all dairy products (protein allergy), and I haven't had any problem keeping a healthy diet.

Dairy isn't at all necessary for survival after you're able to eat and digest solid food. In fact, most mammals and 65% of humans develop lactose intolerance by adulthood.

Meat? That's a bit more difficult to replace in a completely vegan diet without vitamin supplements.

[SavantIdiot]

More FUD from vegetarian haters. Please stop. Yes, 15 year old US vegans can be insufferable, just like libertarians who discover Ayn Rand at the same age.

In India it is estimated that 23-37% of the population is vegetarian or vegan [1]. In a country of 1billion, that's like an entire vegetarian United States. It is absolutely fine to live a life as vegan/vegetarian.

Also interesting you don't seem to have done any research on the health issues caused by eating red meat and dairy. Want to give that a go?

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122

[Falling3]

> [health problems are] why most people (84%) who adopts a vegan diet at some point in their lives, returns to eating meat and dairy again

How did you come to that conclusion and what data do you have to support it? The overwhelming majority of ex-vegans I know did so because of either convenience or missing specific foods.