Same here in germany.
When we hear the word master, most people think of the master in karate kid or the master degree of a university.
I think only in the usa people are so full of hate that they directly think of bad stuff.
The funny thing is, I don't think very many people thought of "bad stuff" before this idiotic culture war planted it in everyone's mind, even if in a negative light.
I would bet that most people didn't have any idea that words like "grandfather" or "blacklist" had (or didn't have) any racist history.
Wouldn't it have been better to just let the words outgrow their history? These words were already dead or dying as racist terms. Not any more.
I don't know, but it seems plausible that awareness of the term's origin might well be considerably higher among those whose own father or grandfather was disenfranchised by one of the original grandfather clauses.
I at least was intellectually gratified to learn about it.
> In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling. By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017.
In the Netherlands, which unlike Germany was significantly involved in the transatlantic slave trade, AFAIK the word meester never had any connotations of slavery, only of expertise and teaching ability (as in a guild master).
It's still used to refer to a male teacher, particularly in elementary schools, as well as being the title used by lawyers.
Or slavendrijver, which is still a very derogatory way to point out exploitative behavior.
I think an important difference between ex-colonial European powers and the US is that the (ethnic) slavery did not take place on European soil. Most colonies were operated with very few Europeans to oversee, and as such people were not as exposed to it as people in the US, where masters and slaves would perhaps not live in the same part of town, but also not a continent away. So this may explain why those terms seem inoffensive/only have their meaning outside of the slavery context in Europe.
I wouldn't say they are full of hate. Slavery has defined the country and has repercussions still.
But I'm really worried about how we import everything American to Germany without thinking twice.
Left newspapers have started to write BIPoC everywhere when it comes to domestic issues. What exactly are the indigenous people of Germany? Even blacks are relatively rare. It would make much more sense to coin an acronym that includes Jews, Sinti and Roma, given our sordid history. But we simply take what American culture has thought up.
We have problems to integrate Turkish or Russian immigrants and their children as Germans, not as people from elsewhere. As well as the refugees from Syria.
> What exactly are the indigenous people of Germany?
Ha! I remember a drunken night with a north-american colleague; he asked why didn't we have indigenous people here in Europe. Then he suddenly realized the answer: oh, but it is you, you all are!
I'm in no way a native speaker - but even I recognize that in English 'master' has - and always had - many different meanings. One of them completely equal to the German 'Meister'.
It is all about context. Question is, why certain groups emphasize - or better: impose deceivingly by altering him - the wrong context to a crystal-clear situation.
It is the only right association because it's the same word coming from "magister" in Latin and which traveled to become maestro in Italian, meister in German, maestre and then maitre in French and finally master in English.
"I'm in the USA. I think only in Germany are people so full of themselves that they over-generalize entire nations with their own ignorant assumptions."
That would be a rather rude, dare I say hateful thing for me to say, wouldn't it? In reality, I really enjoyed all the places in Germany I've visited, and most of my interactions with German folk that I've interacted with socially and professionally over the years. I especially enjoyed taking a technical and engineering German language course, so I can appreciate words like "Kaftfahrzeug-Haftpflichtversicherung" and "benzinbetriebenes Motorsystem". I wouldn't think to make such a comment about the German people, like you did about people in the USA.
Germany is a really bad example though. The German way is to pretend racism just doesn't exist - today is the aniversary of a racist, arson attack that happened in 1994 killing 7 people (one of them pregnant) where the official line is still "the guy was just crazy what can you do ?!".
If you want to transplant the "master"-example, look at all the discussions of how they name certain sauces,schnitzels and deserts as well as a weird insistance that offensively named streets, underground-stations and (for some reason) pharmacies "must not need to be renamed, why would you even be offended".
Germany is not the example to go with concerning offensive language.
You just showed the problem: Mixing completely different things and pretending it's the same. The parent comment and the parent-parent and the submitted text all talked about something, you come up with something else.
> look at all the discussions of how they name certain sauces,schnitzels and deserts
Okay I do - and that is exactly the useless actions that the submitted text and this discussion is about. For some reason you just ignore all that was said and just repeat those exact criticized points as if nothing happened.
I don't buy the assertion that the German way is to pretend racism just doesn't exist.
There are racists, and fascists, neo-nazis and old-nazis. They do exist, it's just that they don't pose that widespread of a problem in every day life, like it does in other western countries.
I'd say gender (in)equality is something you will encounter much more often in every day life over there.
Of course everyone would have a different feeling towards those words. Every country has their own history. I think it is a positive step in the US going through all these hurdles to address their past. US has the power and the economic leverage to really step to next level, it can afford it.
Every country is different. Developing world wouldn't care about rights, because they have to make cakes as fast as possible, and developed world can spend much time on being fair. It is something we should do.
Is a name change really that difficult for everyone? I remember when I first saw 'main' branch on Azure, yes, I have to slow down a bit, is it the end of world? It means something important for the US, and would be good for the future generation, I think I can afford the personal inconvenience. We, developers, are having the best job in this world, do we really need to get pissed off for this?
> Is a name change really that difficult for everyone?
It's just a complete misunderstanding of the topic. Changing "master" branches simply confuses signified and signifier, and the fact that multiple signified can have the same signifier (like the signifier stool and the signified faeces and a thing to sit on. Removing the word doesn't remove the concept.
If these companies actually wanted to work for diversity, they could just do exactly that: employ more people from other backgrounds, or have extra internships for early orientiation in high school, or fund computer labs schools in poor neighbourhoods and so on.
Edit: As an illustration of how this doesn't affect the underlying meaning: In Germany there's a similar discourse going on, and the result is that the German radical right also started to talk about migrants instead of aliens or foreigners. But they didn't change their attitudes at all! They just adapted to the new word and kept their old concept.
>Is a name change really that difficult for everyone?
So whole world has to change because US has its core problems?
>We, developers, are having the best job in this world, do we really need to get pissed off for this?
do we?
spend thousands of hours of your free time in front of computer just to learn stuff,
then spend 3.5/5 or even more years for degree
then stay competitive / in touch with tech as a part of life style
just to have office/remote job with good pay?
is this "best job"? seems decent, but I wouldn't call it "the best", especially in countries where programmers do not have really outstanding pay like in SF.
creato|5 years ago
I would bet that most people didn't have any idea that words like "grandfather" or "blacklist" had (or didn't have) any racist history.
Wouldn't it have been better to just let the words outgrow their history? These words were already dead or dying as racist terms. Not any more.
pydry|5 years ago
And, policing language generates a spectacular amount of distracting, harmless (to Microsoft) controversy.
ekianjo|5 years ago
Faulty pattern recognition machine at blame.
caf|5 years ago
I at least was intellectually gratified to learn about it.
offby37years|5 years ago
> In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling. By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017.
Ichthypresbyter|5 years ago
It's still used to refer to a male teacher, particularly in elementary schools, as well as being the title used by lawyers.
A slave owner was simply a slavenhouder.
brnt|5 years ago
I think an important difference between ex-colonial European powers and the US is that the (ethnic) slavery did not take place on European soil. Most colonies were operated with very few Europeans to oversee, and as such people were not as exposed to it as people in the US, where masters and slaves would perhaps not live in the same part of town, but also not a continent away. So this may explain why those terms seem inoffensive/only have their meaning outside of the slavery context in Europe.
Tomte|5 years ago
But I'm really worried about how we import everything American to Germany without thinking twice.
Left newspapers have started to write BIPoC everywhere when it comes to domestic issues. What exactly are the indigenous people of Germany? Even blacks are relatively rare. It would make much more sense to coin an acronym that includes Jews, Sinti and Roma, given our sordid history. But we simply take what American culture has thought up.
myspy|5 years ago
enriquto|5 years ago
Ha! I remember a drunken night with a north-american colleague; he asked why didn't we have indigenous people here in Europe. Then he suddenly realized the answer: oh, but it is you, you all are!
unknown|5 years ago
[deleted]
gsich|5 years ago
goatinaboat|5 years ago
I don't think this is true. What percentage of White Americans, during the period of slavery, owned any slaves? Was it even 1%?
It is one facet of American history yes, but it is very far from the "definition" of the country.
cabite|5 years ago
[deleted]
funcDropShadow|5 years ago
mbeex|5 years ago
It is all about context. Question is, why certain groups emphasize - or better: impose deceivingly by altering him - the wrong context to a crystal-clear situation.
ekianjo|5 years ago
mikaeluman|5 years ago
sgtnoodle|5 years ago
That would be a rather rude, dare I say hateful thing for me to say, wouldn't it? In reality, I really enjoyed all the places in Germany I've visited, and most of my interactions with German folk that I've interacted with socially and professionally over the years. I especially enjoyed taking a technical and engineering German language course, so I can appreciate words like "Kaftfahrzeug-Haftpflichtversicherung" and "benzinbetriebenes Motorsystem". I wouldn't think to make such a comment about the German people, like you did about people in the USA.
vermilingua|5 years ago
yosamino|5 years ago
If you want to transplant the "master"-example, look at all the discussions of how they name certain sauces,schnitzels and deserts as well as a weird insistance that offensively named streets, underground-stations and (for some reason) pharmacies "must not need to be renamed, why would you even be offended".
Germany is not the example to go with concerning offensive language.
nosianu|5 years ago
> look at all the discussions of how they name certain sauces,schnitzels and deserts
Okay I do - and that is exactly the useless actions that the submitted text and this discussion is about. For some reason you just ignore all that was said and just repeat those exact criticized points as if nothing happened.
linza|5 years ago
There are racists, and fascists, neo-nazis and old-nazis. They do exist, it's just that they don't pose that widespread of a problem in every day life, like it does in other western countries.
I'd say gender (in)equality is something you will encounter much more often in every day life over there.
mbeex|5 years ago
What exactly do you know about "the" German way?
read_if_gay_|5 years ago
I don't know if and where you've been to Germany, but having went to school there entire years of our history class were dedicated to the Nazis.
HerbsMan|5 years ago
[deleted]
powerapple|5 years ago
Every country is different. Developing world wouldn't care about rights, because they have to make cakes as fast as possible, and developed world can spend much time on being fair. It is something we should do.
Is a name change really that difficult for everyone? I remember when I first saw 'main' branch on Azure, yes, I have to slow down a bit, is it the end of world? It means something important for the US, and would be good for the future generation, I think I can afford the personal inconvenience. We, developers, are having the best job in this world, do we really need to get pissed off for this?
bildung|5 years ago
It's just a complete misunderstanding of the topic. Changing "master" branches simply confuses signified and signifier, and the fact that multiple signified can have the same signifier (like the signifier stool and the signified faeces and a thing to sit on. Removing the word doesn't remove the concept.
If these companies actually wanted to work for diversity, they could just do exactly that: employ more people from other backgrounds, or have extra internships for early orientiation in high school, or fund computer labs schools in poor neighbourhoods and so on.
Edit: As an illustration of how this doesn't affect the underlying meaning: In Germany there's a similar discourse going on, and the result is that the German radical right also started to talk about migrants instead of aliens or foreigners. But they didn't change their attitudes at all! They just adapted to the new word and kept their old concept.
tester34|5 years ago
So whole world has to change because US has its core problems?
>We, developers, are having the best job in this world, do we really need to get pissed off for this?
do we?
spend thousands of hours of your free time in front of computer just to learn stuff, then spend 3.5/5 or even more years for degree
then stay competitive / in touch with tech as a part of life style
just to have office/remote job with good pay?
is this "best job"? seems decent, but I wouldn't call it "the best", especially in countries where programmers do not have really outstanding pay like in SF.
FeepingCreature|5 years ago
unknown|5 years ago
[deleted]